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Pathfinder, like D&D 3.x before it, has relatively fast advancement through the levels.
When designing an environment the challenge ratings need to scale in order to accommodate the advancement. However, once you scale the challenge ratings you run the risk of the players taking the challenge out-of-sequence. If the players make a connection, or leap of logic, that puts them ahead of the curve -- why should they be punished by an unreasonably tough set of encounters?
Is not the "Skyrim" approach better? That is that the monsters adjust based on the order in which you encounter them? Or, is there a way that players could be given a "spidey-sense" -- a way of determining the the basic Challenge Rating of an encounter? That way you could build a consistent world and the players have a better chance of recognizing the dangers and adjusting to the world.
As it works now it seems to favour a linear approach.
Thoughts?
I disagree strenuously. The environment doesn't need to scale.
This results in not Skyrim, but Oblivion. The world seems to spontaneously become more dangerous, wolves are replaced by bears, and then mountain lions and then monstrous templated mountain lions, and never again does a living being see a scamp or a bandit in normal armor because the four or five guys who the world seems to mysteriously revovle around are levelling up.
The trick to a non-linear environment is to create an ecosystem of low CR to high. Then you end up with the dragon and his roostings high in the mountain and the goblin tribes below, with a few odd thigns wandering about, or perhaps grave complexes that are hidden.
I'd argue the knowledge skills are there for that purpose.
DM: 'You see a multilegged blue dragon thing.'
PC: Knowledge (Arcana) comes back high.
DM:"Its a Behir. These are its capabilities..."
PC: ...yeah uh guys, we should beat feet.
Pathfinder, like D&D 3.x before it, has relatively fast advancement through the levels.
When designing an environment the challenge ratings need to scale in order to accommodate the advancement. However, once you scale the challenge ratings you run the risk of the players taking the challenge out-of-sequence. If the players make a connection, or leap of logic, that puts them ahead of the curve -- why should they be punished by an unreasonably tough set of encounters?
I don't see this as a punishment.
I think Kingmaker handed it reasonably well; every area has a local average CR, and people can tell you not to cross the Black River because there are ferocious vorpal bunnies on the other side. If you decide you want to go over there anyway, you know you're going to encounter ferocious vorpal bunnies and even scarier things that prey on the vorpal bunnies.
You can warn them, either with knowledge checks, or equal level NPC colleagues warning them about something.
You can scale monsters up and down if you like, that's just some extra work.
I tend to do a world built naturally. The players be dum, and go where the vorpal bunnies roam, well...
I tend to agree with the ecosystem notion. Though I will admit, after level 10, ecosystem stops being a problem and the enemies should be coming after YOU
"The trick to a non-linear environment is to create an ecosystem of low CR to high. Then you end up with the dragon and his roostings high in the mountain and the goblin tribes below, with a few odd thigns wandering about, or perhaps grave complexes that are hidden."
That is as artificial as scaling the challenge in front of them.
Not really. Everyone knows that some areas in the real world are more dangerous than others. Hell, some urban areas are more dangerous than others, and one of the things that college students get briefed on during their first few days of orientation is "don't cross 30th street after dark."
In general, the farther you get from civilization, the more likely you are to encounter something really dangerous, which is why I can't remember the last time someone was mauled by a bear in downtown Chicago. Or, for that matter, downtown Helena, Montana.
I guess so, but at low levels your skill will be low when you need it most.
It doesn't take much skill to know that big scary monsters are dangerous. Even if that's ALL you know, that's enough to let you get out of town. And if you're wandering around in the wilderness without any appropriate knowledge skills, it's not artificial to suggest that you could easily be in trouble. People die doing that. Usually tenderfeet.
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I've adopted the "skyrim" approach for my sandboxes. I want the players to go where they want and find adventure they can handle and enjoy. Now with that said, I also have exceptions to that rule. There might be local stories about a giant that will not tolerate trespassers. There might be a legend of an old dragon living somewhere in the desert. Maybe an infamous pirate captain is feared out in the open seas. PCs can fidn out about these things through knwoledge skills and listenign to stories/rumors in towns/cities.
I don't think this is a problem, in fact I think it is more of a problem for immersion when every encounter is at an appropriate CR. It is not logical that a party would never encounter anything that is too easy or too hard. A "real" world just would not be like this. In fact the CR/EL system is explicitly counter logical. For instance:
1. Low CR encounters (monsters and challenges) should be the most common. Thus a common orc should be encountered far more frequently than a huge red dragon. This works well at low levels when a party encounters low CR common creatures mostly. But as characters advance in level they encounter fewer and fewer common low CR creatures and more and more uncommon/high CR creatures. Reality starts to fall apart.
Why is it that a mid to high level party never encounters a CR 1 orc but encounters a demon, red dragon, giant and horrible abomination from beyond all in one day. Well challenge is the reason but it is not logical.
2. Skills are even worse. At low levels a rogue encounters only cheap locks but by the time he is a high level rogue every lock is a masterpiece. Shouldn't most locks still be cheap, after all the only thing that has changed is the skill of the rogue.
The CR/EL system creates a world/reality that adapts to the party which when you think about it doesn't make a lot of sense.
I would rather my high level character blast through common challenges occasionally if only to reinforce that it is the character that has evolved not the world around him.
I think the key thing is the enviroment of the adventure doesn't have to be the same as the country side. As long as the reason its different makes sense.
One thing also is if the players decide rgeir own adventure course to stop the weak bandits on the town rather than agrod the defiler who rules them from the mountains that's their choice. The weak bandits stay weak.
In video games I don't like the eveeyrhing levels up method. At least in the computer games it just made raiding npc bandits for glass armor easy.
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I don't think this is a problem, in fact I think it is more of a problem for immersion when every encounter is at an appropriate CR. It is not logical that a party would never encounter anything that is too easy or too hard. A "real" world just would not be like this. In fact the CR/EL system is explicitly counter logical. For instance:
1. Low CR encounters (monsters and challenges) should be the most common. Thus a common orc should be encountered far more frequently than a huge red dragon. This works well at low levels when a party encounters low CR common creatures mostly. But as characters advance in level they encounter fewer and fewer common low CR creatures and more and more uncommon/high CR creatures. Reality starts to fall apart.
Why is it that a mid to high level party never encounters a CR 1 orc but encounters a demon, red dragon, giant and horrible abomination from beyond all in one day. Well challenge is the reason but it is not logical.
2. Skills are even worse. At low levels a rogue encounters only cheap locks but by the time he is a high level rogue every lock is a masterpiece. Shouldn't most locks still be cheap, after all the only thing that has changed is the skill of the rogue.
The CR/EL system creates a world/reality that adapts to the party which when you think about it doesn't make a lot of sense.
I would rather my high level character blast through common challenges occasionally if only to reinforce that it is the character that has evolved not the world around him.
Yeah, I call this the 'DM Arms Race.'
It really annoys me. I first really observed the phenomena back when I played NWN1. I'd level up and grab something like Improved Trip, which should have worked wonders on the low level orcs I'd fought, only to discover normal orcs never appeared, and now they were all 'orc besekers.' Its bad because it robs you of the feeling of advancement.
Stuff like 'Man, I have this skill, now those orcs will get whomped!' and instead you encounter elite orcs against whom the skill just lets you break even, and you improve again and once again so have they and you're just keeping up.
Ultimately rather than feeling like you improve, you feel like you're in some state of Mutually Assured Destruction and unless you keep amassing skills, your enemies will overcome you.
High CR creatures should be built into the world to avoid this sort of thing. It also makes it easier to explain stuff like 'Wait, why didn't the demon king who lived here just take over the kingdom?' or 'Wait, why is Orc King Gut-thrush guarding a chest in a shack?"
I still think it is normal for more experienced parties to encounter more challenging things, for a few reasons:
1) Reputation: At level 1, anybody will be willing to try to bash your head in. But if you're higher level, those CR 1 Orcs can recognize you and say HELL NO! They know better... The same will go for your (potential) enemies; if they are smart, they will prepare defenses that they believe will be adequate against you.
Also, if the king/lord/whatever knows of your power, they will send you against those things they believe you can handle.
2) Challenge: I will definitely agree that 90% of the the locks in a world will be low quality. But at higher level, you arent going to be going after the lowly peasant's home. You'll be trying to rob the rich merchant (who can afford the locks), or the devious mechanisms of the tombs of a long-lost people (who REALLY wanted to keep their dead safe).
Same goes for monsters: yeah, you could go after a measly Kobold Warren at level 10, but why bother? Your skills can be better used to deal with a demon infestation (or something else). The lower "challenges" still exist, they simply arent pertinent anymore.
Ok, what I'm saying deals with something rather abstract, but to me it's largely sufficient to me. And it requires changing you challenges "organically":
Low level, fight average orcish bandits; level 5, king says "Oh shizzle, an orc army is coming, we need peeps to fight", and you fight HORDES of orcs & a few elites. Level 10, the option exists to go after orc warchiefs, though they may come after you if you hurt enough of the horde.
I will admit, I prefer sending LARGE groups of units, just strong engouh to hurt the PCs with decent tactics, but numerous enough to use the action economy against them.
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I ran a sandbox game last summer, and my trick was just not building things more than a week or two in advance.
They decide to head East at the end of the last session? Their 5th level, so I'll make sure the average CR is around 5 in that area. If the locals have espoused that area is particularly dangerous, the average CR will be 6 instead.
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Pathfinder, like D&D 3.x before it, has relatively fast advancement through the levels.
When designing an environment the challenge ratings need to scale in order to accommodate the advancement.
Not really. Once the PCs outpace the challenges, their progression will slow. They will either be the big fish in a small pond or need to go find bigger challenges to test themselves on. A CR ecosystem can easily support this without being artificial.
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likewise I would rather my low level character occasionally encounter something well beyond his abilities if only to remind him that the world his big and there are things beyond him.
Not really. Once the PCs outpace the challenges, their progression will slow. They will either be the big fish in a small pond or need to go find bigger challenges to test themselves on. A CR ecosystem can easily support this without being artificial.Pathfinder, like D&D 3.x before it, has relatively fast advancement through the levels.
When designing an environment the challenge ratings need to scale in order to accommodate the advancement.
A much better expression of what I have been trying to say.
All in all this doesn't really bother me in the sense that I think the game needs to be changed. I just sometimes shake my head after encountering the 10th best lock ever made in a row.
I personally think sandbox adventures help with this problem because you will occasionally run into something not your EL.
The problem I have it is very artificial. It creates "zones of CR" but I like the rest of the world more dappled -- full of pied beauty.
Actually this is not artificial, but emulates reality. Any beast in a given area, say a bear in the forest. There is one specific location that serves as its lair. There's probably one primary water source, and then there are probably specific areas in the woods it is most likely found - near the honey tree, a boulder pile with delicious insects found. While the forest itself might be fairly vast, the bear is not going to be found in every possible area of woodlands, rather 90% of its time is going to be spent in the lair, feeding, watering, resource areas for the bear. If a bigger, meaner threat comes along, either the bear confronts it or it relocates to a different area of the forest.
Thus areas inhabited by this bear is going to create a base CR of itself in the area it is found. In areas the bear avoids because a greater threat exists or ranges, a higher base CR will represent that area. Other areas of the same woodlands may be greater or lesser CR based on who lives there.
This is the common behavior for all animals (and people for that matter), so why would this seem artificial?
All in all this doesn't really bother me in the sense that I think the game needs to be changed. I just sometimes shake my head after encountering the 10th best lock ever made in a row.
I don't know. If all ten of those locks were in the Patrician's palace,... you're surprised that he hired one very good locksmith to do all his locks?
Even if only five of them were in the Patrician's palace, and the other five were in the townhouse of the Count de Money,... you're surprised that the Count hires the same locksmith as the Patrician?
If at 10th level, you're still knocking over taverns for the cash in the till and killing giant rats in the sewers for the 1cp bounty on their hides,... yes, you should still be dealing with cheap locks. But who does that? At 10th level, if you're not in a place where a very good lock makes sense, you're probably in the wrong place.
The problem I have it is very artificial. It creates "zones of CR" but I like the rest of the world more dappled -- full of pied beauty.
The problem is that the real world shows exactly this behavior, so it's hardly artificial. If you're in an area where there's not enough small game to support a lion, you won't see any lions. If you're in an area where there is enough small game to support a lion, but something else has hunted out all the lions, there won't be any lions, but there will probably be whatever is mean enough to scare the lions away.
All in all this doesn't really bother me in the sense that I think the game needs to be changed. I just sometimes shake my head after encountering the 10th best lock ever made in a row.I don't know. If all ten of those locks were in the Patrician's palace,... you're surprised that he hired one very good locksmith to do all his locks?
Even if only five of them were in the Patrician's palace, and the other five were in the townhouse of the Count de Money,... you're surprised that the Count hires the same locksmith as the Patrician?
If at 10th level, you're still knocking over taverns for the cash in the till and killing giant rats in the sewers for the 1cp bounty on their hides,... yes, you should still be dealing with cheap locks. But who does that? At 10th level, if you're not in a place where a very good lock makes sense, you're probably in the wrong place.
Nah, I get that the prince will have good locks, what I don't get is why the evil wizard who created his unholy hideout hired an incompetent locksmith to make the lock on the front door but a master to create the locks on the level 5 pantrye. Or why the trapsmith on level one did such shoddy work while on level 8 the traps would make grimstooth say WTF!
Nah, I get that the prince will have good locks, what I don't get is why the evil wizard who created his unholy hideout hired an incompetent locksmith to make the lock on the front door but a master to create the locks on the level 5 pantrye. Or why the trapsmith on level one did such shoddy work while on level 8 the traps would make grimstooth say WTF!
What, you've never hired a contractor, auto mechanic, an attorney or some other service provider who was supposed to be highly qualified for his job and ended up doing substandard work for you? This has never happened to you? Just because someone has a reputation for good work doesn't mean every job that person does will be his/her best work. Anybody can do substandard work, even if not all the time.
Did the prince have a blue book or Angie's List to know for sure the locksmith he was hiring was guaranteed to do masterwork level quality? Unless the prince, or somebody on his staff has some skill at examining a lock to tell if its high quality on a finished job - how can anybody know for certain that an appropriate level of craftsmanship has been applied to any given job? You cannot guarantee that, no matter who you are. Most people won't micromanage every service work done for a given home or project - missing a shoddy lock job as one part of an overall security project is hardly unexpected.
Granted for in-game mechanical purposes it only makes sense that an appropriate challenge fitting the current level of play, a lock ought to be appropriate for a rogue of the level it targets. That is metagame logic though, as reality is much less dependable.
I can see possibilities of shoddy work for any crafted thing in any circumstance. Its not unrealistic to find this happening in a game.
In general, the farther you get from civilization, the more likely you are to encounter something really dangerous,
Sometimes it seems to be the opposite for the monsters. Your low-level adventurers stay near the city and venture outwards once they gain level. Meanwhile, the low-CR monsters venture farther than their high-CR counterparts.
You are tasked with stopping the orc invasion. The CR the party faces gets progressively higher as you near the orc camp. But if you look at it from the flip side it means that when the orc chief sent out his minions, his CR5 warriors struggled to put their boots on, the CR3 only made it halfway, and only his CR1 mooks managed to successfully assault the city.
I usually just ignore this as one of those playability trumps reality situations. If the first thing your party saw upon leaving the city gates was the orc elites leading the vanguard, then that could lead to a very short campaign.
I think there's a simple explanation for this, which is that, basically, the bad guy has not yet managed to fully carry out his plan. Until the moment when the CR5 elite shock troops actually appear at the walls of the city.... by which time, you're probably hosed, granted,... you're only going to be dealing with scouts and skirmishers that are keeping an eye on the place while the heavies are getting their acts together.
For example, bear in mind that Frodo and Company were dealing with orcs all up and down the Great River, and that Gondor has been fighting skirmishes with orcs literally for generations. It took years for Sauron to put together the Big Hammer that was supposed to smash Minas Tirith for good, but once that happened, the battle was over in a few hours. Even when the troops were mobilized, Sauron was using skirmishers and shock troops to get across the river in order to create a secure landing spot for the heavies and siege equipment.
So the reason that you're fighting CR1 mooks at the start is because, at least initially, you have the initiative and you're able to meet the orcs on your terms, instead of on theirs.
Nah, I get that the prince will have good locks, what I don't get is why the evil wizard who created his unholy hideout hired an incompetent locksmith to make the lock on the front door but a master to create the locks on the level 5 pantrye.
Low bid.
The same reason that the wizard dresses in silks and furs while his minions dress in burlap. If someone gets in through the front door, he can slaughter all the minions, but if someone gets into the pantry, he can eat my supply of Cheeze Wiz(ard). Naturally I'm going to spend more money to protect what's important -- I can always get more minions.
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If you can draw a CR Map of your realm much like a topographic map, it doesn't seem to make sense to me. It sure would make running games easier though. The wandering monster tables in 1st edition were actually quite good: lots of low-level monsters, fewer mid-levels, and a couple of Party-Killers.
And much like elevation maps, CRs would not be equal across individual zones. There would be a range.
I'm not sure that is a natural population distribution. Apex predators are dispersed across the whole African savanna. Every healthy population has a distribution from prey to predator, typically represented by the trophic level or food chain.
But the specifics depend on the specifics of the area. Lions, for example, don't typically eat mice, so they're going to be going where there are enough of the specific prey that they are looking for, and not much of anything that's going to be able to out-compete a lion.
A family of mountain giants -- rather than struggle to stay in the middle of the heap amongst their peers -- would move into any niche in the eco-system that was easy for them.
Well, only if "that was easy for them" includes other factors like "mountain giants don't do well in the savannah."
But, yes. If you want to treat mountain giants as apex predators (which seems reasonable), they're going to live someplace where there's enough food for them to eat, which in turn will typically mean a reasonable number of mid-CR creatures, because they probably can't live on mice either, and also someplace where they aren't going to be stomped by titans. The things that are going to be able to live with the titans are the things that are bad-assed or quick enough enough not to be stomped by titans,.... and in that case, they've got an easier time of it in the titans' area because all the mountain giants have left.
You'd probably always use both CR rated areas plus random monster tables. While its true that a given CR rated area will include beasts of much lower CR that serve as food for the threat in the area and if the CR rated monster of the area is asleep in its lair, than effectively the area has a lower CR, at least until it wakes up. And for the random table, just because a given hex is CR 4, doesn't mean that randomly, a higher/lower CR beast might also be there.
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I detested Oblivion and its scaling encounters. Bandits wielding glass weapons and armor, etc. Immersion-breaking, imho.
In an rpg, we have the luxury of skipping over low-level encounters.
Level 1: "There are rumours of orcs in the nearby woods!"
Level 5: "The orc king's patrols are no match for you, (hand waving forest encounters) but they are numerous. He's clearly paranoid, and expecting you. How do you want to approach his stronghold?"
Level 10: "The local orc chief sends a generous tribute so that you will hopefully leave him alone this season while you're making plans to take on the dragon. He may be a useful font of information though..."
Level 15: "Your generals report that they have captured another orc chieftain with ambitions for making himself king. Do you want to have him tortured?"
Level 20: "Golarion: a fantastic world, known to be home to many races, including humans, elves, giants and orcs. Do you want to land your ship there?"
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Apex predators do often defend their territory against other would-be apex predators. So if there's a bear in the forest, he probably keeps out other bears.
It's possible though, to also have uber-apex predators. The dragon doesn't really care about the bears in its vast territory, and he doesn't eat enough of them to de-bear the place.
In general I like the concept of assigning areas a Typical CR as well as an Apex CR. Typical CR for a forest could be fairly low - the hostile fae, goblins and wild animals you might run into. Apex CR is the biggest, meanest critter out there. This could be:
CR1 - Mischievous Fae
CR1 - Poisonous snake
CR2 - Garden Ooze
CR2 - Hostile plant
CR2 - Wolfpack
CR3 - Bear
CR3 - Evil Fae
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CR8 - Dragon with actual name
This isn't really going to change just because the PCs gained a level. If they ask around in the neighbourhood, the villagers will know the forest is generally not too deadly, but you must avoid the dragon. The Apex threat is generally known to the locals, and they also have some idea about the more typical monsters you might run into.
If the PCs spend some time in the forest they might kill most of the fae and bears, and the dragon; this definitely changes things. Likewise, in your Living World the dragon might leave, and then a hag moves into the Apex spot. Or a bigger dragon captures the lair. So Typical and Apex CR aren't carved in stone, but they change for in-game reasons, not "because PC level".
So won't the PCs outgrow this? Yes, they will. So the rewards from encounters will become unimpressive, and it may be time to move on. Aragorn probably considers The Shire a bit boring, not really the sort of place to level up. At the end of LOTR, the hobbits realize they're now pretty big fish too.
That's the other option: enjoy being a big fish in a little pond. If you thoroughly dominate your region and don't want to leave, maybe it's time to grab the Kingmaker rules...
I prefer the chance of wandering into something way beyond my abilities and having to beg for mercy. I dont think it's about verisimilitude, realism, immersion or anything related - I think no matter which way you go, you're going to run afoul of those kinds of considerations.
I feel it's important the DM allow you to run away/grovel successfully when you get out of your league. If the DM is stuck in a mindset of "Well, they'd pursue you and/or make you leave all your wealth here - anything else would be out of character" rather than trying to come up with decent motivations for why they didnt (this time) then it might get tiresome. Meeting CR-appropriate challenges all the time is equally tiresome to me though.
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1) Make sure there's more than one zone that they can do right from the start. If there's only one CR <3 zone it's a bad start...
2) Use the NPC population. In the real world people talk to each other about not going into the scary forest. Then they tell stories about why the forest is so scary. Players can use those stories to figure out where to go. PCs have access to vast information just by buying the locals a drink in the tavern, and letting them feel important by listening to their stories.
I prefer the chance of wandering into something way beyond my abilities and having to beg for mercy. I dont think it's about verisimilitude, realism, immersion or anything related - I think no matter which way you go, you're going to run afoul of those kinds of considerations.
I feel it's important the DM allow you to run away/grovel successfully when you get out of your league. If the DM is stuck in a mindset of "Well, they'd pursue you and/or make you leave all your wealth here - anything else would be out of character" rather than trying to come up with decent motivations for why they didnt (this time) then it might get tiresome. Meeting CR-appropriate challenges all the time is equally tiresome to me though.
I agree.
Now what about building an adventure? How do you structure the CR- challenges without having the video-game mentality of levels and big-boss battles? How do you prepare 5 adventure zones when you don't know which the players will take on first?
I think the restriction of information/incentive is one part of the key - at least the key to running games that I enjoy. :)
I dont feel the same sense of constraint if I'm able to walk into the tougher dragon valley but choose not to since the townsfolk are begging me to tame the goblin infested forest.The other element I think is great (and often missing from more modern games, in my experience) is lots of possible paths to the "Boss monsters". I dont think the concept of a super-powerful, super-memorable foe is inherently problematic. It only bothers me when the adventure is clearly structures so that you have to meet almost all the other enemies first in a gradually increasing curve of difficulty. Just because of the logic of such places, even in an open-ended dungeon or adventure, it's quite likely that you'll fight your way through a few minions and henchmen first anyway. It's the sense of compulsion which I'd like to avoid.
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I gotta say, i've never understood the eco system argument.
If creatures in one area are faster stronger and more versatile than another, why don't the predators go for the prey in that area?
Conversely, why don't the herbivores move into that area since their predators don't exist in that setting.
I.e. in a naturally evolving biosphere, why would creatures not adapt to new environments to move away from the things most dangerous or to the area where the easiest food is?
What prevents it in real life? Climate. Geology. Biology. And so on. Sometimes they do move, and sometimes they don't unless some event triggers it.
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I gotta say, i've never understood the eco system argument.
If creatures in one area are faster stronger and more versatile than another, why don't the predators go for the prey in that area?
Conversely, why don't the herbivores move into that area since their predators don't exist in that setting.
I.e. in a naturally evolving biosphere, why would creatures not adapt to new environments to move away from the things most dangerous or to the area where the easiest food is?
There's no single answer here for all possible worlds, but there are lots of local answers.
Consider a forest next to a swamp. Why don't the bears from the forest move into the swamp which happens to be devoid of predators? Because they're too heavy to prosper there; they'd burn down, fall over and then sink into the swamp.
Why don't the bears move into the mountains? There's a drake there (with CR considerably higher, and maybe Flyby Attack and a breath weapon - way beyond what a bear can cope with) who will hunt big animals like bears because he considers big creatures to be challengers, but mostly ignores the smaller wolves. And the mountain kobolds pay him tribute.
So why doesn't the drake expand his territory into the forest? He's already got a good thing going in the mountains, and his territory is basically as big as he can fly across and patrol. Anything beyond a certain radius from his lair is just too far away to control really.
So the local villages know all about Boring Swamp, Bear Wood and Drake Mountain. These regions are adjacent and yet have different CR distributions. The PCs can evaluate their options; the safe swamp, the moderately risky forest and the mountain where a drake will attack challengers.
Maybe they decide that right now the swamp is just not interesting, the forest sounds doable, but they'll wait a few levels before tangling with the drake. Alternatively, they go into the mountains really carefully, trying to avoid the drake's attention but making a quick strike against the kobolds that have been raiding the village.
I rather enjoy the "enemy territory" adventures. They also make everyone careful; casters are afraid they'll run into more enemies the same day so they try not to nova unduly.
What prevents it in real life? Climate. Geology. Biology. And so on. Sometimes they do move, and sometimes they don't unless some event triggers it.I gotta say, i've never understood the eco system argument.
If creatures in one area are faster stronger and more versatile than another, why don't the predators go for the prey in that area?
Conversely, why don't the herbivores move into that area since their predators don't exist in that setting.
I.e. in a naturally evolving biosphere, why would creatures not adapt to new environments to move away from the things most dangerous or to the area where the easiest food is?
The other thing I tend to point out here is that (unless it's a naturally migratory species) if they should have moved elsewhere, they probably already have ;) So if they haven't, there's probably a good reason why they haven't (which may well be a clue to something else being there that isn't immediately obvious.)
I either try to ensure the ecosystem is already balanced and stable, or I make it up completely off the top of my head as I go, and then make up reasons why it's that way if anyone questions it :)
I'm also very much a fan of "civilized" areas being where the low-CR stuff is, and it getting worse the further away you get. So that L1 party is likely going to run into trouble just trying to move between villages on the main road, able to venture off the beaten track around L5, and around L10 looking at venturing out beyond the borders of known kingdoms.
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World Building:
I unconsciously sort things by elevation and that seems to work out for my players.
mountains - medium CR
sea level - low CR
below ground - medium CR
under the sea - medium CR
deep underground - high CR
sea trenches - high CR
Anything that's higher CR than the rest of its area will usually get some forewarning. Local villages have a pretty good idea what the apex predators of nearby areas are, so it's never been a surprise.
If I'm planning a sandbox, I also sprinkle in some mid- to high-level NPCs throughout, to become the PCs' allies or enemies as they advance in level. It gives a real sense of accomplishment to catch up with people you knew could wipe the floor with you earlier.
Keeping skill DCs appropriate can be challenging. The real trick, for a sandbox, is not even paying attention to your player's skill ranks. Just set the DCs as appropriate and see what happens.
Random Encounters:
I think a lot of the problems people have with this is actually how they handle random encounters. The usual advice there is not to have the encounters always end in combat or even just describe the PCs destroying the under-leveled opposition.
But I think there's a more important step missing. Random encounter rolls abstractly represent more than just stumbling into a group of enemies, there's an implied game of cat and mouse there. Enemies and predators are trying to find your tracks and track you while you're trying to obscure them and slip by unnoticed.
So, assuming your party is decent at that game, there's no reason that most low-CR creatures should even find you to have an encounter.
Full Idea: Build a table with twenty slots, filling most or all of them with monsters. Spread them out into a believable ecosystem if you want or just cram in the usual suspects.
Note the DC to avoid each of them. DC 10 + their perception or survival modifier is usually a fine starting point, but tweak it until it feels right for the circumstances. Definitely increase the DC for enemies encountered in groups (more eyes) and for modifiers like scent.
Roll on the table as often as you normally would, but the results are only the encounters they pass near. If the party can beat the DC, they don't even have the encounter.
A lot of skills might apply. Survival is the big one. Appropriate Knowledge skills for the area (nature, dungeoneering, local, the planes, whatever) or even Professions (sailor springs to mind) can also be called in. Stealth can work if you're alone and I'm sure your players can come up with more.
Your players can take 10 or roll, whatever works for your group.
Increase the DC by your group's size, including mounts and companions. Decrease it by 5 if they're moving at half-speed, increase it by 10 if they're hustling.
Whenever they fail to beat the DC, they have the encounter. Optionally, if they fail by a lot, let the enemies set up an ambush.
If you use this extensively, it's best to provide story award XP for getting across sections of dangerous wilderness rather than XP for the individual encounters.
Cheers!
Landon
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There's several "flavors" of random encounters available;
1) The totally random kind, from some sort of table. There's both a random chance to encounter anything at all, and if an encounter happens, randomly roll what it is you encounter.
2) Preset encounters not related to the current plot ("random" because they don't have a plot function)
Note that #1 is strictly a way to implement #2, but not the only way to implement #2. Another way is to make up a list of monsters common to the area and just pick one if you as a GM decide now is a good time for an encounter. Having such lists can help make regions feel distinct; Orc Valley is different from Drake Valley and the players can gain this information. It can help them make decisions.
Unlike more linear adventures, a sandbox may actually profit from something approaching #1. At least try to make the players believe there's some random element to the encounters; it's "not just happennening because you feel like it", the gods of fate made it happen. If they're in poor shape you're not taking pity and scrapping an encounter, that's up to the dice gods.
Whether this is really true doesn't matter so much as that your players believe it. You should probably not explain the arcane dice roll system you use to make these determinations; that way it's easier to fudge.
They'll be posting guards while they rest and all that, so make them wonder who'll be on guard if/when an encounter happens; let them worry about the right schedule.
It's probably better to actually pick what encounter happens instead of rolling for that (but don't tell the players); that way you can make sure that players will actually get to see the coolest monster in the area instead of just another encounter that looks like the previous encounter.
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Your encounters and regional monster tables tell a story too. If there are a lot of orc encounters, why is that? Is there an orc lair nearby perhaps? If there are also duergar encounters, is it a war zone? If this region has encounters with fantastical monsters, is the region famous? If not, how come?
The encounter tables aren't necessarily all things that want/must fight the PCs. They could also be merchants, pilgrims, crazy hermits, unusual animals, trees blocking the path, and other random little things. They're basically lists of things that break the monotony of overland travel and add color to a region.
I like to have at least one "action" scene per session, so I'd contrive to create at least one encounter that could result in combat. It may be useful to color the list: green for nice people, yellow for people that can be convinced not to be hostile, and red for things that will attack you regardless.
I'd place most of the really scary things that the PCs can't yet cope with in the yellow category; they can be bought off, hidden from, outrun, seen coming from afar etc.