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Feint says that: https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=48
The target is flat-footed against the next melee attack that you attempt against it before the end of your current turn.
Grovel just skips the requirement to be near the creature: https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1277
Unlike a normal Feint, the creature can be within 30 feet instead of in your melee reach
In this case, the only benefit would be to feint before you move and attack with a melee attack or the Grovel intention was to enable ranged attacks against the feinted opponent?
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I have both the CRB and APG open in front of me now. Going back and forth between the ancestory feat and the rule on feint, it seems the melee requirement is removed entirely. If so, then one can Grovel then range or spell attack the now (hopefully) flatfooted opponent.
Feints only benefit the one performing the action. Allies cannot benefit from the flatfooted condition caused by a success.
Put those two together, I don’t see how the intent cannot be to allow a ranged attack.
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Mental
Requirements You are within melee reach of the opponent you attempt to Feint.
With a misleading flourish, you leave an opponent unprepared for your real attack. Attempt a Deception check against that opponent’s Perception DC.
Critical Success You throw your enemy’s defenses against you entirely off. The target is flat-footed against melee attacks that you attempt against it until the end of your next turn.
Auditory, Concentrate, Emotion, Kobold, Mental
Success Your foe is fooled, but only momentarily. The target is flat-footed against the next melee attack that you attempt against it before the end of your current turn.
Critical Failure Your feint backfires. You are flat-footed against melee attacks the target attempts against you until the end of your next turn.
Prerequisites trained in Deception
With obsequious words and begging gestures, you convince your foe you're less of a threat. You attempt to Feint against a creature. Unlike a normal Feint, the creature can be within 30 feet instead of in your melee reach, and you make your check against its Will DC instead of its Perception DC.
RAW, Grovel does not change the rule that Feint only makes your foe Flat-Footed against your melee attacks: What the actual intent was is pretty much anybody's guess...
As written, Grovel seems to have two main advantages:
- It's a bit safer to use before closing in, as you can decide to stay at a distance if you fail or crit fail.
- It does change the DC calc, but probably not by a lot since both DCs are based on the same ability score.
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Compare to Ricochet feint: (Rogue 12)
While in Ricochet Stance, you can bounce a thrown weapon off a foe to distract them. You can attempt a Feint against a creature within the first range increment of a thrown weapon you are wielding, rather than only creatures within your melee reach."
It still doesn't say that you can use a thrown weapon to attack, and as is, the only benefit is to avoid risk get near because of the flat against the Melee attack of the opponent in a critical miss, for a level 12 feat?
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An ancestry feat that only protects the actor from having to use another action to move away from a target upon a critical failure seems rather...well horrible. I cannot imagine that was the intent with design.
An ancestry feat that only protects the actor from having to use another action to move away from a target upon a critical failure seems rather...well horrible. I cannot imagine that was the intent with design.I mean, there are plenty of baddish feats, so the argument of "I think it's bad therefore it's not that way" doesn't really hold a lot of merit.
Besides, thats not what it "only" does. It also allows you to target will instead of perception. Since monsters with special senses normally get a higher Perc DC than Will DC it also gives you a hidden bonus to land.
Other niche uses is it allowing a caster to get flatfooted bonus with their spiritual weapon (or similar spells), and giving Fencer Swashbucklers a ranged option for Panache gain.
My opinion was never about “it’s bad therefore it’s not”. It was more that it appeared that because it’s a ranged feint, that the design intent would be to allow a follow-up attack at ranged. My guess is that it was old wording that didn’t get updated before release like many things that get errata. I could be wrong, but I would allow it used that way if a player was set on concept and practice didn’t cause balance issues.
Regarding the different DC, I have no idea which DC would be generally higher. Both are based on the same attribute and creatures usually rate a bit higher in all stats.
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Will is absolutely the better save to target, largely because perception is the worst; monsters almost always have good perception, while the three old school saves tend to vary a lot.
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Honestly Grovel does some good things for just one feat.
- Target Will instead of Perception. This can be worth a 2-4 point swing in DC. You can usually tell when a creature is relatively dumb but has a good nose or something like that.
- See the result before committing to going into melee. Feint didn't work? Then you can decide to not close in. Or move differently to a flanking position (often when you flank them, it's also easier for monsters to move to flank you; with grovel you can see beforehand if you really need to). This extra safety is nice considering kobolds have poor constitution.
- Get panache before moving closer as a swashbuckler. And panache gives you more speed so doing this first is nice. And if you fail you could still go Tumble towards your enemy for a second chance at panache.
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Honestly Grovel does some good things for just one feat.
- Target Will instead of Perception. This can be worth a 2-4 point swing in DC. You can usually tell when a creature is relatively dumb but has a good nose or something like that.
- See the result before committing to going into melee. Feint didn't work? Then you can decide to not close in. Or move differently to a flanking position (often when you flank them, it's also easier for monsters to move to flank you; with grovel you can see beforehand if you really need to). This extra safety is nice considering kobolds have poor constitution.
- Get panache before moving closer as a swashbuckler. And panache gives you more speed so doing this first is nice. And if you fail you could still go Tumble towards your enemy for a second chance at panache.
I heavily disagree, you spend 3 actions between grovel, move, attack.
Will and perception use the same attribute.Bonus to will is more common than bonus to perception.
The only "benefit" is from a critical failure.
Create a diversion enable a way to make opponent flat at distance with better action economy and don't expend a level 5 feat.
You are comparing a level 5 feat similar to clever improvise that gives you trained with -2 at all skills you don't have ( at level 7 ). And other level 5 feats like the hobgoblin agonizing rebuke that deal "persistent" damage on a demoralize.
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Monsters don't have ability scores and those with high will do not necessarily have a high perception.
And I'm not sure what you're basing a statement of "a bonus to will is more common than perception" when talking about monsters specifically.
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I heavily disagree, you spend 3 actions between grovel, move, attack.
That's the same three actions you'd use to move, feint, and attack. Except now you know if it's going to work after the first action so you can do something else if not. The Investigator's ability to see the results before approaching seems popular (although that does also have other benefits), and that one costs an action.
Will and perception use the same attribute.
How's that relevant if they don't have the same modifier? Even for PCs, they can have different proficiency bonuses.
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Source Core Rulebook pg. 246 2.0Mental
Requirements You are within melee reach of the opponent you attempt to Feint.
With a misleading flourish, you leave an opponent unprepared for your real attack. Attempt a Deception check against that opponent’s Perception DC.Critical Success You throw your enemy’s defenses against you entirely off. The target is flat-footed against melee attacks that you attempt against it until the end of your next turn.
Success Your foe is fooled, but only momentarily. The target is flat-footed against the next melee attack that you attempt against it before the end of your current turn.
Critical Failure Your feint backfires. You are flat-footed against melee attacks the target attempts against you until the end of your next turn.
Source Advanced Player's Guide pg. 14Auditory, Concentrate, Emotion, Kobold, Mental
Prerequisites trained in Deception
With obsequious words and begging gestures, you convince your foe you're less of a threat. You attempt to Feint against a creature. Unlike a normal Feint, the creature can be within 30 feet instead of in your melee reach, and you make your check against its Will DC instead of its Perception DC.
RAW, Grovel does not change the rule that Feint only makes your foe Flat-Footed against your melee attacks: What the actual intent was is pretty much anybody's guess...
As written, Grovel seems to have two main advantages:
- It's a bit safer to use before closing in, as you can decide to stay at a distance if you fail or crit fail.
- It does change the DC calc, but probably not by a lot since both DCs are based on the same ability score.
I am going to disagree with your interpretation of RAW here.
The key statement is of course
Unlike a normal Feint, the creature can be within 30 feet instead of in your melee reach
This is modifying Feint in a very broad way.
It is quite reasonable to read this statement to modify all limitations of melee reach inside Feint. Not just the targeting part of Feint but the melee attack limitation as well.
There is nothing that limits this just to targetting.
I think it works just fine at range.
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Source Core Rulebook pg. 246 2.0Mental
Requirements You are within melee reach of the opponent you attempt to Feint.
With a misleading flourish, you leave an opponent unprepared for your real attack. Attempt a Deception check against that opponent’s Perception DC.Critical Success You throw your enemy’s defenses against you entirely off. The target is flat-footed against melee attacks that you attempt against it until the end of your next turn.
Success Your foe is fooled, but only momentarily. The target is flat-footed against the next melee attack that you attempt against it before the end of your current turn.
Critical Failure Your feint backfires. You are flat-footed against melee attacks the target attempts against you until the end of your next turn.Source Advanced Player's Guide pg. 14Auditory, Concentrate, Emotion, Kobold, Mental
Prerequisites trained in Deception
With obsequious words and begging gestures, you convince your foe you're less of a threat. You attempt to Feint against a creature. Unlike a normal Feint, the creature can be within 30 feet instead of in your melee reach, and you make your check against its Will DC instead of its Perception DC.
RAW, Grovel does not change the rule that Feint only makes your foe Flat-Footed against your melee attacks: What the actual intent was is pretty much anybody's guess...
As written, Grovel seems to have two main advantages:
- It's a bit safer to use before closing in, as you can decide to stay at a distance if you fail or crit fail.
- It does change the DC calc, but probably not by a lot since both DCs are based on the same ability score.
I am going to disagree with your interpretation of RAW here.
The key statement is of course
Unlike a normal...
They key here is that feint uses two terms for almost the same thing: Melee reach and melee attack.
This avoid a feint, move away and attack with a ranged weapon or spell.But it also make more wording when adjusting it like Grovel and rebounding stance
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They key here is that feint uses two terms for almost the same thing: Melee reach and melee attack.
But in natural English it is quite reasonable to look at the melee part of the concept. The clause could quite reasonably modify all instances of melee in Feint, not just the first.
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I think that it is pretty clear that in order to technically work with ranged attacks, both Grovel and Ricochet Feint need their language modified to be more similar to Pistol Twirl from the Gunslinger playtest.
Your quick gestures and performative flair distract an opponent, leaving them vulnerable to your attack. You Feint against an opponent within the required weapon’s first range increment, rather than an opponent within melee reach. On a success or critical success, the foe is flat-footed against your melee and ranged attacks, rather than only your melee attacks. On a critical failure, you’re flat-footed against both the target’s melee and ranged attacks, rather than only its melee attacks.
There is a very open question what the intent is. I think it would be very niche if it worked only with melee attacks, but it is an Ancestry feat so it would not be tooo surprising. As Taja says, it is pretty much up to anyone's best guess.
If all the feat did was let you change Feint to a will save it would still be among the strongest ancestry feats. Just picking a bad will save monster at random, targeting will instead of perception is a four point swing on a troll.
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If all the feat did was let you change Feint to a will save it would still be among the strongest ancestry feats. Just picking a bad will save monster at random, targeting will instead of perception is a four point swing on a troll.
I think that is normally a small bonus. But it swings the other way on many monsters and you don't really get a choice on which to use.
All that Feint normally does is generate Flat Footed. There are a lot of was to gain flat footed. Most PCs have little trouble finding that bonus in melee quite regularly.
What it seems to do is enable characters like Ranged Rogues, and Feint Swashbucklers to work at a 30ft range.
Defintely strong for an ancestry feat, it is more in class feat territory. But nothing compared to say Boucy Goblin for Swashbuckers in general.
I need you to realize that you called a four point swing a small bonus in the same post you said that a two point swing is one of the best ancestry feats.
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I need you to realize that you called a four point swing a small bonus in the same post you said that a two point swing is one of the best ancestry feats.
To be fair, one of them is situational (target has lower Will than Perception, target isn't immune to Mental) while the other is pretty much always on +2.
EDIT: Not to discount that Grovel has more going for it than I listed. I think Grovel is particularly great for a Fencer Swashbuckler, but it isn't completely apples to apples.
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A four point swing on a small number of monsters, as opposed to a +2 bonus that will apply almost every round.
Frequency matters.
I quickly checked 3 random monsters and saw +2, 0, -2 between their will and perceptions. Has someone got proper numbers on it?
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I quickly checked 3 random monsters and saw +2, 0, -2 between their will and perceptions. Has someone got proper numbers on it?If you follow the creature building rules of GMG, creatures with special senses normally get a perception bonus when compared to will.
I searched AoN for "darkvision" and clicked 50 random entries. 66% (33) creatures with higher perception than will, 22% (11) creatures with equal and 12% (6) with lower perception than will. Of course since there is like 700 creatures with darkvision, these numbers could easily be off one way or another.
From a cursory glance, Creatures with two forms of vision/sense like Purrodaemon's seemed to stack the bonuses, unintelligent creatures like beasts and plants tended to have an equal will/perception (like Ahuizotl)
So it seems that most creatures generally follow the guidelines in the GMG and for the most part, targeting will is either a gain or break even.
Also, is Giant Jellyfish a missprint? there's no way theres a CR7 with only +1 Will, anybody got the book handy?
How many of them are subject to the mental trait? The +1 will save jellyfish definitely is not. Everyone keeps looking at the numbers of will vs perception, but how many of either are actually susceptible to feint?
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I think that the RAI is to enable "ranged" feint but RAW they missed the small print.
And for those talking about how good it is as an ancestry feat at level 5, and all the Will vs Perception...
Can we check Ricochet Feint?
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1805
"While in Ricochet Stance, you can bounce a thrown weapon off a foe to distract them. You can attempt a Feint against a creature within the first range increment of a thrown weapon you are wielding, rather than only creatures within your melee reach."
Similar wording, don't say anything about attack, just let you feint at a thrown weapon first range increment, no "Will vs Perception", no "It would be good at...", and specially no way that it could be considered a good feat with a 8 level feat prerequisite, one action ( stance ) prerequisite and a level 12 feat and don't let you to make a sneak attack with a thrown weapon.
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I don't see Feint as that brilliant of a tactic, because
1) it only helps you, not your allies
2) it is only for one attack
3) it is only flat footed which can be gotten in melee (not ranged) by various other feats almost automatically
So there being a strong bonus to it is not a problem of any kind.
Primarily what it is doing is enabling a certain type of SwashBuckler or a ranged Rogue to have an easier time of it.
They needed the help.
I quickly checked 3 random monsters and saw +2, 0, -2 between their will and perceptions. Has someone got proper numbers on it?If you follow the creature building rules of GMG, creatures with special senses normally get a perception bonus when compared to will.
I searched AoN for "darkvision" and clicked 50 random entries. 66% (33) creatures with higher perception than will, 22% (11) creatures with equal and 12% (6) with lower perception than will. Of course since there is like 700 creatures with darkvision, these numbers could easily be off one way or another.
From a cursory glance, Creatures with two forms of vision/sense like Purrodaemon's seemed to stack the bonuses, unintelligent creatures like beasts and plants tended to have an equal will/perception (like Ahuizotl)
So it seems that most creatures generally follow the guidelines in the GMG and for the most part, targeting will is either a gain or break even.
Also, is Giant Jellyfish a missprint? there's no way theres a CR7 with only +1 Will, anybody got the book handy?
So maybe averaging a +1?
I actually want to use grovel on a scoundrel rogue; scoundrel's feint nerfs reflex saves, so this comboed with bon mot will let my multiclass into a caster and target will and ref saves, or hit with a sneak attack for a eldtrich trickster esque fighting style
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I don't see Feint as that brilliant of a tactic, because
1) it only helps you, not your allies
2) it is only for one attack
3) it is only flat footed which can be gotten in melee (not ranged) by various other feats almost automaticallySo there being a strong bonus to it is not a problem of any kind.
Primarily what it is doing is enabling a certain type of SwashBuckler or a ranged Rogue to have an easier time of it.
They needed the help.
For ranged flat footed you can use Create a diversion action, the only real benefit for a ranged feint is that you can repeat it more easily.
I would be shocked if everyone began playing Kobolds just for access to Grovel (assuming it works to allow the attack at range too).
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For ranged flat footed you can use Create a diversion action, the only real benefit for a ranged feint is that you can repeat it more easily.I don't see Feint as that brilliant of a tactic, because
1) it only helps you, not your allies
2) it is only for one attack
3) it is only flat footed which can be gotten in melee (not ranged) by various other feats almost automaticallySo there being a strong bonus to it is not a problem of any kind.
Primarily what it is doing is enabling a certain type of SwashBuckler or a ranged Rogue to have an easier time of it.
They needed the help.
I still get confused on what is necessary with create a diversion. Succeeding at the deception check makes you hidden (and gives a Fencer Panache). But if you need to move up to attack, you need to Sneak, right? Which means a stealth roll. And if you don’t end the sneak somewhere that you can hide, you become visible? So it seems like it’s pretty hard to actually get the benefit of the flat-footed condition if you create a diversion from a distance. Though at least it’s a way to gain Panache.
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I still get confused on what is necessary with create a diversion. Succeeding at the deception check makes you hidden (and gives a Fencer Panache). But if you need to move up to attack, you need to Sneak, right? Which means a stealth roll. And if you don’t end the sneak somewhere that you can hide, you become visible? So it seems like it’s pretty hard to actually get the benefit of the flat-footed condition if you create a diversion from a distance. Though at least it’s a way to gain Panache.For ranged flat footed you can use Create a diversion action, the only real benefit for a ranged feint is that you can repeat it more easily.I don't see Feint as that brilliant of a tactic, because
1) it only helps you, not your allies
2) it is only for one attack
3) it is only flat footed which can be gotten in melee (not ranged) by various other feats almost automaticallySo there being a strong bonus to it is not a problem of any kind.
Primarily what it is doing is enabling a certain type of SwashBuckler or a ranged Rogue to have an easier time of it.
They needed the help.
If you are hidden for your target, the opponent is flat footed too. Unlike feint, it don't say anything about melee attack.
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Oh, I see. You meant to combine with Flying Blade or something like that. Yes, that looks like it works. I was comparing it to Feinting with Grovel then moving up to attack. It seems like Create a Diversion isn't as useful for that, since once you move (as far as I can tell) all of the other restrictions around Stealth apply.
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A four point swing on a small number of monsters, as opposed to a +2 bonus that will apply almost every round.
Frequency matters.
I quickly checked 3 random monsters and saw +2, 0, -2 between their will and perceptions. Has someone got proper numbers on it?
I did check out the numbers in detail when the Swashbuckler first came out and if you use the Bestiary then it's a big bonus. There is a clear progression in the liklihood of a creature having a high save/perception DC. If you select only Bestiary creatures then targetting Perception is the worse, then Fortitude, then Reflexes then Will. The number of creatures with a Will save higher than their perception DC is very small.
This had changed a bit in Bestiary 2 and there was a much better spread of high scores for the monsters. I think they realised they had gone overboard on Perception DCs in the orignal Bestiary.
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Oh, I see. You meant to combine with Flying Blade or something like that. Yes, that looks like it works. I was comparing it to Feinting with Grovel then moving up to attack. It seems like Create a Diversion isn't as useful for that, since once you move (as far as I can tell) all of the other restrictions around Stealth apply.
With sneak attack for example to trigger the extra damage or just to increase the Hit chance.