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So I recently built a level 5 abyssal bloodline sorcerer for a module a friend is running. I like the idea of a sorcerer fighting against his bloodline and twisting his evil Magic’s to good through sheer willpower. Playing through, though, I found that a lot of divine spells seem to assume you are a cleric and thus require ‘your god’ as a component of the spell. For example “Divine Wrath,” (Which is a bloodline spell for Abyssal bloodline sorcerers) requires you to know about your deity’s alignment, and you can’t even cast it if you don’t have one! What if you are an oracle, and you don’t know which deity fused you? What if you are a sorcerer and your religion is completely divested from your power source? What if you are a fervor witch and your patron isn’t even a deity? Similar wording is out there for Divine Lance and a few other spells.
Has Paizo errata’ed this or addressed it? If they are going to allow multiple ways to get to divine power than they shouldn’t assume everyone is a cleric.
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EVERYONE has a Deity or Faith. Even if you choose to enter Atheist in that area of your Character Sheet I think you're making the mistake of thinking that that area is at all optional... it's not, just like your own Alignment.
Sure, it usually doesn't matter if you fail to put anything there but it's a binary decision, you either choose a Deity/Faith/Philosophy or you select Atheist.
As for actual Athiest Divine Spellcasters... that's sort of a weird choice to make but if you decide to do this then you're making a decision that leaves you unable to use those kinds of features. Oracles, in particular, I could see this being more common, you know, being angry at the Gods for cursing them and all, being spiteful and whatnot, and yeah, also for Sorcerers who are trying to rebel against their fundamental nature and whatnot but those are just... consequences I guess.
In other words, I don't think there is anything to fix here, if you choose an option that has a distinct lack of X, Y, and Z and then get a feature that's looking for X then it's just useless to you.
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Nope. There is no official alternative mechanism for this. The only thing that was errated about it was Spiritual Weapon, which is also an Occult spell.
It is still just as big of a lore/mechanics disconnect for divine sorcerers as it was day one.
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EVERYONE has a Deity or Faith. Even if you choose to enter Atheist in that area of your Character Sheet I think you're making the mistake of thinking that that area is at all optional... it's not, just like your own Alignment.
Sure, it usually doesn't matter if you fail to put anything there but it's a binary decision, you either choose a Deity/Faith/Philosophy or you select Atheist.
As for actual Athiest Divine Spellcasters... that's sort of a weird choice to make but if you decide to do this then you're making a decision that leaves you unable to use those kinds of features. Oracles, in particular, I could see this being more common, you know, being angry at the Gods for cursing them and all, being spiteful and whatnot, and yeah, also for Sorcerers who are trying to rebel against their fundamental nature and whatnot but those are just... consequences I guess.
In other words, I don't think there is anything to fix here, if you choose an option that has a distinct lack of X, Y, and Z and then get a feature that's looking for X then it's just useless to you.
Yes, but only Champions and Clerics have the Deity class feature, which is what I assume the spells refer to.
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No. You don't have to have the deity class feature. That would be a much bigger problem.
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No. You don't have to have the deity class feature. That would be a much bigger problem.
No, I’m saying: “When a spell refers to ‘your deity,’ I assumed it referred to the only thing that is codified mechanically as ‘your deity’ which is a deity class feature.” Which is confusing for divine casters without that class feature. If it works they way you said. . . It. . . It is confusing. Like, what if a Shelynite angelic bloodline sorcerer casts “Crisis of Faith” on a Shelynite cleric? Is that anathema for them? What is the penalty for a sorcerer violating their anathema?
I just think they need to address this issue.
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Witches, Sorcerers and Oracles can choose whatever Deity they wish (so long as their alignment qualifies), or be Atheist, just as any Fighter, Rogue or Wizard can.
Only the classes with the Deity class feature MUST tie their abilities to their Deity of choice. EDIT: for example, a Witch's Patron need not be the Deity they worship, but for a Cleric, they're one-in-the-same.
If you are not one of those classes and you choose to be Atheist, it seems obvious that you wouldn't be able to benefit from options that require a Deity.
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As for actual Athiest Divine Spellcasters... that's sort of a weird choice to make but if you decide to do this then you're making a decision that leaves you unable to use those kinds of features. Oracles, in particular, I could see this being more common, you know, being angry at the Gods for cursing them and all, being spiteful and whatnot, and yeah, also for Sorcerers who are trying to rebel against their fundamental nature and whatnot but those are just... consequences I guess.
The PF1 Iconic Oracle was Rahadoumi, the idea of a divine caster that worships no god is well established in Pathfinder. It was extremely short sighted on Paizo's part to make so many divine spells require a deity to function.
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Witches, Sorcerers and Oracles can choose whatever Deity they wish (so long as their alignment qualifies), or be Atheist, just as any Fighter, Rogue or Wizard can.
Only the classes with the Deity class feature MUST tie their abilities to their Deity of choice. EDIT: for example, a Witch's Patron need not be the Deity they worship, but for a Cleric, they're one-in-the-same.
If you are not one of those classes and you choose to be Atheist, it seems obvious that you wouldn't be able to benefit from options that require a Deity.
I'm not sure why you can't have an alignment in conflict with that of your deity. We aren't talking about clerics here. There is not a normal clerical devotion here which requires respect of the deity, and acceptance of the follower by the deity.
But I can think of character concepts where an evil character was bound to a good deity and vice versus. Particularily for a Witch or Oracle. But also for classes where there is little to no actual game mechanics involved.
Fear is a wonderful motivating force. Some people are genuinely illogical or insane.
Perhaps you worship an evil god of the sea, because you don't want him to destroy all the fishing boats in the town. You just pay your respects and hope to be unnoticed, but that evil god is your deity.
Alignment may have nothing to do with it.
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It was extremely short sighted on Paizo's part to make so many divine spells require a deity to function.
It breaks down for some deities too: think of those poor bastards that have a neutral one: 28 deity picks that leave you with no damage options for those spells. Gozreh, Nethys and Pharasma are major Inner Sea gods with a N alignment.
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It was extremely short sighted on Paizo's part to make so many divine spells require a deity to function.It breaks down for some deities too: think of those poor bastards that have a neutral one: 28 deity picks that leave you with no damage options for those spells. Gozreh, Nethys and Pharasma are major Inner Sea gods with a N alignment.
Neutral dieties can probably use both heal and harm., both good and evil spells. That is an advantage.
For sure Divine Wrath and Divine lance are of no value if you are true neutral. But Avatar, Spiritual Weapon and Anathematic Reprisal work fine.
I don't see that requiring a Deity is short sighted. It is a pretty obvious flavour prerequiste for Divine Magic.
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It is a pretty obvious flavour prerequiste for Divine Magic.
I'm not sure that's defensible when only 1 class [cleric] that can uses divine magic requires them and 3 [witch, oracle, sorcerer] do not.
But Avatar, Spiritual Weapon and Anathematic Reprisal work fine.
Spiritual Weapon works fine even if you don't have a deity [manifests as a club, a dagger, or your deity's favored weapon]. Avatar leaves a LOT of deities out including N ones: Casting it when you worship Ng gets you no deity specific abilities meaning you only get the basic abilities and those do NOT include attacks. As far as Anathematic Reprisal, it's usefulness varies GREATLY: The Lost Prince's Anathema [Abandon someone who has no family, take public credit for your good deeds] is a pretty niche trigger for an attack spell.
I said neutral. I'm not going to argue for atheistic divine casters as the concept is just stupid.
Yes some anathemas are useless for the reprisal spell. But that has always been the problem with choosing a deity in a game like this.
No. You don't have to have the deity class feature. That would be a much bigger problem.No, I’m saying: “When a spell refers to ‘your deity,’ I assumed it referred to the only thing that is codified mechanically as ‘your deity’ which is a deity class feature.”
That is exactly what people are trying to correct your understanding on. Every character in the official setting has a deity that they follow. Every sorcerer, every rogue, every fighter, every swashbuckler...
And it is a mechanically meaningful choice. It affects things like certain spells.
Now if you, like me, prefer to play the game with as little mention of deity as possible, it is easy enough to houserule out the mechanical requirement of choosing a deity. For most classes and many characters the choice already has no actual impact. And for those spells and other things that do reference 'your deity', you can just as easily houserule a solution to that too.
But the official rules expect your character to have a deity.
Perhaps you worship an evil god of the sea, because you don't want him to destroy all the fishing boats in the town. You just pay your respects and hope to be unnoticed, but that evil god is your deity.
Alignment may have nothing to do with it.
I see this scenario more as a 'paying homage to' rather than actual worship.
I also think it would be interesting to see a character like a witch or oracle that 'has' two deities. The one that grants the class powers, and another of their choice that they actually follow.
Which would also interact strangely with spells like Divine Lance, since it would be confusing to decide which deity the spell is referencing - especially if the class deity is unknown. A witch with a NG alignment and has a LG deity written on their sheet, but for some reason Divine Lance does Evil damage when cast...
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I said neutral. I'm not going to argue for atheistic divine casters as the concept is just stupid.
That's the entire concept for the oracle, divine witch and divine sorcerer: they are free to worship 0, 1 or many deities, pantheons, philosophies, concepts and/or principles but the core classes have NO built in worship required or even expected and/or implied.
But the official rules expect your character to have a deity.
Atheism [Core Rulebook pg. 440] is an official option.
I also think it would be interesting to see a character like a witch or oracle that 'has' two deities. The one that grants the class powers, and another of their choice that they actually follow.
Pantheons could cover a character that worships or associates with multiple gods. Take the Cosmic Caravan: it would allow Yog-Sothoth to grant powers but also allow them to follow Cosmic Caravan Edicts/Anathema, and any of the others in the pantheon like Desna, Groetus, Sarenrae, Ashava, Black Butterfly, Pulura and/or Ketephys.
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Every character in the official setting has a deity that they follow. Every sorcerer, every rogue, every fighter, every swashbuckler...
As I said before and was promptly ignored, the original Oracle iconic worshipped no deity. There are rules in PF2 for putting "Laws of Mortality" in your deity slot and getting access to additional feats for it. It is completely valid to have a divine character who is violently opposed to the supremacy of the gods so long as they aren't a cleric.
What is "worship" should not be retricted to our views on real world religions. Its an argument I'm not going to get much into. Everyone can make up their own mind. But lets just say, some dieties crave to be feared, some like to be admired for their way of living or their pure philosophy, others repected for the things that they do or the duty they perform, and some just want to be obeyed.
I said neutral. I'm not going to argue for atheistic divine casters as the concept is just stupid.That's the entire concept for the oracle, divine witch and divine sorcerer: they are free to worship 0, 1 or many deities, pantheons, philosophies, concepts and/or principles but the core classes have NO built in worship required or even expected and/or implied.
But the official rules expect your character to have a deity.Atheism [Core Rulebook pg. 440] is an official option.
But ulitmately you are talking about a divine source for your divine magic. This is the "deity" that is relevant for such classes. Even if they don't worship, respect or follow such a deity. That is where their power comes from.
Somehow you have to justify it and have it make in game sense.
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"Rahadoumi do not doubt the existence of the gods—rather, they reject
the idea of worship..."
Just as Rahadoumi refuse the "benefits" of worship of a god, others who choose not to worship a god (which is a perfectly fine choice to make) just have to accept that they don't get the benefits of worship of a god. No god, then spells that give you benefits based on who is your god simply don't work for you.
Also, as some of the divine casters don't know who their "patron" is, or the actual source of their divine magic, it's quite possible that they do have a god even if it's not one they worship. It might be interesting for a Divine Sorceror to notice that they are able to cast alignment-oriented spells, but they are lawful - little does the Sorceror know that, for whatever reason, Abadar is the source of their spells. Might be some good roleplaying for the Sorceror to figure this out over time.
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My Witch worships Baba Yaga (who is also her patron). You can worship whoever you want. You can worship an Ideal, a Pantheon, a set of Laws, whatever. You can even worship nothing! Though being Atheist in Pathfinder is kind of weird, seeing as deities definitely exist in that universe. I would say just being "non-religious" is the best way to describe someone as worshiping no gods.
These choices make no difference on your character's casting, unless you're a Cleric or Champion.
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But ulitmately you are talking about a divine source for your divine magic.
I wasn't and I didn't get that from your posts, but we can talk about that if you wish.
For a non-divine character, no worship is required.
For non-clerics, there to no worship is required. For sorcerers, "There’s magic in your blood": maybe a god, angel, kami, spirit, [fill in the blank] gave your ancestors power but it's all you now and no deity is currently powering you. Oracles specifically state that their power can be from "multiple deities or circumvent their power entirely": so again, NO deity needed as they can power themselves by circumvent the divine conduit clerics have. Witches get power from a "covert divinity, a powerful fey, a manifestation of natural energies, an ancient spirit, or any other mighty supernatural being." So they COULD be powered by a deity or not: they could be powered 100% by "natural energies".
So it's clear and explicit that divine sources can be innate inherited power, natural energy and mysterious use of cosmic loopholes: seems like PLENTY of instances of non-deities divine power sources.
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"Rahadoumi do not doubt the existence of the gods—rather, they reject
the idea of worship..."Just as Rahadoumi refuse the "benefits" of worship of a god, others who choose not to worship a god (which is a perfectly fine choice to make) just have to accept that they don't get the benefits of worship of a god. No god, then spells that give you benefits based on who is your god simply don't work for you.
Also, as some of the divine casters don't know who their "patron" is, or the actual source of their divine magic, it's quite possible that they do have a god even if it's not one they worship. It might be interesting for a Divine Sorceror to notice that they are able to cast alignment-oriented spells, but they are lawful - little does the Sorceror know that, for whatever reason, Abadar is the source of their spells. Might be some good roleplaying for the Sorceror to figure this out over time.
Yea, and seeing as this one in particular has the Abyssal bloodline, they may have a certain swaying toward casting evil spells rather than good.
OP, I would say choose a Demon Lord and make that the player's Deity. Maybe weave them into the story somehow. Make their presence subtle, but slowly grow over time. Maybe the player will seek out a heavenly deity for assistance in cleansing the Abyss from their blood.
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You can worship whoever you want. You can worship an Ideal, a Pantheon, a set of Laws, whatever. You can even worship nothing!
These choices make no difference on your character's casting, unless you're a Cleric or Champion.
Unless you are a Cleric, Champion, or cast a spell that has different effects based on the traits and attributes of 'your deity'.
That is the entire point in the OP. Some spells themselves change based on your choice of deity. Regardless of the class or feat that lets you cast them.
You can worship whoever you want. You can worship an Ideal, a Pantheon, a set of Laws, whatever. You can even worship nothing!
These choices make no difference on your character's casting, unless you're a Cleric or Champion.
Unless you are a Cleric, Champion, or cast a spell that has different effects based on the traits and attributes of 'your deity'.
That is the entire point in the OP. Some spells themselves change based on your choice of deity. Regardless of the class or feat that lets you cast them.
I wouldn't let that happen. If you are casting Divine spells then you have a divine source. There is a deity there. Even if the knowledge of that source is lost. Even if the diety is some weird entity that is not normaly considered a god. Even if the deity does not know they are providing you spells. Even if the deity is not sentient.
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It's possible to be a "divine spellcaster" only because your great-great-grandmother had a strange but not entirely unpleasant encounter with a demon. The moment you introduce divine spellcasters that are not clerics you need to stop thinking of divine spellcasting only through the lens of a cleric.
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This reminds me of the Godless healing's prerequisite : "can't have a patron deity".
My stance on this is that a patron deity is something (specifically a deity for this feat) beyond yourself in which you put your ultimate trust. And this can be the case for any Class.
If you put your ultimate trust in yourself, or in Sentientkind's better side, or some such, then you do not have a "patron deity".
By definition, a Cleric or a Champion does have a "patron deity".
It's possible to be a "divine spellcaster" only because your great-great-grandmother had a strange but not entirely unpleasant encounter with a demon. The moment you introduce divine spellcasters that are not clerics you need to stop thinking of divine spellcasting only through the lens of a cleric.
You are totally misunderstanding me (if you are referring to my comments).
I'm not requiring the divine caster to worship or be aware of the deity. I'm not requiring anything at all slightly clerical. Just that there is a divine source. Otherwise it is not divine magic.
Else the names mean nothing.
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Just that there is a divine source.
I think the issue is in what form that "divine source" takes: it doesn't require a deity in PF2 as the game give multiple examples that aren't that. Even the trait doesn't limit it to just deities. "This magic comes from the divine tradition, drawing power from deities or similar sources."
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For clarity, I would consider it a completely reasonable solution if (for example) the Demonic Sorcerer's "deity" was assumed to be a Chaotic Evil Demon Lord regardless of their actual alignment or values. That would resolve the issue in a flavorful way, though as I say it I realize it'd be difficult to come up with a similar solution for other characters who's divine magic is not so easily traced. Really should have been avoided from the outset given that this is a problem that was already there in the CRB.
It was extremely short sighted on Paizo's part to make so many divine spells require a deity to function.It breaks down for some deities too: think of those poor bastards that have a neutral one: 28 deity picks that leave you with no damage options for those spells. Gozreh, Nethys and Pharasma are major Inner Sea gods with a N alignment.
Yeah, but those gods also give their clerics some great blast replacements like magic missile, lightning bolt, and phantasmal killer.
For clarity, I would consider it a completely reasonable solution if (for example) the Demonic Sorcerer's "deity" was assumed to be a Chaotic Evil Demon Lord regardless of their actual alignment or values. That would resolve the issue in a flavorful way, though as I say it I realize it'd be difficult to come up with a similar solution for other characters who's divine magic is not so easily traced. Really should have been avoided from the outset given that this is a problem that was already there in the CRB.
So we agree I think.
To give an example:
Grandma ran foul of a contract and had a dalliance with an extraplanar follower related to Asmodeus (LE). As a result the grandchild is an Oracle powered by Asmodeus.
The PC follows Cayden Cailean (CG). They are a regular and devout worshiper. In a very real sense Cayden Cailean is their deity. In fact they could even be a multiclass Champion and have Cayden Cailean as their deity explicitly.
When they cast spritual weapon with an Oracle spell slot, in my opinion, they get a mace from Asmodeus, not a rapier from Cayden Cailean.
Yes technically you can argue that RAW says otherwise. But common sense should prevail.
The deity and alignment listed in divine spells, is that of the deity/whatever that is the source of the divine magic. I know for clerics it is normally enforced but clearly for some characters this does not always have to be the deity the character follows.
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Yeah, but those gods also give their clerics some great blast replacements like magic missile, lightning bolt, and phantasmal killer.
Sure, some grant nice spells but some are pretty questionable and NOT attacks: Daikitsu grants pest form, humanoid form and illusory scene or Monad granting unseen servant, spectral hand and gaseous form. Should I hand those cleric a crossbow?
I'll admit there are interesting N deities like Nalinivati that grant lots of spells: charm, invisibility, lightning bolt, reflective scales, subconscious suggestion, mislead, contingency, scintillating pattern, storm of vengeance.
Yes technically you can argue that RAW says otherwise.
No technicalities or loopholes needed: it explicitly and clearly states that RAW says otherwise in multiple places.
Yes technically you can argue that RAW says otherwise.No technicalities or loopholes needed: it explicitly and clearly states that RAW says otherwise in multiple places.
I have no idea what point you think is in RAW here.
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For clarity, I would consider it a completely reasonable solution if (for example) the Demonic Sorcerer's "deity" was assumed to be a Chaotic Evil Demon Lord regardless of their actual alignment or values. That would resolve the issue in a flavorful way, though as I say it I realize it'd be difficult to come up with a similar solution for other characters who's divine magic is not so easily traced. Really should have been avoided from the outset given that this is a problem that was already there in the CRB.So we agree I think.
To give an example:
Grandma ran foul of a contract and had a dalliance with an extraplanar follower related to Asmodeus (LE). As a result the grandchild is an Oracle powered by Asmodeus.
The PC follows Cayden Cailean (CG). They are a regular and devout worshiper. In a very real sense Cayden Cailean is their deity. In fact they could even be a multiclass Champion and have Cayden Cailean as their deity explicitly.When they cast spritual weapon with an Oracle spell slot, in my opinion, they get a mace from Asmodeus, not a rapier from Cayden Cailean.
Yes technically you can argue that RAW says otherwise. But common sense should prevail.
The mistake you're continuing to make is that the Oracle's power doesn't need to come from Asmodeus, or any other god. The class entry could not possibly be more clear about this:
An oracle wields divine power, but not from a single divine being. This power could come from a potent concept or ideal, the attention of multiple divine entities whose areas of concern all touch on that subject, or a direct and dangerous conduit to raw divine power. This is the oracle's mystery, a source of divine magic not beholden to any deity.
The Oracle's power source is quite deliberately vague and pantheistic; a Battle Oracle is probably getting power from Iomedae and Gorum both, even if they happen to follow the teachings of Irori. Who is their "god" for the purposes of their powers? The lack of a clear answer on that cuts the Oracle out of too may spells.
The mistake you're continuing to make is that the Oracle's power doesn't need to come from Asmodeus, or any other god. The class entry could not possibly be more clear about this:
An oracle wields divine power, but not from a single divine being. This power could come from a potent concept or ideal, the attention of multiple divine entities whose areas of concern all touch on that subject, or a direct and dangerous conduit to raw divine power. This is the oracle's mystery, a source of divine magic not beholden to any deity.
No its not a mistake. Its a deliberate interpretation of what they are saying.
Ultimately whatever that source is, is the deity that is referenced in the divine spells.
You have to decide what that deity is.
If you say it is something that is not traditionally considered to be a diety then you have to interpret what 'deity' means for all those spells that mention it. Work it out.
If you say it is nothing then I argue you have no divine power of any form, and you are an orcale with no powers.
Divine power must have a source even if that origin is not what you would call a deity.
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I have no idea what point you think is in RAW here.
Yes technically you can argue that RAW says otherwise.No technicalities or loopholes needed: it explicitly and clearly states that RAW says otherwise in multiple places.
Divine trait: "This magic comes from the divine tradition, drawing power from deities or similar sources.": IE, no deity required or there is no need to add "similar sources" as a possibility.
Sorcerers: "There’s magic in your blood, whether a divinity touched one of your ancestors, a forebear communed with a primal creature, or a powerful occult ritual influenced your line.": it's not limited to divinity.
Oracles: "You understand the great mysteries of the universe embodied in overarching concepts that transcend good and evil or chaos and law, whether because you perceive the common ground across multiple deities or circumvent their power entirely.": you can "circumvent" deities for your power.
Witches: "This entity might be a covert divinity, a powerful fey, a manifestation of natural energies, an ancient spirit, or any other mighty supernatural being—but its nature is likely as much a mystery to you as it is to anyone else.": are natural energies deities? no.
Wellspring Gnome: "Some other source of magic has a greater hold on you than the primal magic of your fey lineage does. This connection might come from an occult plane or an ancient occult song; a deity, celestial, or fiend; magical effluent left behind by a mage war; or ancient rune magic." "Choose arcane, divine, or occult. You gain one cantrip from that magical tradition's spell list.": You could get divine magic from a ancient rune, a magic war or some random celestial. Deity isn't a requirement.
I have no idea what point you think is in RAW here.
Yes technically you can argue that RAW says otherwise.No technicalities or loopholes needed: it explicitly and clearly states that RAW says otherwise in multiple places.Divine trait: "This magic comes from the divine tradition, drawing power from deities or similar sources.": IE, no deity required or there is no need to add "similar sources" as a possibility.
Sorcerers: "There’s magic in your blood, whether a divinity touched one of your ancestors, a forebear communed with a primal creature, or a powerful occult ritual influenced your line.": it's not limited to divinity.
Oracles: "You understand the great mysteries of the universe embodied in overarching concepts that transcend good and evil or chaos and law, whether because you perceive the common ground across multiple deities or circumvent their power entirely.": you can "circumvent" deities for your power.
Witches: "This entity might be a covert divinity, a powerful fey, a manifestation of natural energies, an ancient spirit, or any other mighty supernatural being—but its nature is likely as much a mystery to you as it is to anyone else.": are natural energies deities? no.
Wellspring Gnome: "Some other source of magic has a greater hold on you than the primal magic of your fey lineage does. This connection might come from an occult plane or an ancient occult song; a deity, celestial, or fiend; magical effluent left behind by a mage war; or ancient rune magic." "Choose arcane, divine, or occult. You gain one cantrip from that magical tradition's spell list.": You could get divine magic from a ancient rune, a magic war or some random celestial. Deity isn't a requirement.
Much of what you list here is conflating divine magic with other magics
All I'm saying is you have a divine source. That is exactly what "drawing power from deities or similar sources" means.
If you are making a divine source that is not a traditional deity then you have to work that out with your GM. Because you are changing the game world. Therefore the onus is on you and the GM to work out what deity means there.
Certain divine spells have diety specific traits. If you are changin your divine source then its up to you and the GM to work out how that changes your divine spells.
Personally I would have absolutely no problem in doing that as a player or GM.
I really fail to see why you expect the game to do this for you.
Just that there is a divine source.I think the issue is in what form that "divine source" takes: it doesn't require a deity in PF2 as the game give multiple examples that aren't that. Even the trait doesn't limit it to just deities. "This magic comes from the divine tradition, drawing power from deities or similar sources."
Just totally not the point. That similar source is a divine source even if it it not a deity. Whatever the source for your power is, it is a divine source.
That is the source that counts as your deity for all the spells and powers it affects.
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Just totally not the point. That similar source is a divine source even if it it not a deity. Whatever the source for your power is, it is a divine source.
But it IS totally the point. Those other sources do NOT count as a deity: they don't have boons/curses, skills, spells, domains and might not even have an alignment: for instance, "a manifestation of natural energies" doesn't even have to be intelligent let alone a moral compass.
That is the source that counts as your deity for all the spells and powers it affects.
That doesn't make much sense: this means that if your oracle actively worships a deity, the Dm is required to force him to instead worship whatever deity the the DM make up for their "source".
If you are making a divine source that is not a traditional deity then you have to work that out with your GM. Because you are changing the game world.
No you're not.: the game world already allows for divine magic without a deity. A Dm could give you equivalent abilities to a deity for your spells but that would be changing the game world: ie, not RAW.
I really fail to see why you expect the game to do this for you.
Yes, this is what I'm thinking about your stance: why insist the game requires a deity for divine magic to work? What actually breaks if you play the game as/is?
You have bogged yourself down in semantics when there is a simple logic solution in front of you.
Work it out with your GM.
What you are waiting for is for the game to define another whole list of "not a diety" divine sources, stating what all the equivalents gaps are. Plus define all the possible combination of pantheons and sub patheon groupings that are possible with the existing gods.
Until then do you just get none?
Two minutes after they release such a supplement I define a new type of Oracle and we are back to square one.
Plus in the example I gave, between Asmodeus and Cayden Cailean, what is your position?
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I don't see that requiring a Deity is short sighted. It is a pretty obvious flavour prerequiste for Divine Magic.
I mean, of the four divine casters in PF2 right now only one of them is explicitly connected to a deity at all. So if anything, you have this one backwards.
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As I was saying your "deity" can be anything. You could even be drawing divine magic from the earth itself. What gives divine magic it's oomf is the faith the "deitie's" followers have for it. If you worship the earth itself strongly enough you can gain divine magic from it.
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You have bogged yourself down in semantics when there is a simple logic solution in front of you.
Again, IMO it's you that bogged down with semantics: you insist Divine requires a deity or the equivalent. It doesn't.
Work it out with your GM.
Nothing to work out: you are the first people I've seen with this stance. I've had NO issue with my divine witch being powered by natural energy and moving on with my day.
What you are waiting for is for the game to define another whole list of "not a diety" divine sources
No, you are the only one obsessing over this. I don't NEED them defined as it really doesn't matter what powers my character: if I care about spells that require a deity, I'll worship an actual deity as the source doesn't impact anything unless I'm a cleric.
Until then do you just get none?
Yes, this is the default for non-cleric divine casters UNLESS they pick and worship a deity. The source of their magic IN NO WAY counts as their worshiped diety.
Plus in the example I gave, between Asmodeus and Cayden Cailean, what is your position?
1000% Cayden Cailean. Asmodeus left the building after he dropped off the power.
Divine Lance: "Choose an alignment your deity has (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful).": not an alignment the source of your power has but that of your deity: your deity is Cayden Cailean.
Character Creation (Faith):
Source Core Rulebook pg. 21
"Perhaps you’d like to play a character who is a devout follower of a specific deity. Pathfinder is a rich world with myriad faiths and philosophies spanning a wide range, from Cayden Cailean, the Drunken Hero of good-hearted adventuring; to Desna, the Song of Spheres and goddess of dreaming and the stars; to Iomedae, the Inheritor, goddess of honor, justice, and rulership. Pathfinder’s major deities appear on pages 437–440. Your character might be so drawn to a particular faith that you decide they should be a champion or cleric of that deity; they might instead be a lay worshipper who applies their faith’s teachings to daily life, or simply the child of devout parents."
Note nothing here mentions anything other than actual worshippers. It's not your deity unless you're worshiping it.
You are not thinking about the mechanics of why. Make an attempt to understand the in world mechanics.
Magic of a divine tradition comes from a source. It is not internal to the caster. It is dependant on a source. Whatever that source is.
The use of the word "deity" and "alignment" in spells is simply a reflection of the traditional origin of these spells. Which is of course, from actual deities for Clerics.
As soon as you go to a Oracle which does not have to have an actual diety as a source or even worship them if they do, then who run into problems.
You can through up yours hand in horror and be paralysed by these words, leading to saying that these spell don't work or making illogical interpretations of these spells.
Follow the logic, not the text. Interpret the situations as the CRB asks you to do.
If you do not have a traditional deity as a source of your divine tradition spells and powers, then you have to make a sensible decision about how that affects them.
It is perfectly reasonable to just say no, you get nothing wher a diety is mentioned. But that is not the only answer
It is perfectly reasonable to say that the source of your power is the "deity" which counts for the purposes of divine effects. Even if that "deity" is just is a wierd source of divine magic and not really a normal deity.
It is not reasonable to say that the deity that is not the source of my magic is affecting my powers.
Think about what you are saying.
Work it out.
Plus in the example I gave, between Asmodeus and Cayden Cailean, what is your position?1000% Cayden Cailean. Asmodeus left the building after he dropped off the power.
So Asmodeus power is providing Cayden's Rapier? That has logic issues all of its own.