Can you execute a readied action on the same round that you quicken a spell?
I had a player fall several hundred feat and die due to fall damage. Obviously his remains are now well outside of a move action and our Travel Domain cleric almost never has a use for phase door, so he quickens a Dimension Door in that slot every-day. Can he ready an action to cast Breath of Life when the dead party member is within reach and then dimension door, even though dimension door ends your turn and if done the other way around would not have let him cast the spell in time?
While normally I would think that bringing back a party member in a mostly non-combat environment from what is essentially a trap is an ok handwave, but allowing this seems to open up *way* more possibilities for dimension door and casters that effectively negate that limitation.
It's a little more specific than ending your turn.
After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn.
I think this would prevent readied actions as well.
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By the wording and the rules and (I suspect) the intentions... I would say no. It is clearly not intended to allow this. Otherwise casters would similarly ready actions to "Attack" or "cast ..." "if I see an enemy" before they did so and that clearly isn't intended.
You can ready an action with a trigger like to make an attack with the weapon in hand or to cast a specific spell "if I see an enemy", but readying an action is an action, so you can't ready an action unless you are in combat. Outside of combat you don't operate using actions.
By the wording and the rules and (I suspect) the intentions... I would say no. It is clearly not intended to allow this. Otherwise casters would similarly ready actions to "Attack" or "cast ..." "if I see an enemy" before they did so and that clearly isn't intended.You can ready an action with a trigger like to make an attack with the weapon in hand or to cast a specific spell "if I see an enemy", but readying an action is an action, so you can't ready an action unless you are in combat. Outside of combat you don't operate using actions.
im sorry, but that is one of the most irrational RAW things ever!
reading an action is an action. but saying you can only take actions in combat mean you can never cast healing spells after combat. since casting a cure light wounds (or other levels) is a standard action. what about crafting items that need spells cast? clearly they are done outside of combat.not to mention the whole concept of an ambush is waiting for an enemy to show an opening (or just to show up) that is the most basic of a readied action ever. are ambushes not possible in pathfinder?
a round is 6 seconds. in a round you can take one standard and one move action (beside swift etc), waiting for combat to start (or stating one) just to do stuff needed actions is unreasonable. how do you drink potions before combat then? (or at all?).
what i rule is that taking any action (that need time tracking in response to others) start initiative order no matter if there is combat or not. most of the time out side of combat it matter very little and need not strict tracking, but otherwise any action that you can take in a combat round can be taken out side of combat (it might not be effective, like waiting in ambush for a target that doesn't show up), but the lack of Opposition shouldn't stop you from making said actions
let me just add this. the main use of feather fall spell is out of combat (it seem like one would have been useful in the op's mentioned case). it is why it's an immediate action to cast it , in response to a sudden falling ally (or self). are you saying it can not be cast for the case it's was most likely made for? (beside intentionally jumping from really really high places. which oddly enough by raw make it so you need to first jump then cast, as the spell's targets need to be falling already to work)
You can take actions any time.
Actions are an abstraction of time. Move/standard/swift/etc actions are only usually used in combat/encounter based scenarios because in other scenarios you don't usually have to measure things that specifically. In PF1 there isn't really an "encounter mode" and an "exploration mode" with different rules, you're just marking the time differently.
Having said that:
Readying an action ends your turn (but takes you out of the initiative order), so you can't ready an action and then do something else - eg. Dimension Door (unless Dimension Door was your readied action).
Dimension Door also ends your turn, so you can't Dimension Door and then ready an action.
There are feats (Dimensional Agility) that can change this though.
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By the wording and the rules and (I suspect) the intentions... I would say no. It is clearly not intended to allow this. Otherwise casters would similarly ready actions to "Attack" or "cast ..." "if I see an enemy" before they did so and that clearly isn't intended.You can ready an action with a trigger like to make an attack with the weapon in hand or to cast a specific spell "if I see an enemy", but readying an action is an action, so you can't ready an action unless you are in combat. Outside of combat you don't operate using actions.im sorry, but that is one of the most irrational RAW things ever!
reading an action is an action. but saying you can only take actions in combat mean you can never cast healing spells after combat. since casting a cure light wounds (or other levels) is a standard action. what about crafting items that need spells cast? clearly they are done outside of combat.
not to mention the whole concept of an ambush is waiting for an enemy to show an opening (or just to show up) that is the most basic of a readied action ever. are ambushes not possible in pathfinder?
Ok, I could have worded it better:
Ready is a Special initiative action and you can't take Special initiative actions out of combat because you are not using initiative.You can take actions out of combat, you don't track actions and rounds out of combat unless it is needed for something like someone bleeding to death, how much time to cure people and so on.
Ambushes don't use readied actions, they use Surprise and Stealth.
You start hidden, your opponent doesn't perceive you, you get a free action at the start of combat.
That is how you make an ambush in Pathfinder.
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Can you execute a readied action on the same round that you quicken a spell?
I had a player fall several hundred feat and die due to fall damage. Obviously his remains are now well outside of a move action and our Travel Domain cleric almost never has a use for phase door, so he quickens a Dimension Door in that slot every-day. Can he ready an action to cast Breath of Life when the dead party member is within reach and then dimension door, even though dimension door ends your turn and if done the other way around would not have let him cast the spell in time?
While normally I would think that bringing back a party member in a mostly non-combat environment from what is essentially a trap is an ok handwave, but allowing this seems to open up *way* more possibilities for dimension door and casters that effectively negate that limitation.
To do that you need the Dimensional Agility feat.
Can you execute a readied action on the same round that you quicken a spell?
I had a player fall several hundred feat and die due to fall damage. Obviously his remains are now well outside of a move action and our Travel Domain cleric almost never has a use for phase door, so he quickens a Dimension Door in that slot every-day. Can he ready an action to cast Breath of Life when the dead party member is within reach and then dimension door, even though dimension door ends your turn and if done the other way around would not have let him cast the spell in time?
While normally I would think that bringing back a party member in a mostly non-combat environment from what is essentially a trap is an ok handwave, but allowing this seems to open up *way* more possibilities for dimension door and casters that effectively negate that limitation.
So there are two timings, and they fail for the same reason: dimension door's drawback really is oppressive, as it should be for a 4th level long range teleport. Let's break down WHY exactly it fails.
How ready works
1. Readying is basically semi-delaying. You "spend" a standard action now, and declare a contingency and a standard (or faster) action to be taken out of turn. If you decide to ready before taking your other actions for the turn, you may take those actions.
Also, if you do not move at all (even 5' steps) before the readied action, and the readied action is not being used to move, then you may 5' step as part of the readied action.
2. If the contingency is triggered before your next turn, then you take your readied action; your initiative is then shifted to just before the trigger, which delays your next turn (but NOT the progress of timers affecting you, such as conditions.)
3. If the contingency is NOT triggered before your next turn, the readied action is lost; instead, you take your turn as usual.
How dim door messes with this
4. Dim door's special effect removes your ability to take actions until the start of your next turn. This means unspent actions in the same round as dim door, plus AoOs and immediate actions.
5. While you're affected by dim door's effect, even if your contingency triggers, you cannot take the readied action; doing so requires you to be able to take actions, which is prohibited by dim door!
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It doesn't matter if the GM has you "in initiative" (that is, counting individual rounds) or not; the relationship remains the same. Because dim door will simply eat your ability to act, you can't ready -> quickened dim door.
Now, what you could do is ready breath of life for "within range," then have a friendly sorcerer use 2x reach-spell Telekinetic Charge on you. Alternately, if the unfortunate soul hit the ground within 150' of your cleric, you can use your 8th level travel power to teleport as a Move Action, then use your standard to cast breath.
I had a player fall several hundred feat and die due to fall damage. Obviously his remains are now well outside of a move action and our Travel Domain cleric almost never has a use for phase door, so he quickens a Dimension Door in that slot every-day.
So high level characters, at least 15th level and Ready+DimDoor+BoL won't work, but do you need it to work? A fall of about 200' takes 3 seconds, or 1/2 a round, while 670' take a full round. More than enough time to cast the DD, which at 15+ level has 1000'+ range. So DD down to the ground while your victim is falling and then cast BoL on the next round, when he actually hits and dies.
I had a player fall several hundred feat and die due to fall damage. Obviously his remains are now well outside of a move action and our Travel Domain cleric almost never has a use for phase door, so he quickens a Dimension Door in that slot every-day.So high level characters, at least 15th level and Ready+DimDoor+BoL won't work, but do you need it to work? A fall of about 200' takes 3 seconds, or 1/2 a round, while 670' take a full round. More than enough time to cast the DD, which at 15+ level has 1000'+ range. So DD down to the ground while your victim is falling and then cast BoL on the next round, when he actually hits and dies.
Rules mechanics don't run it that way. If you fall, you fall 500' in an 'instant' and take damage immediately. They do not say "you have 3/8ths of a second to get to the bottom before they hit", or any other mathematical formula based on distance fallen to determine where they are at any instant within the round.
I enjoy math, but not enough that I want to run a calculus level computation to determine the exact time it will take to fall x distance.
only thing for the cleric to do is jump, aim for the bushes and hope he's still alive to cast breath of life on his ally at the bottom...
I had a player fall several hundred feat and die due to fall damage. Obviously his remains are now well outside of a move action and our Travel Domain cleric almost never has a use for phase door, so he quickens a Dimension Door in that slot every-day.So high level characters, at least 15th level and Ready+DimDoor+BoL won't work, but do you need it to work? A fall of about 200' takes 3 seconds, or 1/2 a round, while 670' take a full round. More than enough time to cast the DD, which at 15+ level has 1000'+ range. So DD down to the ground while your victim is falling and then cast BoL on the next round, when he actually hits and dies.
That might be the best allowing for the BoL to save the character 11k in diamonds, however I'm still more curious about the end of turn consequences.
For example, flipping the order around, instead of readying (which thanks everyone else for confirming my suspicions), what if they cast the BoL (or other touch spell), hold the charge for the usual "move+still free delivery on your turn" rule, then quicken D-Door to the target already standing in a standing position that they would come out of the teleport touching their target? Free actions as long as they are on your turn can interrupt virtually anything, so could that free touch delivery be taken just before the full completion of the D-Door?
@bbangerter, But how should you determine how long someone has to react until the start of a round when you weren't already in initiative. In this case at least, the party sees the character fall, do they have to wait the full six seconds of falling before they can react? If you could D-Door down in the middle of their fall and before they land and die, then you still have "next round" to BoL at least.
Also @Yukongil, something like this?
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Free actions as long as they are on your turn can interrupt virtually anything, so could that free touch delivery be taken just before the full completion of the D-Door?
After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn.
But I digress...there is hope. The holding the charge rules state that touching anyone or anything may discharge the spell accidentally...
Dimension Door 5 ft above your dead friend and fall on them.
Intentionally accidentally.
But how would that interact if used offensively, to drop yourself onto an enemy for say finger of death?
Falling is not instant. The rules say,Rules mechanics don't run it that way. If you fall, you fall 500' in an 'instant' and take damage immediately. They do not say "you have 3/8ths of a second to get to the bottom before they hit", or any other mathematical formula based on distance fallen to determine where they are at any instant within the round.
I enjoy math, but not enough that I want to run a calculus level computation to determine the exact time it will take to fall x distance.
Creatures that fall take 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet fallen...
No where does it say instant or "immediately take damage". But it does say;
A character cannot cast a spell while falling, unless the fall is greater than 500 feet or the spell is an immediate action, such as feather fall.
So if you fall far enough there is time to cast a spell. So presumably there is time for other people to cast a spell as well.
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Free actions as long as they are on your turn can interrupt virtually anything, so could that free touch delivery be taken just before the full completion of the D-Door?
After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn.But I digress...there is hope. The holding the charge rules state that touching anyone or anything may discharge the spell accidentally...
Dimension Door 5 ft above your dead friend and fall on them.
The held charge dissipates as soon as you cast another spell.
you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
Free actions as long as they are on your turn can interrupt virtually anything, so could that free touch delivery be taken just before the full completion of the D-Door?
After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn.But I digress...there is hope. The holding the charge rules state that touching anyone or anything may discharge the spell accidentally...
Dimension Door 5 ft above your dead friend and fall on them.
The held charge dissipates as soon as you cast another spell.
you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
Fair. I think the intention there is you can't simultaneously hold charges rather though.
Going to need Dimensional Agility as a feat to pull that off....it is actually one of two spells used to describe how the feat works :}
I had a player fall several hundred feat and die due to fall damage. Obviously his remains are now well outside of a move action and our Travel Domain cleric almost never has a use for phase door, so he quickens a Dimension Door in that slot every-day.So high level characters, at least 15th level and Ready+DimDoor+BoL won't work, but do you need it to work? A fall of about 200' takes 3 seconds, or 1/2 a round, while 670' take a full round. More than enough time to cast the DD, which at 15+ level has 1000'+ range. So DD down to the ground while your victim is falling and then cast BoL on the next round, when he actually hits and dies.
I reread this to make sure I was following what you were saying, and I am. It still doesn't change the result, but let me explain why in a different manner.
Character falls on init 20. They fall less than 500', take the appropriate xd6 damage, and the damage kills them. (For the "instant" damage part, the character doesn't take xd6 damage at the end of the round, or 5 init counts after they fell, they take it immediately when they fall - that is the rules mechanics and why I say the damage is "instant" - this assumes a fall of less than 500', a fall greater than that changes things).
Cleric casts DD on init 15 to teleport to the bottom. Turn ends because of the DD.
Next round init 20 happens. 1 round has now passed since the falling player died. They are no longer a valid target for BoL.
Also @Yukongil, something like this?
absolutely like that!
@bbangerter, But how should you determine how long someone has to react until the start of a round when you weren't already in initiative. In this case at least, the party sees the character fall, do they have to wait the full six seconds of falling before they can react? If you could D-Door down in the middle of their fall and before they land and die, then you still have "next round" to BoL at least.
What outside of combat resulted in the fall? If it was a trap, then they didn't spot it, were surprised, and don't get to act in the surprise round while the character falls. (Outside of an immediate action feather fall or the like of course). Character then dies in the surprise round. From there you could roll init for the pit and the cleric, if the cleric goes first he could deliberately step over the edge, and if the fall doesn't kill him too, cast bol at the bottom. But really the whole thing for out of combat falls into GM ruling required territory.
They were climbing back out of an encounter. Instead of going through Kaer Maga, I had a party decide that climbing the cliff's surface would be more fun. Combat was practically over for several rounds, but someone really wanted Roc-omelets for breakfast and didn't think about climbing with only one hand available while the other clutches an egg the size of their chest.
if you're gonna be dumb, ya gotta be tough...
I'd just chalk that up to hilarity and have them roll a new character and tell stories about the guy who died in want of the world's largest omelette
They were climbing back out of an encounter. Instead of going through Kaer Maga, I had a party decide that climbing the cliff's surface would be more fun. Combat was practically over for several rounds, but someone really wanted Roc-omelets for breakfast and didn't think about climbing with only one hand available while the other clutches an egg the size of their chest.
I'm suddenly reminded of the scene in Almost Heroes with Chris Farley and the Eagle Egg, except with a Roc Egg lol XD
if you're gonna be dumb, ya gotta be tough...
I'd just chalk that up to hilarity and have them roll a new character and tell stories about the guy who died in want of the world's largest omelette
That, or the $5000 omelette a character purchased (5000 gp cost for a raise dead). If the cleric has BoL, he also has access to raise dead. The only question is does he have a 5000gp diamond.