Hi.
THIS THREAD exploded into an argument about whether FCB is a class feature or not. Since it's completely irrelevant to the OP's question I decided I should try to remedy the situation by creating a new thread for the argument to continue here.
So, is FCB a class feature? Why/why not?
Before this gets too far I'll add this: Does it matter? Why/why not?
That thread wasn't an argument, it was an indictment...
The fact that FCB aren't a class feature isn't even something new, it has already been brought up many years ago in response to this FAQ about New Spells Known.
And some of the loudest yellers have even been commenting on that thread 7 years ago, which proves stubbornness beyond a dwarf's most feverish dreams.
Before this gets too far I'll add this: Does it matter? Why/why not?
It hardly ever matters. It only matters in regards to things about class features, like in the threads mentioned above.
However, it also matters a lot with Retraining: There's no option to retrain an FCB, and an FCB isn't lost when retraining out of a class since it's not a class feature (you keep all character features like feats, ability score increases and so on).
So if you have "Rogue" as your Favored Class and you reach a new character level, just choose Rogue as your class to advance, then you get the FCB. Afterwards, retrain out of Rogue into whatever you want and you keep your FCB (though it's dormant like a feat if prerequisites are lost).
It's a nice exploit to gather up all the FCBs you want, even those of different classes. As a Half-Elf, just combine it with the ever-cool Paragon Surge to get the Racial/Planar Heritage feat and choose the race with the best FCB before advancing a level and you can get any (humanoid or outsider) race's FCB for a class, even if you end up with 0 class levels of that class.
Not that it's particularly useful in 99% of cases, but sometimes it is, for example if you're a multiclass Rogue 2/Other X and want a few more Rogue Talents: just grab them via FCB.
They are not class features, but they can grant increases to existing class features, such as bonus feats, hexes, spells known, etc.
As far as it mattering ... it really doesn't. I got the impression that people just did not like the implication that bonus feats for the warpriest gained through FCB would get the perk of using the warpriest level as the BAB for any requirements. Kind of how people did not like Skald's getting extra rage powers to share via taking extra rage power (which I still, and always will, disagree with). In short, its a knee jerk reaction.
As far as retraining goes, it is an optional system and room should be made for retraining FCB when the class it was taken with was retrained. And loopholes and exploits stomped out of existence.
Favored class bonus is not a class feature because it is not tied to a particular class. Class features are by definition a feature of a particular class. Some classes share features with outer classes, but that is beside the point. While a FCB is not a class feature it is a benefit of the class. As such when you retrain a level to a different class you would lose that benefit. If your new class is a favored class then you would gain the FCB of that class.
Example: Mark is playing a ranger 5/rogue 2, and has decided he'd like to retrain one of his ranger levels into a rogue level (so he has to find a 3rd-level rogue). When he completes the training, he immediately loses all benefits from taking ranger level 5 (base attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, Hit Dice, hit points, skill ranks, and class features), then gains 1 level in rogue, immediately gaining all the benefits of rogue level 3. Mark's character is now a ranger 4/rogue 3. This retraining did not change Mark's 7th-level feat.
If the FCB is a spell, or a feat those can retrained under the rules for feats or spells known.
ah, i get it. So because the Warpriest FCB Bonus Feats aren’t a class feature, you can retrain them to any feat without restriction. Slick.
This is not an argument made in good faith.
Favored Class Options
Human Gain 1/6 of a new bonus combat feat.
If you truly believe you're correct about your assumption then argue it so that people can respond.
The retraining rules are specific that feats and spell can be retrained. The fact that those may or may not be class features does not matter because you can already retrain feats. As to retraining to any feat the rules also specifically forbid that.
You may change one feat to another through retraining. Retraining a feat takes 5 days with a character who has the feat you want. The old feat can't be one you used as a prerequisite for a feat, class feature, archetype, prestige class, or other ability. If the old feat is a bonus feat granted by a class feature, you must replace it with a feat that you could choose using that class feature.
Sorry but no retraining a warpriests bonus feat to anything but another combat feat.
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Many of these alternate class rewards add only 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, or 1/6 to a roll (rather than 1) each time the reward is selected, or add 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, or 1/6 to a class ability (such as adding to a bloodrager’s number of bloodrages per day or a swashbuckler’s total number of panache points).
Warpriest: Gain 1/6 of a new bonus combat feat.
Bonus Feats: At 3rd level and every 3 levels thereafter, a warpriest gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement. These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats. The warpriest must meet the prerequisites for these feats, but he treats his warpriest level as his base attack bonus for these feats (in addition to base attack bonuses gained from other classes and racial Hit Dice). Finally, for the purposes of these feats, the warpriest can select feats that have a minimum number of fighter levels as a prerequisite, treating his warpriest level as his fighter level.
The Warpriest bonus isn't a bonus to a roll.
The only other option that increases by 1/6 available is a bonus to a class ability.The Warpriest doesn't have a class ability "Bonus combat feat", but he has a class ability called "Bonus Feats" and the feat must be selected between the combat feats.
So either the FCB doesn't do anything because the Warpriest hasn't a feature "Bonus combat feat" or it gives the class feature "Bonus feat", limited to combat feats (not a real change), but with all the benefits of the Warpriest Bonus feat.
In every instance, the rules explicitly say that you get a class feature, not a feat. Then you can take the feat with the class feature.
In a roundabout way, but the FCB says 'Warpriest Bonus Feat’.
Reality: "Gain 1/6 of a new bonus combat feat."
Hallucination: "the FCB says 'Warpriest Bonus Feat’."
After taking this FCB 6 times, you can get a combat feat of your choice. Since it isn't granted by a class feature, retraining it to any other feat is perfectly fine.
I would answer the question that is the topic of this thread with another question: For what purpose(s) is a favored class bonus possibly a class feature? For the purpose of directly retraining a favored class bonus gained at a particular level, it probably isn't. But any argument that you should be able to keep a favored class bonus for a class level that you retrained out of should definitely be a non-starter.
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Reality: "Gain 1/6 of a new bonus combat feat."
Hallucination: "the FCB says 'Warpriest Bonus Feat’."
After taking this FCB 6 times, you can get a combat feat of your choice. Since it isn't granted by a class feature, retraining it to any other feat is perfectly fine.
The rule says clearly that you either get to "add only 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, or 1/6 to a roll" or "add 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, or 1/6 to a class ability ". No option to get 1/6 of a feat.
So care to show where you find "get a combat feat of your choice."?Maybe from something that doesn't exist?
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Hallucination: "the FCB says 'Warpriest Bonus Feat’."
You know, there is a lot to be said about being polite even when one disagrees with someone else. It serves no purpose but it inflate your own sense of ego and makes you no allies.
After taking this FCB 6 times, you can get a combat feat of your choice. Since it isn't granted by a class feature, retraining it to any other feat is perfectly fine.
Any other combat feat, actually.
You know, there is a lot to be said about being polite even when one disagrees with someone else. It serves no purpose but it inflate your own sense of ego and makes you no allies.
If someone hallucinates that he's able to fly and asks you to move aside so he can jump off a high building, is it polite to move aside or to stand firm?
After taking this FCB 6 times, you can get a combat feat of your choice. Since it isn't granted by a class feature, retraining it to any other feat is perfectly fine.Any other combat feat, actually.
The limitation to feat choices only applies to feats granted by class features, but FCBs aren't class features, so there is no limitation on retraining from FCBs.
I treat FCB like a Skill-- not a class feature, and I allow FCB to be retrained as per retraining Skill Ranks. Not sure if this is right or not, but I haven't had any issues with FCB by following Skill Rank rules since day 1.
As far as the Warpriest retraining issue, this issue becomes fixed when you "retrain" the FCB skill ranks to 0/6 and then back to 6/6, now you can choose a new Bonus Combat Feat (not retrain that feat into whatever feat you feel like because class feature blah blah).
You know, there is a lot to be said about being polite even when one disagrees with someone else. It serves no purpose but it inflate your own sense of ego and makes you no allies.If someone hallucinates that he's able to fly and asks you to move aside so he can jump off a high building, is it polite to move aside or to stand firm?
The limitation to feat choices only applies to feats granted by class features, but FCBs aren't class features, so there is no limitation on retraining from FCBs.After taking this FCB 6 times, you can get a combat feat of your choice. Since it isn't granted by a class feature, retraining it to any other feat is perfectly fine.Any other combat feat, actually.
But that argument would suggest that you could retrain the Skill Focus feat received by a standard half-elf to any other feat, as it also was not received from a class feature. I think it is rather obvious that all limitations on the original feat choice other than level at which it was originally received really should be respected when retraining.
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You know, there is a lot to be said about being polite even when one disagrees with someone else. It serves no purpose but it inflate your own sense of ego and makes you no allies.If someone hallucinates that he's able to fly and asks you to move aside so he can jump off a high building, is it polite to move aside or to stand firm?
The limitation to feat choices only applies to feats granted by class features, but FCBs aren't class features, so there is no limitation on retraining from FCBs.After taking this FCB 6 times, you can get a combat feat of your choice. Since it isn't granted by a class feature, retraining it to any other feat is perfectly fine.Any other combat feat, actually.But that argument would suggest that you could retrain the Skill Focus feat received by a standard half-elf to any other feat, as it also was not received from a class feature. I think it is rather obvious that all limitations on the original feat choice other than level at which it was originally received really should be respected when retraining.
Actually that whole retrain half elf bonus feat argument already happened in another thread when these points were brought up
(Unless I hallucinated it)
If someone hallucinates that he's able to fly and asks you to move aside so he can jump off a high building, is it polite to move aside or to stand firm?
Do you have a problem with nuance, or do you actually believe the two situations are at all relative in comparison to this particular matter? How does one's interpretation of how an optional rule system at all apply to the life or death risk of someone jumping off a cliff?
It is shame you resorted to exaggerating the issue to such a degree. Such attempts are usually just a way of shutting down voices of dissent in order to 'win' an argument.
The limitation to feat choices only applies to feats granted by class features, but FCBs aren't class features, so there is no limitation on retraining from FCBs.
Perhaps there should be, at least for players like yourself. As it is now, that is a non-issue. As an optional system, the GM gets to make the calls and a reasonable GM shuts down such loopholes.
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Theaitetos has the ability not to see the stuff he doesn't like.
FCB can't give a feat. It is in the rules how it works:
Many of these alternate class rewards add only 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, or 1/6 to a roll (rather than 1) each time the reward is selected, or add 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, or 1/6 to a class ability (such as adding to a bloodrager’s number of bloodrages per day or a swashbuckler’s total number of panache points).
There is no text allowing the FCB to give pieces of a feat. So either the Warpiest FCB gives a piece of the Warpriest Bonus FEat feature (and it is the Warpriest bonus feat feature as you get it from the Warpriest FCB) or it does nothing.
It is fun and sad to see how he accuses the other of having hallucinations while refusing to see the text of the rules.
There is no text allowing the FCB to give pieces of a feat.
I like that. This isn't hallucination. This is pure madness: "There is no rule that allows this rule to rule it like that." XD
And it's also wrong! \o/
In most cases, these benefits are gained on a level-by-level basis — your character gains the specified incremental benefit each time she gains a level. Unless otherwise noted, these benefits always stack with themselves. For example, a human with paladin as a favored class may choose to gain 1 point of energy resistance each time she gains a level; choosing this benefit twice increases this resistance bonus to 2, 10 times raises it to 10, and so on.
1/6 + 1/6 + 1/6 + 1/6 + 1/6 + 1/6
= 6 * 1/6 [according to the distributive property]= 1 [according to the rules governing multiplication of a fraction with a whole number]
After enduring this harrowing amount of higher mathematics we can now safely conclude that 6 * 1/6 of a bonus combat feat = 1 bonus combat feat.
You should be glad that you have someone with a college diploma in mathematics like me around, right? :)
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You should be glad that you have someone with a college diploma in mathematics like me around, right? :)
*eye twitches* *sigh*
Ugh, I can't say anything nice right now. Just be aware that you have missed the entire nuance of the argument, even if you think you are right.
If I were to have a Half-elf Warpriest6/Rogue5 retrain their 6th level of warpriest into rogue and with multitalented had warpriest and rogue as favored classes... Would I retain the bonus combat feat from the warpriest FCB (keeping in mind that half elves can select from the human and elf FCB options in addition to the half-elf options) or would that feat be immediately lost the same way one granted by the bonus feats class feature would be? If it is kept, am I prevented from choosing a FCB for my 6th level of rogue from this retraining since my Xth character level FCB is “warpriest bonus feat 6/6”?
You want to sit there and say that these things are unaffected by retraining out of class levels as they are tied to character level... look at the consequences of that... if they are purely character features then they create one gigantic clusterf~!# of a problem when it comes to retaining. If you treat them as the class features hat they improve on the otherhand, all of the problems resolve themselves with no hassle.
if they are purely character features then they create one gigantic clusterf#$+ of a problem when it comes to retaining
I fail to see how that is a rule issue. If the rules are broken, then they are broken and it is not my job to lie about them just to make them appear unbroken. You are free to handle them any way you want in your group, forbid or change things to make rules fit your playstyle, and that is perfectly fine.
I am just in disagreement with the notion that personal preferences should compel you to lie about the rules as they are.
I am also convinced that pointing out issues to resolve is much more helpful in the long-term than to lie about things to cover them up. The 2nd Edition rules of Pathfinder -- no matter how much you like/hate/feel about them -- are doing a better job with rules issues right out of the gate. For example, many contentious issues involving Actions or Energy/Damage and so forth were addressed in the core rules of PF 2E; just look at this beautiful page of rules:
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=340
I'll bet 100 black onyx gems that year-long discussions about energy/damage issues lead to this development of a comprehensive overview of all energy types, something that PF 1E never had.
If everyone just lied about rules problems and pretended there aren't any broken things, we would have never gotten such an improvement.
RPG rule systems are extremely difficult to design and issues do arise. Unintentional ability combinations, unlucky formulations, grammatical problems & word orders, ... make things complex and complicated and sometimes lead to broken things.
In PF-speak: "Chaotic (Good) has no place in a rules forum, this place is for Lawful people only."
The Advice forum might be the place you seek, opening threads about "How best to tweak the XYZ rule for Gameplay?" If you make such a thread, I won't bother coming in with rules lawyering.
So, which question is it you really want to have addressed: "Is FCB is a class feature" or "How to tweak the FCB rules to prevent abuse"?
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There is no text allowing the FCB to give pieces of a feat.I like that. This isn't hallucination. This is pure madness: "There is no rule that allows this rule to rule it like that." XD
Ok, what you're missing here is this.
FCB doeen't grant you 1/6 of a bonus feat, it grants you 1/6 of a class feature. Some of those class features could be bonus feats, but the FCB isn't directly giving you feats, the feats still come from class features.
Many of these alternate class rewards add only 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, or 1/6 to a roll (rather than 1) each time the reward is selected, or add 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, or 1/6 to a class ability (such as adding to a bloodrager’s number of bloodrages per day or a swashbuckler’s total number of panache points).
Every fractional FCB is adding either to a roll, or to a Class Feature. So when the Warpriest Human FCB says "+1/6 of a Bonus Combat Feat" it's referring to the Warpriest's "Bonus Feats" class feature. It uses the term "Combat Feats" as repetition to help the player understand what feats they can and cannot choose. There are plenty of places where this kind of redundancy is used in the rules so that players don't have to look up obscure rules every time they choose a feat/spell/class-ability.
Now, if you want to refute this rule - or this interpretation of the rules - you can, but it's not a hallucination. The easiest way to refute it would be to find some fractional alternate FCB that clearly aren't connected to rolls or existing class features.
And for the record, the only thing your "hallucinations" comment proved is that you didn't understand the argument. This may not be your fault - communication takes a minimum of 2 people. In the future if you're not following someone's train of thought try asking them to clarify rather of throwing out insults.
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There is no text allowing the FCB to give pieces of a feat.I like that. This isn't hallucination. This is pure madness: "There is no rule that allows this rule to rule it like that." XDOk, what you're missing here is this.
FCB doeen't grant you 1/6 of a bonus feat, it grants you 1/6 of a class feature. Some of those class features could be bonus feats, but the FCB isn't directly giving you feats, the feats still come from class features.
Many of these alternate class rewards add only 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, or 1/6 to a roll (rather than 1) each time the reward is selected, or add 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, or 1/6 to a class ability (such as adding to a bloodrager’s number of bloodrages per day or a swashbuckler’s total number of panache points).Every fractional FCB is adding either to a roll, or to a Class Feature. So when the Warpriest Human FCB says "+1/6 of a Bonus Combat Feat" it's referring to the Warpriest's "Bonus Feats" class feature. It uses the term "Combat Feats" as repetition to help the player understand what feats they can and cannot choose. There are plenty of places where this kind of redundancy is used in the rules so that players don't have to look up obscure rules every time they choose a feat/spell/class-ability.
Now, if you want to refute this rule - or this interpretation of the rules - you can, but it's not a hallucination. The easiest way to refute it would be to find some fractional alternate FCB that clearly aren't connected to rolls or existing class features.
And for the record, the only thing your "hallucinations" comment proved is that you didn't understand the argument. This may not be your fault - communication takes a minimum of 2 people. In the future if you're not following someone's train of thought try asking them to clarify rather of throwing out insults.
Playing Devil's advocate over here, but
The following options are available to all Kitsune who have the listed favored class.
PFS Legal All (Blood of the Beast pg. 12): Gain 1/6 of a new Magical Tail feat. Any kitsune character can choose this bonus upon gaining a level in her favored class.
I notice that the quotes defining FCB from the APG and those from ACG lead to somewhat different ideas. I wonder if the fact that different parties using different rules is contributing to the disagreement here.
Playing Devil's advocate over here, but
The following options are available to all Kitsune who have the listed favored class.
PFS Legal All (Blood of the Beast pg. 12): Gain 1/6 of a new Magical Tail feat. Any kitsune character can choose this bonus upon gaining a level in her favored class.
Great!
I wouldn't consider this proof on its own (this seems by its nature to be an exception to the rule) but this is the kind of thing we're looking for.
If you (or others) can find more of these then there's an actual argument.
Ok, what you're missing here is this.
FCB doeen't grant you 1/6 of a bonus feat, it grants you 1/6 of a class feature. Some of those class features could be bonus feats, but the FCB isn't directly giving you feats, the feats still come from class features.
That's not true. This FCB says absolutely nothing about any class features. It literally says you get 1/6 of a bonus combat feat. It doesn't say "You get a bonus feat according to the XYZ Class's ABC feature."
Every fractional FCB is adding either to a roll, or to a Class Feature.
Again, nowhere does it say that at all.
To take another math analogy: "Many integers are divisible by 2. Are all integers divisible by 2?"
So when the Warpriest Human FCB says "+1/6 of a Bonus Combat Feat" it's referring to the Warpriest's "Bonus Feats" class feature.
The FCB makes absolutely no reference to any class or class feature at all. It doesn't reference Warpriests. It references combat feats that you get as a bonus. Here's the text again:
"Gain 1/6 of a new bonus combat feat."
Do you see the words "warpriest" or "class" in that sentence?
Lastly, as I pointed out before, word order is important: the "combat" in between "bonus" and "feat" makes any connection to the Warpriest's "bonus feat" class feature a non-starter.
In fact, this FCB would be much stronger if it were a reference to the Warpriest's Bonus Feat class feature, because the player could then use his Warpriest levels as Fighter levels & BAB for the prerequisites of that combat feat.
Maybe it was intended that way (RAI), but sticking to the text (RAW) does not allow such an interpretation. You can't just imagine words you want into sentences, and imagine other words you don't want as not being there.
Again, nowhere does it say that at all.
To take another math analogy: "Many integers are divisible by 2. Are all integers divisible by 2?"
This is a good argument.
"Gain 1/6 of a new bonus combat feat."
Do you see the words "warpriest" or "class" in that sentence?
Lastly, as I pointed out before, word order is important: the "combat" in between "bonus" and "feat" makes any connection to the Warpriest's "bonus feat" class feature a non-starter.
This isn't.
There are many many times in the PF rules that there are redundant rules to help clarify, eg. the FLY SPELL tells you that your movement speed is reduced if you wear Medium or Heavy armour, but it doesn't need to as those rules are already covered in the Encumberance section. They say it again so that you don't have to look up other rules.
Likewise the "Bonus Combat Feat" is simply redundancy, to explain what feats you're choosing withiut having to look up other rules.
On top of that, Paizo has said many, MANY times that they don't write in "Legalese", they write in plain english. The difference between an auxiliary word or a comma or whatever other minor grammatical feature is almost never proof that something is the same/different.
Ok, now where were we?
Oh right, you actually did make a good argument - you argued the interpretation of the rule that was cited. This is a good argument. Any thoughts in rebuttal?
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While the favored class bonus is not a class feature it can grant extra class features.
A sorcerer has a class feature called spells a part of this class feature are spells known. Several races have FCB of extra spells known. When the characters chooses FCB of +1 spell known that is adding a spell to the sub feature spells know of the class feature spells. This allows the sorcerer to cast the spell granted from the FCB using his sorcerer spell slots. If the extra spell known was not part of the class feature spells the sorcerer would not be able to use his sorcerer spell slots to cast the extra spell. Obviously this is not the case because then the FCB of +1 spell known would be completely useless.
The same thing is true with a warpriests FCB of 1/6 of a bonus combat feat. The only difference is that the warpriest has to take this FCB 6 times before he gains the feat. This also means that the feat chosen does follow the rules of the warpriest bonus feats. So he treats his warpriest level as his BAB and as his level as a fighter for feats he can choose.
If the character retrains his levels of warpriest to something else he loses the benefit of the FCB for that level which can lead to him losing a feat he gained from FCB. If he retains the level to some other class that is a favored class he would gain the benefit of FCB for that level. So let’s say you have a 6th level half elf warpriest with favored class of both sorcerer and warpriest who gains a bonus combat feat by taking the FCB of 1/6 of a bonus combat feat. The warpriest retrain 1 level from warpriest to sorcerer. He loses the bonus feat because he lost the benefit of FCB so now only has 5/6 of a bonus combat feat. He does gain the benefit of FCB on his sorcerer level and can choose to gain +1 to spells known. If the picks up another level of warpriest he can take the FCB of 1/6 of a bonus combat feat and regain the bonus combat feat.
Anyone stating that you the warpriest’s FCB does not grant extra feats that follow the rules of the class feature bonus feats should be congratulated for being very uncommon as they obviously have absolutely no common sense.
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While the favored class bonus is not a class feature it can grant extra class features.
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Anyone stating that you the warpriest’s FCB does not grant extra feats that follow the rules of the class feature bonus feats should be congratulated for being very uncommon as they obviously have absolutely no common sense.
I think what people are arguing is that the favoured class bonus IS a class feature, because if it weren't many of them wouldn't work.
If it's NOT a class feature then the Human Warpriest FCB just adds feats, the Human Sorcerer FCB grants you spells that you can't cast, etc.
If it IS a class feature then all those problems go away. They're class features so they're covered by the FAQ and grant their respective abilities to the class without any hiccups.
What you're proposing is that the FCB themselves are NOT class features, but the bonuses they grant ARE.
Full disclosure, this is where I stand too, but ... if I'm honest it does seem a needlessly complicated way to read things to get them to work how you want to.
Is there a good reason not to simply say: "Yes they're class features" or "No they aren't" and follow the consequenses of that decision fully? Is there a good argument that this complicated way of thinking is the correct one?
The reason I am going with the more complex view is that FCB is supposed to be something that cannot be changed once chosen. By treating it a class feature that allows the restraining rules to change it. Treating it like a class benefit instead of a class feature means that unless the ability granted by the FCB has a rule that allows it to be retrained it cannot be retrained short of retraining the level to a different class.
So once you choose your FCB it cannot be changed, but the specific ability that it grants may be able to be changed. So if the sorcerer chooses a HP or skill point they cannot at a later point decided they would rather have the spell. If the sorcerer chose a spell he can retrain it to a different spell of the same level as the previous one, but not a HP or skill point.
The reason I am going with the more complex view is that FCB is supposed to be something that cannot be changed once chosen.
Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but why is your FCB something that can't be retrained?
I thought the whole point of retraining is that you're not stuck with sub-par choices. Saying you can retrain everything except this one choice seems arbitrary and stupid to me. Am I missing something?
The reason I am going with the more complex view is that FCB is supposed to be something that cannot be changed once chosen.Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but why is your FCB something that can't be retrained?
I thought the whole point of retraining is that you're not stuck with sub-par choices. Saying you can retrain everything except this one choice seems arbitrary and stupid to me. Am I missing something?
Simply the fact that the rules for FCB state that your choice can’t be changed combined with the fact that retraining rules have no inclusion of retraining FCB...
Also going to state... personally I agree with the complex stance of “not a class feature but the bonuses they grant are”... it is the only reading that makes any real sense... and as has been pointed out before, pathfinder rules are not written in legalese they are written in plain English... and as with many things in English, if something can be read multiple ways, it is typically the one that makes the most logical sense that is the correct way to read it...
This allows the sorcerer to cast the spell granted from the FCB using his sorcerer spell slots. If the extra spell known was not part of the class feature spells the sorcerer would not be able to use his sorcerer spell slots to cast the extra spell.
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rh1w?Spells-Known-FAQ-and-Favored-Class-Bonus es
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rh1w?Spells-Known-FAQ-and-Favored-Class-Bonus eshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rh1w?Spells-Known-FAQ-and-Favored-Class-Bonus es
How often does it need to be pointed out that this is a real issue and people want(ed) a FAQ on it because of it? FCB is not a class feature, which is a problem in those cases -- or are we going to pretend that all these people in those threads were INT 0 slugs and didn't know what they were talking about?
I mean, the Warpriest Class Feature is literally called “Bonus Feats”. It’s not realistic that they could have made it any more explicitly clear; if it just said “1/6 of a new bonus feat”, despite referencing the class feat fully verbatim, there would be at least 100X more confusion.
"Gain 1/6 of a new Warpriest Bonus Feat."
"Gain 1/6 of a new bonus feat from the Warpriest's Bonus Feats class feature."These aren't realistic?
Also for what it's worth Theaitetos I wasn't making that argument, I was explaining it to you because you seemed to have missed/ignored it. Now that you've seen it and answered it the argument can move on.
No. That was never an argument. It was a disgusting lie.
I called these deceptive practices out many times before: There are people who want the rules to work in a certain way, in THEIR way, and they want to impose this on others; then they start twisting texts to suit their desires, pretend sentences say something that they do not, and then boldly lie into the face of all the others.
It was all a deliberate lie to fool you into believing something that wasn't real.
On top of that, Paizo has said many, MANY times that they don't write in "Legalese", they write in plain english. The difference between an auxiliary word or a comma or whatever other minor grammatical feature is almost never proof that something is the same/different.
That's not an argument to twist the meaning of sentences.
And honestly, this doesn't matter at all, because we are not able to cast Detect Thoughts in real-life to divine the intentions of the rule authors. All we have is their written text. Literally.
If that written text does not accurately reflect the intention of the authors, then the fault lies with them in improper wording. As I said before, I do not debate the RAI portion of the rules, because I'm not able to read the authors' minds; I am debating the rules RAW because I am quite able to read English.
Do you honestly believe the discussions in this rule forum were to improve, if we start ditching the literal texts in order to start wild goose-chases about the elusive intentions behind the words? Be my guest. xD
Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but why is your FCB something that can't be retrained?Simply the fact that the rules for FCB state that your choice can’t be changed combined with the fact that retraining rules have no inclusion of retraining FCB...
Hmmm... well I'm going to go on record as saying that the "FCB can't be changed" isn't relevant since it was written before the retraining rules were introdiced. "Can't be changed" in this case was the same as how feats "can't be changed" once they're chosen.
The non-inclusion in the retraining rules is a more compelling argument though, so you're probably right. Personally I think that's silly, but since this is the Rules forum I don't have anything to refute it.
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Also for what it's worth Theaitetos I wasn't making that argument, I was explaining it to you because you seemed to have missed/ignored it. Now that you've seen it and answered it the argument can move on.No. That was never an argument. It was a disgusting lie.
Ok, first - if it is a lie it's hardly disgusting. We're arguing about an interaction between 2 optional rules, in a game that's an offshoot of a more popular game. If that weren't enough we're arguing about a discontinued edition. This "disgusting" lie effects like ... 12 people. And what effect does it have? If those "disgusting liars" get there way and their rule is implemented in your game and in my game ... who cares? Really how bad would it be? Because I'm not really seeing a problem.
Second - there's a difference between being wrong and lying. You claim not to have the ability to cast Detect Thoughts, but how can we believe that when you so clearly have an insight into the intent of your online adversaries? If you can't or won't guess the intentions of the authors you shouldn't guess the intentions of others on these forums.
So since this thread seems to have quieted down a bit, I have actually come across another potential source of confusion around the idea of FCB as a class feature: Prestige Classes that give "all class features" as a prestige-class-feature.
Specifically these two:
Aligned Class (Ex):
Evangelists come from many different backgrounds, and they show an unusual range of diversity. At 2nd level, the evangelist must choose a class she belonged to before adding the prestige class to be her aligned class. She gains all the class features for this class, essentially adding every evangelist level beyond 1st to her aligned class to determine what class features she gains. She still retains the Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, and skill ranks of the prestige class, but gains all other class features of her aligned class as well as those of the evangelist prestige class.
Mortal Talents:
At 2nd level, a mortal usher must choose a class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. At 2nd level and every 2 levels thereafter, the mortal usher gains the class features of an additional level in his chosen class (for example, a wizard 5/mortal usher 4 would have the arcane bond benefits, caster level, and spells per day of a 7th-level wizard). He still retains the Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, and skill ranks of the prestige class, but gains all other class features of his chosen class at the specified levels.
So if your Favoured Class Bonus is a class feature then levels in either of these two prestige classes would grant you a favoured class bonus appropriate to your "chosen class". If it isn't considered a class feature then it wouldn't.
We do have some text to look to ...
Each character begins play with a single favored class of his choosing—typically, this is the same class as the one he chooses at 1st level. Whenever a character gains a level in his favored class, he receives either + 1 hit point or + 1 skill rank. The choice of favored class cannot be changed once the character is created, and the choice of gaining a hit point or a skill rank each time a character gains a level (including his first level) cannot be changed once made for a particular level. Prestige classes (see Chapter 11) can never be a favored class.
... however since this was written before either of the two Prestige Classes in question I don't think it's referring to this specific rules interaction. This would be a case of the general rule being trumped by the specific rule in the Prestige Classes.
We know it's possible to circumvent this rule anyway because we already have a feat that lets you take a Prestige Class as a Favoured Class:You have come to favor a certain prestige class, either because you are particularly devoted to the class’s cause, have trained more than most others have for that specific role, or have simply been destined to excel in the prestige class all along. Regardless of the reason, levels gained in your favored prestige class grant additional benefits in a way similar to those you gain for taking levels in your base favored class.
Benefit: Choose one prestige class and one skill that is a class skill for that prestige class. Whenever you gain a level in that prestige class, you receive +1 hit point or +1 skill rank. You gain a +2 bonus on checks using the skill you chose from that prestige class’s class skills. If you have 10 or more ranks in one of these skills, the bonus increases to +4 for that skill. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Skill Focus, but does not stack with a bonus granted by any other feat (such as Magical Aptitude or Persuasive). The choice of favored prestige class cannot be changed once you make it. Levels in a favored prestige class are not the same as levels in a regular favored class, and as such levels in a favored prestige class can never be used to qualify or gain favored class options like those introduced in Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player’s Guide. You can have only one favored prestige class, but can still have a favored base class as well.
You can select this feat before you gain levels in your chosen favored prestige class, but the benefits of the feat do not apply until you actually gain at least 1 level in that prestige class.
Normal: Prestige classes cannot be a favored class, and cannot benefit from the additional hit point or skill rank afforded to those who take levels in a favored class.
So there's a lot to take in here but the final questions are:
- If FCB is a class feature, how would it interact with the Evangelist or Mortal Usher Prestige Classes?
- If FCB is a class feature how would it interact with those Prestige classes if the PC also had the Favoured Prestige Class feat?
Once again the end goal of these questions is to determine whether FCB is a class feature or not. We now have something like 5 rulesets in play that were written by different people and written over the span of a full decade. We almost certainly have rules that were written without considering some of the consequences. It would be nice to get a difinitive answer, but if that's not possible then that's ok too.
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Wall of citations, you can skip to the part after the Horror Adventures citation if you want the synthesis of the post.
The problem is that the rules about Favorit Class benefits have evolved with the hardbound manuals, but they haven't been always used in the same way in the softbounds.
Favored Class
Each character begins play with a single favored class of his choosing—typically, this is the same class as the one he chooses at 1st level. Whenever a character gains a level in his favored class, he receives either + 1 hit point or + 1 skill rank. The choice of favored class cannot be changed once the character is created, and the choice of gaining a hit point or a skill rank each time a character gains a level (including his first level) cannot be changed once made for a particular level. Prestige classes (see Chapter 11) can never be a favored class.
Just to point it out, if the FCB isn't a class feature, the step by step instructions on Advancing Your Character has no instruction on adding it:
Advancing Your Character
....
When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order.
First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made.
Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level.
Third, integrate all of the level’s class abilities and then roll for additional hit points.
Finally, add new skills and feats.
For more information on when you gain new feats and ability score increases, see Table 3–1.
In the first step, you don't add anything, only select.
In the second step, you increase your ability score.In the third step, you integrate the class abilities and roll for hit points.
In the final step, you add new skills and feats.
Apparently, you never add the FCB. LOL
As it adds the benefit for adding a level I will add it just after the first step, if that ever matter.
RACIAL FAVORED CLASSES
The final section for each racial discussion describes alternative benefits for members of that race taking certain classes as a favored class. The normal benefit of having a favored class is simple and effective: your character gains one extra hit point or one extra skill rank each time she gains a level in that class (or in either of two classes, if she is a half-elf ). The alternate favored class abilities listed here may not have as broad an appeal as the standard choices. They are designed to reflect flavorful options that might be less useful in general but prove handy in the right situations or for a character with the right focus. Most of them play off racial archetypes, like a half-orc’s toughness and proclivity for breaking things or elven grace and finesse.
In most cases, these benefits are gained on a level-by-level basis — your character gains the specified incremental benefit each time she gains a level. Unless otherwise noted, these benefits always stack with themselves.
For example, a human with paladin as a favored class may choose to gain 1 point of energy resistance each time she gains a level; choosing this benefit twice increases this resistance bonus to 2, 10 times raises it to 10, and so on.
In some cases this benefit may eventually hit a fixed numerical limit, after which selecting that favored class benefit has no effect. Of course, you can still select the bonus hit point or skill rank as your favored class benefit, so there is always a reward for sticking with a favored class.
Finally, some of these alternate favored class benefits only add +1/2, +1/3, +1/4, or +1/6 to a roll (rather than +1) each time the benefit is selected; when applying this result the die roll, round down (minimum 0). For example, a dwarf with rogue as his favored class adds +1/2 to his trap sense ability regarding stone traps each time he selects the
alternate rogue favored class benefit; though this means the net effect is +0 after selecting it once (because +1/2 rounds down to +0), after 20 levels this benefit gives the dwarf a +10 bonus to his trap sense (in addition to the base value from being a 20th-level rogue).
As in the previous section, what is presented here is a set of alternative benefits that characters of each race may choose instead of the normal benefits for their favored class. Thus, rather than taking an extra hit point or an extra skill rank, players may choose for their characters to gain the benefit listed here. This is not a permanent or irrevocable choice; just as characters could alternate between taking skill ranks and hit points when they gain levels in their favored class, these benefits provide a third option, and characters may freely alternate between them.
As with any alternate or optional rule, consult with your GM to determine whether exchanging normal favored class benefits for those in this chapter will be allowed.
Ultimate Magic and Ultimate Combat don't have anything about FCB.
Advanced Race Guide has the FCB for all the classes introduced after the APG and a new but almost identical version of the rules. There are only some slight variations in the text.
Favored Class Options: These rules allow each race to take alternate rewards when a member of that race gains a level in her favored class. Each of these replaces the normal reward for having a level in a favored class—either gaining 1 extra hit point or 1 extra skill rank each time a member of the race takes a level in that class. Unlike those general rewards, the alternate favored class options usually speak directly to the features and options of the class in question. Most of them are plays on the flavor of the race, such as a gnome’s curiosity about alchemical devices or a halfling’s innate luck.
When choosing one of these favored class options, the reward is gained on a level-by-level basis. Unless otherwise noted, these benefits always stack with themselves. For example, a halfling fighter adds +1 to his CMD when resisting a trip or a grapple each time he gains a level; choosing this benefit twice increases the bonus to a total of +2, choosing it 10 times increases the bonus to a total of +10, and so on.
In other cases, these rewards may have a fixed numerical limit, after which selecting such a favored class reward again has no effect. In these cases you can always select the standard reward for taking a level in a favored class.
Some of these alternate class rewards only add +1/2, +1/3, +1/4, or +1/6 on a roll (rather than +1) each time the reward is selected. When applying this type of result to a die roll, always round down (minimum 0). For example, a half-orc with gunslinger as her favored class adds a +1/4 bonus on attack rolls and a +1/2 bonus on damage rolls when using
the pistol whip deed each time she selects that favored class bonus, though this means the net effect is +0 on each after selecting it once (because both +1/4 and +1/2 rounds down to 0). After 20 levels, this benefit gives the half-orc a +5 bonus on attack rolls and a +10 bonus on damage rolls when using the pistol whip deed (in addition to the base
value from being a 20th-level gunslinger).
Both cover getting a fraction of a die roll bonus, but not fractions of other abilities.
Advanced class guide expands the rules, to reduce the wall of text I will repeat only the new parts.
It reiterates the part where it says that you can get fractional bonuses to die rolls and fractional pieces of class features.
Again, no mention of getting a fractional amount of stuff that isn't a die roll or a class feature.
Racial Favored Class Options
...
Whenever you gain a level, you can choose which favored class option you take. Unless otherwise noted, these benefits always stack with themselves.
Many of these alternate class rewards add only 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, or 1/6 to a roll (rather than 1) each time the reward is selected, or add 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, or 1/6 to a class ability (such as adding to a bloodrager’s number of bloodrages per day or a swashbuckler’s total number of panache points). When applying such a benefit to a die roll or class ability, always round down (minimum 0). You may thus need to select such an option several times before the benefit applies.
It expands the fractional bonus to class abilities, but not to other stuff.
occult adventures repeat the text of ACG, with an addition about spells.
Racial Favored Class Options
...
Many of these alternate class rewards add only 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, or 1/6 to a roll (rather than 1) each time the reward is selected, or add 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, or 1/6 to a class ability (such as adding to a mesmerist’s number of mesmerist tricks per day or the total number of points in a psychic’s phrenic pool).
When applying such a benefit to a die roll or class ability, always round down (to a minimum of 0). You may thus need to select such an option several times before the benefit takes effect. If an alternate favored class option modifies a class feature or ability, it can’t be taken before the character has that class feature or ability. For example, if a class gains a class feature at 6th level, a character couldn’t take a racial favored class option that applies to that class feature until 6th level, even if the benefit from that option wouldn’t be high enough to add a bonus until a later level.
...
Abilities from favored class options that increase a character’s caster level for the purpose of determining the duration of certain spells apply this increase after other effects that adjust a spell’s duration, such as Extend Spell.
Horror Adventures doesn't add anything.
Full rules for alternate racial traits and favored class options are found on pages 8–9 of the Pathfinder RPG Advanced Race Guide. Remember that alternate racial traits are not a category of traits (those are called race traits).
Base on the hardbounds the benefits can only be an integer or, alternatively, a fraction of a die roll or a class feature.
Nowhere it says that you can add a fraction of something different.The softbounds, as cited in previous posts, have added fractional benefits that aren't class features. AFAIK they haven't introduced rules that explicitly allow that.
The rules define the FCB as a reward for gaining a level in a class, but the different text makes a difference:
The normal benefit of having a favored class is simple and effective: your character gains one extra hit point or one extra skill rank each time she gains a level in that class (or in either of two classes, if she is a half-elf).
That would support Theaitetos position that you retain the FCB even if you train away the favorited class level, but later it was changed:
Each of these replaces the normal reward for having a level in a favored class—either gaining 1 extra hit point or 1 extra skill rank each time a member of the race takes a level in that class.
Now the reward is for having a level, not simply having gained it in the past, so, if you trade away the level, you don't satisfy the condition anymore.
After all the above, I would say: "It is not a class feature, but it is linked to having the levels in the class."