Greater Grapple says this:
Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.
The bolded parts are the parts I have questions about.
So first, the lead sentence implies that this kicks in only after the creature is already grappled. This seems to mean that the initial attempt is still done as a standard action. It is only the maintain attempts that are move actions. Correct so far?
The problem comes with the last sentence, suggesting that success at either check in a round will maintain. Because what if one of the checks was the initial attempt, not to maintain but just to start the grapple?
In other words, a creature with Greater Grapple does a 5' step toward a target, does the initial grapple attempt as a standard action and succeeds, and then uses a move action to maintain but fails. At this point, Greater Grapple is invoked, because success at one of two attempts means the creature remains grappled.
(My issue, if it's not obvious, is that the cool "maintain as a move action" grapple checks are only happening once during the initial round. So if you fail to maintain in the initial round, you cannot do a 2nd maintain attempt in order to cover up the failure and keep the grapple. I would say that the grapple ends. However, what if a player focuses on the line "This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round" and couples that with "You only need to succeed at one of these checks" to argue that even on the initial round, failing to maintain will not release the grapple, because the initial set up roll also counts and therefore the grapple is maintained. Basically, I need to know if "one of two rolls" means 1 of any 2 grapple rolls, or if it means 1 of the 2 special move-action attempts.)
You do not need to maintain round one even if you have greater grapple. I have always run it as you cannot use greater grapple unless you were already in the grapple for at least a round because you cannot grapple someone as a move action only maintain.
I agree that you don't need to maintain in round 1. The question is: the player chooses to maintain in round 1, so can this fail? Or is the GG rule about "only 1 of the 2 attempts needs to succeed" going to cover up a failure in round 1?
How greater grapple works is it changes the action to maintain from standard to move. This allows you to perform more actions while grappling than normal as well as allows you to attempt two grapple checks (one as a move, the second as a standard) if you wish to. You can do the two checks in one round to expedite pinning and tying up a target if you wish, or for a second attempt to maintain if your initial attempt failed. The last line enables use of the second attempt in the event you fail your initial maintain. Normally if you fail to maintain, the grapple ends right then. Greater grapple essentially allows you to attempt to reengage the grapple after a sloppy attempt to maintain it. Also, as others have pointed out as well, you only roll to maintain the grapple starting on round 2.
In the hypothetical event that a player still has their move action on round one and rolls to maintain (presumably to move, apply damage, pin, or tie up) then, yes the grapple stays maintained even if that check fails since the initial grapple must have succeeded to even get to that point. If either check made in that round succeed, the grapple maintains. However, as noted if this is the first round of grapple, you must succeed on the initial check before you can even attempt a second check as a move action. Also, if you fail the check, you still do not get your extra action as part of the grapple, the feat simply allows you to keep the grapple maintained so long as one check that round succeeds.
you only roll to maintain the grapple starting on round 2.
OK. Since multiple people are saying this, let's add some context.
With Greater Grapple, making a grapple check is a move action only once you grapple a creature.
Greater Grapple turns maintaining into a move action -- a normal not-special move action, like any other move action that can be combined with a standard action in a single round. There is no text in Greater Grapple that qualifies the move action as somehow special and unable to be combined with the standard action that initiates the grapple.
I understand why people here might insist that maintaining as a move action can only be done on round 2 -- because then if the rule about "you get 2 tries to maintain and only 1 has to succeed" comes into play, you can easily apply the rule while avoiding the edge case that I'm in. However, nothing in the rules allows us to avoid the edge case. So I'm embracing the edge case -- the "2 tries to maintain and if either one works then the grapple is maintained" is now being applied in round 1 where there weren't 2 tries to maintain. There was 1 check to initiate the grapple, and then 1 maintain.
Because there were not 2 move-action maintain checks on round 1, I put forward that the single maintain action that failed results in failure, and the grapple is lost. Greater Grapple's "you get 2 tries to maintain and only 1 has to succeed" never kicks in, because there never were 2 maintain attempts.
Having said that, I also believe in getting the temperature of the room and understanding what is happening in the community. And it's clear that the community does not differentiate between the normal standard action to start a grapple and the move action to maintain that was granted by Greater Grapple. Because the community doesn't distinguish between these 2 things, I won't either. If a player initiates with a standard and wins, but then maintains with a move and fails, the net result is that the target/victim is still grappled, but whatever was going to happen with the maintain action (such as damaging the target) doesn't happen.
Thank you all for the advice. Much appreciated.
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It’s worth noting that Mark Seifter has posted the opposite, that you cannot maintain on the round that you initiate a grapple. He also stated as much in his video for Arcane Mark on grappling.
Even if the enemy moved up to the tetori, you can't maintain during the same round you established. The only way I can think of to pull it off is with Snapping Turtle Clutch to establish off turn and then maintain on your own next turn for the pin and tie up.
The Arcane Mark episode is the closest we’re ever going to get to a grapple FAQ, though none of these things (James Jacobs’ older post included) are official. So basically ask your GM how it works in their game.
At any rate, if you are allowed to maintain in the first round, I don’t think you’d lose the grapple if you failed, since you’ve already succeeded at one grapple check in the round.
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What James Jacobs and other proponents of a "pin in one round" ruling ignore is that Greater Grapple doesn't grant a move action check to worsen the condition, it changes the action cost of the check to maintain.
What do the rules say about that term? "If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold." This rule can't possibly apply to the first round, otherwise, no one without the feat could hold a grapple; there is nothing in the feat description that changes that.
The feat talks about "two grapple checks each round", but it gives the list of options as "to move, harm, or pin your opponent" - 'to initiate' is not on that list, so clearly, the initial check is not what that sentence talks about (rather, the check to maintain, the options aviable when doing that match the list).
The option to move/damage/pin/tie up the target is strictly tied to maintaining the grapple, which simply isn't done until the second round.