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Say I want to create a Feather Token Bird, but I don't know Major Creation.
This spell is lvl 5, so minimum caster level of 9. 5 base dc + 9 + 5 for not knowing the spell equals 19.1) Is this correct?
Now let's say I am crafting something that has Major Creation as it's highest level spell requirement, but I want to add a lvl 1 spell to it that I /do/ know. For the sake of argument lets say its Grease. What would the DC be now?
2) Still 19? 20? Something else if I got 1) wrong?
Still 19.
The CL of the item +5 is the base target, regardless of the number of spells needed to make the item. The highest level spell is what dictates the minimum CL.
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let's make it easier with a picture for an example
the red box at the top with "CL 4th" in it is the item's caster level. it is there to tell us the caster level of powers that the item might have (say if it casts spells) and the dc to craft the item.
as Diego said the normal dc to craft said item is it's cl+5
so in the picture above with cl 4th the dc to craft it would be 4+5= 9
(so anyone with 1 rank in related skill such as spellcraft who take 10 should be able to make it)
- IF he can fulfill all of it's 'construction requirements' (which are marked at the bottom red box).
you can still make the item if you miss some of the requirements by adding +5 to the dc for each one you don't have with the following rules:
1: you MUST have the needed crafting feat, can't take +5 to the dc and skip this!
2:for items that cast spells from specific kind (i think spell completion and trigger but not sure. i know they are potions,wands,scrolls and staffs. and other items that work like them) you MUST provide the spell used (cast it each day while the crafting continues). other items that have spells in their build but are not of that kind (say the item in the picture i provided) can skip spells if you lack them by adding +5 for each missing spell to the dc to craft them.
3: other things like feats or even minimum caster level can be skipped by adding +5 to the dc for each skipped.
- say with the item in the picture the requirements are:
craft W. items and the spell spider climb. the first (crafting feat) can't be skipped, but if you lack the spell spider climb you can still make the item by increasing the crafting dc (which is 9. look above) with +5 (so dc 14 if you lack the spell).
2 more things:
1: the crafting cost is listed along the requirements (in the picture it is 600 gp)
2: crafting normally takes 8 hours and 1 day per 1,000 gp (or part of) of base price (not crafting price. the price on-top)
one can rush and double his work (do 1,000 gp worth of crafting in 4 hours) by increasing the craft dc by 5 more (and since crafting can be done up to 8 hours, can do up to 2,000 gp by doing 2 4-hours crafting sessions a day with +5 to the dc in each.)
other things might be applied to this (such as some1 using the teamwork feat cooperative crafting, which valet familiar is best at, etc.)
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your mixing the cl of the item and the one in the requirement. they are 2 wholly different things
look at the pearl of power in the example. they have cl 17 (which is there mostly to ump the dc to craft them and the dc to dispel them) but the requirement call for creator must be able to cast spells of the spell level to be recalled. (which most of the tame is waaay lower)
so even a 1st level pearl of power has a very high dc to make but only need caster of 1st level (only problem is the crafting feat is open at 3rd caster level).
also see the last words in the faq :
"If he wants to make a 2nd-level pearl, the caster level has to be at least 3, as wizards can’t cast 2nd-level spells until they reach character level 3. He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn’t meet the “able to cast 3rd-level spells” requirement."
this goes to what i said back in :
"3: other things like feats or even minimum caster level can be skipped by adding +5 to the dc for each skipped." (i'll add the 'feats' there is when they call things like having 'cleave' or 'unarmed strike' to make an item related. not the crafting feat which as i said above can not be skipped)
remember this is the part of the construction requirement caster level not the [b]ITEM'S cl/b] - 2 different things!
a pearl of power II has a minimum caster level 3 requirement but once made saves as a 17th cl item , and to make it you need to pass dc of 17+5=22)
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you mistake is that you think you determine the item caster level by the spell used. that is wrong. the item cl (which derive the crafting cl) is set up by the rules in the items info. the need for caster level high enough to cast the spells is maybe a requirement (some items don't even have that) stop mixing the two please
Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item. Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast spells of the desired level.What is there to misread about this? It goes 100% against what you are saying, yet you keep saying it.
To me it plainly says that the 17th caster level mentioned in a Pearl of Power DESCRIPTION at the top, has nothing to do with the REQUIREMENTS mentioned at the bottom Really, I am asking you to point me to RAW that support what you believe.
If I can encapsulate it, just so that we are clear we understand each other:
Your POV: The caster level of an item is static and mentioned in the top. It sets the craft DC and the dispel DC and cannot be lowered except by raising the DC by 5.
My POV: You set the caster level when you make the item, and can raise it to make it harder to dispel if you want. If you have the caster level required, its DC is just your caster level. If you don't have the caster level, the DC increases by 5.
Based on that understanding, I can't agree with either of you.
1. The general rule is that CL cannot be manipulated, unless the item is of an intrinsically consumable type (potions, scrolls, wands) or has level-variable forms (like the Pearl of Power).
Or, more specifically, RAW creates an argument from silence against manipulating CLs by calling out cases where the CL can be manipulated:
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself.
2. With regard to Pearl-type items, this is what's going on.
- Default is CL 17th.
- You can lower this to as low as (2N-1)th, where N is the spell level to be affected by the item. This makes it easier to create, but more susceptible to dispel effects.
- Regardless, the requirement "must be able to cast Nth level spells" remains.
3. The FAQ is a victim of imprecise language: the requirement is not "creator must be caster level (2N-1)th" or "creator must be of a caster level sufficient for a wizard to cast spells of the desired level." THOSE would be caster level requirements (and a martial with Master Craftsman could meet them in that case.)
Rather, the requirement remains "creator must be able to cast spells of the desired level." This is not a caster level requirement, as illustrated by the fact that our 3rd level wizard trying to create PoP (3rd) only has a +5 DC for doing so, not a +10.
The +5 comes from not being able to cast 3rd level spells, not from not being 5th level! (Consider if, instead of a wizard, it's a 5th level bard. Still can't cast 3rd level spells, still suffers the +5.)
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from FAQ
"...For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl’s caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic). "
a creator can put whatever caster level they want as long as its at least the minimum for the spell required.
guys. i see what your problem is and let me explain it:
you are mixing the requirement specifically mentioned in pearl of power with the general requirements of other magic items!
to note:
general: when a spell is asked for making an item, the crafter does NOT need to be high enough caster to cast it! the crafter does not even need to be the one casting it. he just need it to be cast once each day he craft the item. it can be from a wand, an other caster or even from a spell like ability!
BUT the pearl of power, as i linked the item above and here let me link it again, has a specific requirment of:
"creator must be able to cast spells of the spell level to be recalled"
now lets read the faq TOGETHER and see when it talk about the ITEM caster level and the caster level in the REQUIREMENTS:
"Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item. " (the bold part is in the faq itself!)
- you need to separate between the item cl (which set up the craft dc and is NOT a requirement) and the minimum caster level of an item, which sometimes, like in pearl of power is mentioned and thus required and sometimes, like in the item i put waaaay up in my first post is not!
"Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast spells of the desired level."
- now this is where you get all confused!
the faq writer did not mean that this is what EVERY item you craft has as requirement. he just mentioned what pearl of power specifically call out as one, that the caster need to be able to cast spells of the level that is being recalled by the pearl's power! notice "desired level" - the spell level the pearl return. not any other item with spell required and their levels, which as i said above doesn't have anything to do with the crafter as some1 else can provide them!
"However, it makes sense that the minimum caster level of the pearl is the minimum caster level necessary to cast spells of that level–it would be strange for a 2nd-level pearl to be CL 1st.For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl’s caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic)."
- now he explain that since each pearl (again only in pearl. otehr magic items can have a minimum caster level required or not. it changes) HAS a minimum caste level requirement, so when making a pearl the item cl (which effect the item in case of saying soem1 try to dispel it)should match. thus if the item was created specifically with a lower caster level (say a pearl of power 2 with a lower cl of 1) it would effect the items caster level vs stuff like dispelling. do notice that he call out that the normal dc must still be made which is all pearls no meter the level is 17+5!
"If he wants to make a 2nd-level pearl, the caster level has to be at least 3, as wizards can’t cast 2nd-level spells until they reach character level 3. He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn’t meet the “able to cast 3rd-level spells” requirement."
- and at last h explain that if he doesn't have the caster level required to make the item he can take +5 to the dc. such as in the case of trying to make a 3rd level pearl by a caster not able to cast 3rd level spells.
again all this is a faq specifically FOR PEARLS OF POWER who specifically have a requirement of caster being able to cast spell of level of pearl of power ability to return spell to owner - NOT A REQUIREMENT that other items have!!!!!!!!!
The issue I encounter in this thread is that people want to believe this is /only/ covering Pearls of Power.from FAQ
"...For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants b](assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl’s caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic)[/b]. "
a creator can put whatever caster level they want as long as its at least the minimum for the spell required.
yes. since it only talk about how a crafer after meeting the craft dc which is not a part of all this, can lower the caster level of an item to make it under perform. notice that he doesn't say the lower caster level lower the crafting dc!
it's a well known rule that you don't have to make items in your caster level. since sometimes it effect their cost. say a cure light wounds potion cost is spell level X caster level X 25
so a caster of 5th level who doesn't want to spend 1X5X25 125 gp to make a cure light wound potion can make it with a lower caster level of say 1 and it only cost him 25 gp to make (which is why cl 1 potion cost 50)
the faq here is talking about MINIMUM caster level in case you lower the item's caster level. say a pearl of power ii with caster level of 1. but again only after the dc to craft it is met! which is NOT CHANGED!
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to note:
general: when a spell is asked for making an item, the crafter does NOT need to be high enough caster to cast it! the crafter does not even need to be the one casting it. he just need it to be cast once each day he craft the item. it can be from a wand, an other caster or even from a spell like ability!
Actually, the spell is never cast (and that is good, as you would benefit from plenty of tricks that increase the spell power, remove the need for costly components and so on).
The requirements are: "Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed)." and (using a ring as an example) "The act of working on the ring triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the ring’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster’s currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)"One of the FAQ explains that you need to be able to trigger the items giving you the spells if you get them from an item, if I recall correctly.
to note:
general: when a spell is asked for making an item, the crafter does NOT need to be high enough caster to cast it! the crafter does not even need to be the one casting it. he just need it to be cast once each day he craft the item. it can be from a wand, an other caster or even from a spell like ability!Actually, the spell is never cast (and that is good, as you would benefit from plenty of tricks that increase the spell power, remove the need for costly components and so on).
The requirements are: "Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed)." and (using a ring as an example) "The act of working on the ring triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the ring’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster’s currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)"One of the FAQ explains that you need to be able to trigger the items giving you the spells if you get them from an item, if I recall correctly.
That'd be the one from CRB FAQ about arcane casters using divine scrolls when crafting.
Gloves of shaping, for example, are easy for a druid to make (access to all three earth spells,) but a wizard can't get soften earth and stone (which is exclusive to druids.) A wizard could UMD a scroll of that spell; on a failure, he can't advance his crafting of the item that day unless he finds a different source for the spell (a different scroll, perhaps.)
But going back to the question in OP, it's simple.
First off, we're going to assume that the feather token (bird) has a CL 9th. AoN says "varies," while d20pfsrd says 12th, and 3.5 had it as 12th as well. In the assumed case, its craft DC would be 14. Since you aren't meeting Major Creation, that goes up by +5 to 19.
Now, let's suppose you start tinkering with the item, giving the conjured bird a Protection from Evil effect. Now, if you don't have Protection from Evil, that would indeed be another +5. But there's no reason to suppose that the item's CL would increase as a result.
it's similar to if we created a staff of Create Holy Bird Tokens that had Major Creation and Protection from Evil in it. The staff would be CL 9th (based on the highest level spell,) and would not have its CL adjusted for lower level spells.
Also, as a note, it is possible for an item's natural CL to be below the level of a requisite spell; for example, the Ring of Seven Lovely Colors is CL 7th despite having a 6th level spell (beast shape IV) as a requisite. It doesn't happen often, but it can.
Alright it is clear that we both understand the text to mean different things. Mainly over the INTENT of of the FAQ writer.
Its your game, do as you wish. I am going with my understanding that I gathered from the majority of forum posts, guides and stackexchange answerers. And of course the FAQ we disagree on.
Dear lord I wish publishers would think and write more clearly.
then im sorry for you and the so called rest of the people you seem to find agreeing with you, for not being able to tell the difference between what is written in the FAQ and your vivid imagination :
""Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast spells of the desired level.""if it is your way of reading it should be: ""Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast the desired spells .""
he's talking about a spell level and being high enough to cast spell of said level because ..surprise surprise that is what this specific item requirement list... reading it as if any crafter has to be high enough to cast any spell in any item requirement is not only wrong but also goes against the rules that allow for anyone to supply said spells or even bypassing supplying them from the beginning with adding +5 to the dc.
from the pearl of power information:
"CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Craft Wondrous Item; Special creator must be able to cast spells of the spell level to be recalled; "
you will also notice the word "special" in there, right? because most items don't even have requirement of a minimum spell caster level - that is what the crafting feat is for.
but go ahead, ignore basic logic and grammar, no one is stopping you. just don't try and pass it as how the rules work.
what?
the cl in the item is not a requirement.as the FAQ even bold out. the item when crafted has a cl of 17 and the dc is 17+5 but the requirement is to only be able to cast spells of pearl level. so a 3rd level wizard is already high enough level to cast 1st level spells and therefore only need to pass dc 17+5. and yes that by itself is high. pearls of power are MEANT to be high to make them rare.
dude do you even bother reading what i post? because the very thing i said (3 time already above in each other post) you keep mixing in, you keep mistaking in. let me say it again for the 4th time. the cl in the item cl IS NOT A REQUIREMENT!!!!! (even the faq say so and BOLD IT OUT!!!!!) you do NOT NEED TO BE LEVEL 17 TO CRAFT A PEARL OF POWER. it is there to make the dc hard and make dispelling it hard.
what is required is listed below, (in the construction section) to be able to cast a spell of the level the pearl returns. that's it. AND IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ITEM CL OR THE CRAFT DC
only way it effect the dc is if you skip it and increase the 22 dc by 5. as the faq say in the last part about a 3rd level wizard making a pearl III that need 3rd level spells he doesn't have thus increasing the dc by 5
also you ask :
".. why the hell they didn't just straight up answer his or her question is beyond me.."
...they did... the VERY FIST SENTENCE IS :
"Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item. "
they even bold the word 'requirrments'
basically saying stop mixing them up
did you actuly read what it say before starting to post what you think it say?
...as i said the context of the faq (which i took time to explain part by part.) has nothing to do with the carft dc.
the fact you kept mixing them and misunderstanding what the faq was talking about is why you assume i never answered your questions. i was trying to make you understand the faq first so you'll know your asking stuff unrelated to what the faq talk about.
why would i engage answering questions about cats when the faq you try to learn from is talking about airplanes? (and in fact right at the first sentence explain that the two are different)
the faq talk about the pearl of power requirements (which again are unique to pearl of power: a caster level high enough to cast a spell that the pearl return.)
from there it explain how one can make a pearl of power with lower cl then himself (which has no real effect beyond making dispelling it easier.as the craft dc is not related and the pearl cost is not set by cl unlike scrolls etc) and how if he doesn't have the requirement of the caster level he can increase the c by 5 and ignore it. (the bit in the end about a3rd level trying to make pearl III )
if the two cl in question were the same how would increasing the craft dc ignore the caster level that set up said craft dc?
let me point out something that you might have missed in all this:
once the pearl of power is made, unless the crafter downgraded it by intentionally making it a lower caster level, it operate as an item with cl 17. that mean if some1 try to cast dispel on it to make it stop working he need to beat a target with cl 17, not what ever the crafter cl was. be it carfter at level 3 or 20.
same goes for any other item. this effect what level items that cast spells work. a ring that cast burning hand would use it's cl to decide the damage it deals etc.