How would you adjudicate this situation:
A Ranger equipped with a bow wants to trip an enemy by shooting him in the leg/ankle.
On the one hand, there aren't any rules on this particular maneuver. On the other, it seems like a perfectly reasonable/cinematic/fantasy combat maneuver.
The same situation could be applied to say, disarm or maybe stretching disbelief a little bit even grapple, (at least in the context of pinning a foe to a wall/tree/the ground/etc).
I wouldn't let a bow with an arrow trip someone.
On the other hand, a hatchet might be reasonable.
If you want the most strict RAW view. their are weapons which have a range of more than 5ft (meteor hammer for example is a reach weapon) which also have the trip trait.
Because it has trip and reach, you could use it to trip at "range".
It doesn't appear that there are any thrown or ranged weapons with the trip trait though, so by the rules it doesn't appear you can trip someone with a "real ranged" weapon.
Though I think there probably should be some thrown weapons with the trip trait.
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There are thrown weapons with the Ranged Trip trip. Bolas and Aklys.
The regular trip trait uses reach, not range.
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As for adjudicating it with a bow, I suppose that if I decided to allow it I suppose I would use a ranged attack at a large penalty against reflex. No other combination if roll and DC makes sense to me, but allowing a straight, unpenalized roll is the kind if thing that turns it from a cool moment to a standard tactic.
Whether or not I'd want to allow it in the first place... I'd need to read the group carefully. Some groups care more about the rules being consistent than others. I would be ESPECIALLY concerned about not ending up with a player who planned around and invested into being good at things like tripping not ending up feeling cheated because the ranger got to do it at range without any investment. That kind of thing can be terrible for a game, even if no one says anything about it at the time.
Of course all of that is Advice answers. The Rules Question answer is simple: that maneuver doesn't work.
I wouldn't let a bow with an arrow trip someone.
If you were running/walking and someone shot an arrow through your ankle do you think you'd fall down? Stumble? Slow Down?
Stuff I already know
The reason I said "adjudicate" is precisely because I know there isn't a rule for this. I'm asking how people would implement a new rule. If your answer is "I wouldn't" then you don't need to respond to my question.
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Adjudicate it within the rules that exist. The critical specialization for bows pins the target to an adjacent surface.
Level 1 archers shouldn't be able to pinpoint target body parts.
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If you're looking for houserules, obviously there's a Forum for that, but I would suggest a –4 penalty to the Athletics check, since weapons with the Ranged Trip Trait already imbue a –2 penalty. The increased penalty would reflect the difficulty of the maneuver.
Also make sure you're not allowing any damage, since regular Ranged Trip items don't deal damage when tripping, either.
I wouldn't let a bow with an arrow trip someone.If you were running/walking and someone shot an arrow through your ankle do you think you'd fall down? Stumble? Slow Down?
Maybe, but there are no rules for called shots to a part of the body and the rules don't currently allow you to make trip attacks with something like a bow.
Personally I don't think an arrow will ever cause you to trip, though slow down could be reasonable. The crit specialization effect of bows kind of captures this.
But you should know, and I think you're aware, you're straight up in house rules territory.
That said, with everything everyone else has already stated, if I were housing ruling it I'd probably:
Make it a feat. As other mentioned it probably is a relatively high level feat, wont deal damage, and may only actually knock someone prone on a critical success, while a success might make them flat-footed instead.
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From the Gunslinger playtest
CALLED SHOT [two-actions] FEAT 10
FLOURISH GUNSLINGER
You target a specific part of your foe’s body, damaging the
chosen limb or body part in a way that hinders your foe’s
ability to move, fight, or think. Declare a portion of your foe’s
anatomy to target and make a ranged weapon Strike. If you
hit and deal damage, apply one of the following effects to the
target until the end of your next turn, based on the body part
you targeted.
• Arms (or another limb used for attacks, such as a
tentacle) The target is enfeebled 2. On a critical hit, it’s
also enfeebled 1 for 1 minute.
• Head The target is stupefied 2. On a critical hit, it’s also
stupefied 1 for 1 minute.
• Legs (or tail on a legless creature) The target takes a
–10-foot status penalty to its Speeds. On a critical hit, it
also takes –5-foot penalty to its Speeds for 1 minute.
• Wings If the target is flying using its wings, it immediately
falls 20 feet, or 40 feet on a critical hit. The fall is gradual
enough that if it causes the target to hit the ground, the
target takes no damage from the fall.
I think "I wouldn't let them" is sharing how one would adjudicate it.
And that'd be my reflexive response too. (Like others, I'm wary of setting precedents, especially such obviously strong ones.)
After reading these posts, I think a lot of people are being generous. As RB quotes, even the Gunslinger feat (which some have called out as breaking the meta) only hampers speed. And the Fighter Knockdown feats are two-actions in melee, so one-action from range is pretty strong.
If "Rule of Cool" came up (because cinematic/narrative value of that specific moment) then I might allow somebody to swap the crit effect AND lose the bonus damage. (It's hard to imagine an arrow hitting hard enough to tumble a person without having wounded that person).
So they can shoot it, and if they get a crit, they trip and do normal damage. Many of my players are the types to take that gamble, and most also know it'd better be important to gamble so.
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There is one case where I would be more likely to want to allow the attempt. If I'm running a Chase instead of an Encounter Mode grid combat, I find that's a great time to play a lot of things very fast and loose.
There are thrown weapons with the Ranged Trip trip. Bolas and Aklys.
This is how I'd adjudicate it: hand them a bolas and let them go to town. I don't see a reason to allow a bow to gain traits it doesn't have: there is a reason weapons that can trip are stated out the way they are. I could see some kind of class feat as a possibility, but trip just doesn't seem very reasonable/cinematic with your normal pointy arrow [it's more likely to pierce the leg than bloodlessly trip them]. Now it we where talking about bolas arrows or some kind of blunt arrow, that'd sound more reasonable: you just have to look at the critical specializations to see what weapons the game think can trip [flails and hammers].
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If they were in a tight spot, wanted to invest a Hero Point, and wanted to get creative I would probably let it fly by allowing it with a roll to hit AC and then a separate Perception Check versus the opponent's Athletics DC. If they beat both of these the Strike deals no damage and applies no Weapon Effect or Traits to the attack but they are tripped, three Action cost to perform.
This isn't something that would become part of their toolkit or something they just DO but if they really wanted to go for it I'd make the rule of cool handle it in that situation but just flat out allowing this kind of thing on any ol' turn and circumstance isn't something I just do, at least not without seriously sitting down with the player to help them maybe come up with a homebrew Class Feat to make it work on the regular.
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Now it we where talking about bolas arrows or some kind of blunt arrow, that'd sound more reasonable: you just have to look at the critical specializations to see what weapons the game think can trip [flails and hammers].
Blunt arrows that deal bludgeoning damage from a bow and substitute the Hammer critical specialization effect seem like a cool and reasonable idea.
I’m not sure I’d make them common, but I’d definitely allow them, and wouldn’t make access too difficult. Either a day of downtime spent looking in a settlement with some sort of appropriate check or use of the Inventor feat.
Now it we where talking about bolas arrows or some kind of blunt arrow, that'd sound more reasonable: you just have to look at the critical specializations to see what weapons the game think can trip [flails and hammers].Blunt arrows that deal bludgeoning damage from a bow and substitute the Hammer critical specialization effect seem like a cool and reasonable idea.
I’m not sure I’d make them common, but I’d definitely allow them, and wouldn’t make access too difficult. Either a day of downtime spent looking in a settlement with some sort of appropriate check or use of the Inventor feat.
They make Bludgeon and Blunt Tips for small game/birds now and they seem like they'd be useful to have for a hunter and at least as easy to make as other types of arrow heads. So I can't see a reason they couldn't exist in PF2: The critical specialization effect would be the sticking point for me as I'd be inclined to use club instead of hammer after thinking about it.
I think maybe magic arrows could work by modifying the Antler Arrow: instead of growing antlers to activate the bow critical specialization you could just have it grow a hammer head to activate the hammer critical specialization. EDIT: You could also make it change into a bolas head and use the flail critical specialization.
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Sounds like an interesting thing to integrate into the Inventor class. Trick arrows.
That said, as far as improvising a shot to the ankle to slow someone down? As mentioned, take an existing feat that does it, add penalties for using it with the wrong equipment and not having that feat, and call it a one-off cinematic thing. If it's needed.
You can already make your weapon Versatile or Modular, so you can easily make your bows deal bludgeoning damage.
Those seem REALLY odd on a missile weapon, which I noted in the survey. The traits suggests that you are doing something different with the weapon instead of using different ammo. I struggle to see what you add to a bow or a different way or holding/shooting a bot that results in a bludgeoning attack.
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You can already make your weapon Versatile or Modular, so you can easily make your bows deal bludgeoning damage.Those seem REALLY odd on a missile weapon, which I noted in the survey. The traits suggests that you are doing something different with the weapon instead of using different ammo. I struggle to see what you add to a bow or a different way or holding/shooting a bot that results in a bludgeoning attack.
I personally imagine instead of "firing" the arrow straight from the bow it manages to whip the projectile into a kind of super-fast spin movement that batters the target with the shaft of the arrow, kind of like a long nasty lash from a switch.
I personally imagine instead of "firing" the arrow straight from the bow it manages to whip the projectile into a kind of super-fast spin movement that batters the target with the shaft of the arrow, kind of like a long nasty lash from a switch.You can already make your weapon Versatile or Modular, so you can easily make your bows deal bludgeoning damage.Those seem REALLY odd on a missile weapon, which I noted in the survey. The traits suggests that you are doing something different with the weapon instead of using different ammo. I struggle to see what you add to a bow or a different way or holding/shooting a bot that results in a bludgeoning attack.
That sounds more a feat for a trick shot than a basic maneuver that even the untrained can so on a regular basis as it's in inherent ability of the weapon...
I mean an Inventor's innovation bow is pretty much a unique thing. No one knows how to use it so AT best they are at -3 to use it (everyone but that Inventor is untrained) and only gets worse past level 1. So it isn't really a basic manouvre anyone can pull off.
What you just said isn't true: they 1000% CAN do the maneuver, it's just that are bad at it. There is a difference.
And even if the trait is quite dull and mundane to put on a bow, the weapon itself is not, they are afterall described as "Your innovation is an impossible-looking weapon
augmented by numerous unusual gadgets."
I'm not sure what "dull and mundane" have to do with anything: I was talking about traits that just don't make sense when added to projectile weapons IMO.
Sounds like an interesting thing to integrate into the Inventor class. Trick arrows.You can already make your weapon Versatile or Modular, so you can easily make your bows deal bludgeoning damage. Assuming they don't remove that option before the real class comes out.
I was thinking more of Ranged Trip and Grapple options.