While the summoner is fused with his Eidolon, he uses the Eidolon's physical ability scores, wich includes the constitution value. I need to clarify if I have to recalculate the summoner's max hp using the Eidolon's constitution or not.
RAW: it seems very straight and the new value is the actual constitution
RAI: the summoner keeps his normal max hp value but uses Eidolon's constitution for everything else.
When fused together your HP would go up, based on the eidolon's con value, but the HP is gained as temp HP.
Fused Eidolon
A synthesist summons the essence of a powerful outsider to meld with his own being. The synthesist wears the eidolon like translucent, living armor. The eidolon mimics all of the synthesist’s movements, and the synthesist perceives through the eidolon’s senses and speaks through its voice, as the two are now one creature.While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), but retains his own mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma). The synthesist gains the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is killed and sent back to its home plane. The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon’s armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores. The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon’s special abilities and the eidolon’s evolutions. The synthesist is still limited to the eidolon’s maximum number of natural attacks. The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own. The eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist. The eidolon must have limbs for the synthesist to cast spells with somatic components. The eidolon’s temporary hit points can be restored with the rejuvenate eidolon spell.
While fused, the synthesist loses the benefits of his armor. He counts as both his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist. Spells such as banishment or dismissal work normally on the eidolon, but the synthesist is unaffected. Neither the synthesist nor his eidolon can be targeted separately, as they are fused into one creature. The synthesist and eidolon cannot take separate actions. While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear, except for his armor. In all other cases, this ability functions as the summoner’s normal eidolon ability (for example, the synthesist cannot use his summon monster ability while the eidolon is present).
This ability replaces the class’s eidolon ability, bond senses, and life bond.
The following class abilities function differently for synthesist summoners.
So no, you don't "double dip" and increase your summoner characters HP with the increased con value, but you do gain the eidolon's HP as temp hp (which will already include the better con value).
I'm aware that I have to add the Eidolon's hp as temporary, but what's happen to my hp? I'm changing my constitution value and everybody knows that the basic maximum hp rule is: (HD + constitution's modifier)* level
So, the question is, should I change my maximum hp or not?
So, the question is, should I change my maximum hp or not?
IMO you should. The wording "synthesist uses the eidolon’s Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution" seems clear, you apply these stats to everything. So you use your summoner d8s with the eidolon's Con. Which is rather medicore (13), but that's part of the deal - overwritten physical scores are not always a benefit.
Now you could dump your own Con score to 7 or even lower, but as soon as you are caught without fused eidolon, that might be a death sentence.
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I've heard people recommend going high with constitution so if you get knocked unconscious, you may end up healing from the constitution increase.
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Your max HP should change, but it does not need to be recalculated.
This is because 1) you gain your eidolon's hp as temp hp, 2) when it's gone your eidolon disappears, and 3) temp hp is always lost first.
This means that the only things your hp matters for, are things like power word kill.
You can transfer your hp into the temp hp to keep it around intstead of disappearing at 0 hp.
So it really does matter.
I think the RAW is that you would substitute the eidolon con score for yours, and recalculate the HP.
If I were the GM I would consider that essentially double dipping (since you get to add the eidolon's HP as temp HP) and say you HP remains the same. To me that fits better with RAI.
You recalculate your hit points to match the eidolon's constitution, just as a barbarian does with his boosted constitution when he rages. But in this case, your constitution and thus hit points could be going up or down depending on the relative constitutions of the summoner and the eidolon -- thus, Melkiador's advice is quite sound.
I'm aware that I have to add the Eidolon's hp as temporary, but what's happen to my hp? I'm changing my constitution value and everybody knows that the basic maximum hp rule is: (HD + constitution's modifier)* level
So, the question is, should I change my maximum hp or not?
Your HP does not change. There is no reason for it to. You get the Eidolons Full HP as temp HP on top of your normal HP. When that temp HP reaches zero the Eidolon dies and the fusion ends. Your normal HP is never touched by damage until the temp HP is all gone and since the fusion ends when the temp HP hits zero, there is no reason to recalculate your max HP what so ever. Any damage to your actual HP would happen without the boosted con anyways.
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The RAW seems pretty clear here. You've got the right idea, Blackflame; the summoner recalculates their HP based on the eidolon's Con score while fused, and then also adds the Eidolon's HP on top as temp HP.
@ Chell Raighn & willuwontu
Remember that the synthesist also gets Fused Link (Su):
Starting at 1st level, the synthesist forms a close bond with his eidolon. Whenever the temporary hit points from his eidolon would be reduced to 0, the summoner can, as a free action, sacrifice any number of his own hit points. Each hit point sacrificed this way prevents 1 point of damage done to the eidolon (thus preventing the loss of the summoner’s temporary hit points), preventing the eidolon from being killed and sent back to its home plane. This ability replaces life link.
So knowing exactly how many hit points the synthesist has to sacrifice is actually a pretty big deal.
Your HP does not change. There is no reason for it to. You get the Eidolons Full HP as temp HP on top of your normal HP. When that temp HP reaches zero the Eidolon dies and the fusion ends. Your normal HP is never touched by damage until the temp HP is all gone and since the fusion ends when the temp HP hits zero, there is no reason to recalculate your max HP what so ever. Any damage to your actual HP would happen without the boosted con anyways.I'm aware that I have to add the Eidolon's hp as temporary, but what's happen to my hp? I'm changing my constitution value and everybody knows that the basic maximum hp rule is: (HD + constitution's modifier)* level
So, the question is, should I change my maximum hp or not?
If it wasn't for Fused Link as already pointed out this would be true.
But since you can sacrifice summoner HP to keep your eidolon armor alive it does matter.
But as David Knott and I pointe out, since your getting the benefit of adding the Eidolon's HP pool as temp HP, I would consider it double dipping to recalculate your HP with the Eidolon's con modifier and gives more HP total than is actually intended.
So RAW, yes you would calculate. Rules as intended? Personally I say no.
@ Chell Raighn & willuwontu
Remember that the synthesist also gets Fused Link (Su):
If that’s the case... then... yes you recalculate your HP... I haven’t read over the entirety of the synthesist (because the DMs in my group banned the archetype) so I was going purely off the initial ability posted... if you are able to sacrifice actual HP to save Temp HP then yes, you recalculate your HP. If it wasn’t for that ability, then there would be absolutely no real reason to recalculate HP since the moment your temp HP is exhausted your HP would return to its original value and any remaining damage would be deducted from it.
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Your HP does not change. There is no reason for it to. You get the Eidolons Full HP as temp HP on top of your normal HP. When that temp HP reaches zero the Eidolon dies and the fusion ends. Your normal HP is never touched by damage until the temp HP is all gone and since the fusion ends when the temp HP hits zero, there is no reason to recalculate your max HP what so ever. Any damage to your actual HP would happen without the boosted con anyways.I'm aware that I have to add the Eidolon's hp as temporary, but what's happen to my hp? I'm changing my constitution value and everybody knows that the basic maximum hp rule is: (HD + constitution's modifier)* level
So, the question is, should I change my maximum hp or not?
Except your hp DOES change.
If the eidolon is at 1 temp hp you can use your hp to keep it up.Let's say the synthesist is a wannabe min maxer and uses a 7 con not fused, and a 13 while fused.
Normally at level 1 he has 5hp, but has 9 while fused.
Now let's say they get hit for 8 damage and only have 1 temp hp. They have 2 options. Let the eidolon poof away and take the remaining 7, or transfer hp from them to the eidolon.
If they let the eidolon drop, they take 7, get knocked unconcious, are at -2 hp.
Or they can transfer their hp into the eidolon and leave them with 1 hp, the eidolon with 1 temp hp, and still be standing
But as David Knott and I pointe out, since your getting the benefit of adding the Eidolon's HP pool as temp HP, I would consider it double dipping to recalculate your HP with the Eidolon's con modifier and gives more HP total than is actually intended.
So RAW, yes you would calculate. Rules as intended? Personally I say no.
It's not technically double dipping, but I can see the argument that it's close enough to show that recalculating HP is against intent. I'm not convinced this is enough of a problem, or that it's strong enough evidence of intent, to justify going against the RAW though.
As long as there's not a huge difference between the scores then it won't end up being a big deal anyways. If the synthesist's score is significantly higher than the eidolon's, they might get a bit of a safety net out of it at the expense of overall power. If the synthesist dumps their Con, they'll be more powerful overall but will eventually suffer for that decision when they get caught off guard or pushed into the negatives while fused.
I think the main issue that people have experienced with Synthesis Summoners in particular is dumping all physical scores to max out mental scores regardless of what point buy is used.
Of course, providing a stat array or rolling stats are alternatives that eliminate that issue.
Personally when I GM I provide a stat array.
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I've heard people recommend going high with constitution so if you get knocked unconscious, you may end up healing from the constitution increase.That's my advice
Never played a Summoner but it seems solid advice.
You don't want to lose even more hp from a drop in constitution when the Eidolon is killed. And sooner or later it will happen.I think the RAW is that you would substitute the eidolon con score for yours, and recalculate the HP.
If I were the GM I would consider that essentially double dipping (since you get to add the eidolon's HP as temp HP) and say you HP remains the same. To me that fits better with RAI.
It would be double-dipping if your Con is lower than the eidolon Con, but to me doing that seems dangerous. Your Con should be at least on par with the eidolon Con. Generally, the eidolon will be destroyed when you are extremely low in hit points, and going even lower when the eidolon disappears can kill you.
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I think the main issue that people have experienced with Synthesis Summoners in particular is dumping all physical scores to max out mental scores regardless of what point buy is used.
Of course, providing a stat array or rolling stats are alternatives that eliminate that issue.
Personally when I GM I provide a stat array.
I leave the players free to buy stats as they want, but I have the benefits of playing with people that don't mix-max stats. And I am strict enough with the consequences of low stats.
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A somewhat related question:
if a Sinthethist Summoner is hit by something that requires a fortitude save every day, like a disease, what saves you use:
- the one he has when fused?
or
- the one he has when not fused?
Personally, I will think that he should use the non-fused save, as that is his body save, but I am curious to hear other people's thoughts and reasons.
AFAIK there is not a specific time of the day in which that kind of save should be made, but "when waking up" seems reasonable enough.
The exception is negative levels, which specify "after 24 hours", so it is 24 hours after getting them. That is generally favorable, as there is the time to pray for a new set of spells and get a restoration.
I would say, unless the player states that they're going to stay fused until the thing causing the save has run its course, then I would use the non-fused save. It's not like poison or disease picks a specific time to "attack" you but rather the save represent the constant struggle you have. So at whatever point your weakest (in saves) represents the weakest link and that's when it's going to hit you the hardest.
Just my opinion.
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I would say, unless the player states that they're going to stay fused until the thing causing the save has run its course, then I would use the non-fused save. It's not like poison or disease picks a specific time to "attack" you but rather the save represent the constant struggle you have. So at whatever point your weakest (in saves) represents the weakest link and that's when it's going to hit you the hardest.
Just my opinion.
I see that we agree. If the Sintetist stays awake and fused for 24 he is entitled to use the eidolon constitution, but if he go to sleep and then recall it he will use his personal value.