Can hat of disguise / disguise self create clothing out of nothing?

[Senko]

I'm looking at a way to let a cat familiar assume human form (not much luck so far but a few possabilities). Anyway I thought I could just make a collar of disguise variant of the hat of disguise (with appropriately changed restriction so the collar can be a necklace, choker, etc). It just occured to me however that unlike the normal recipient of the effects the cat would be naked prior to using it unless she found some clothes somewhere.

So could a hat (collar) of disguise create an outfit out of nothing for you to wear if your naked or do I need to look at someway of providing clothes as well?

[avr]

An illusion of clothing yes, IMO. The collar is clothing and you make it appear different. Though note the limits of disguise self - you appear as a creature of the same type. Back in previous editions that meaning was a bit vague, but in PF it means an animal or magical beast for a cat familiar.

[OmniMage]

If its a custom magic item built for a given task, then why not? I think 1st level illusions are strong enough to make clothing. However, it wouldn't pass the touch test. Expect the familiar to have trouble with hand shakes.

Quote:

You make yourself—including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment—look different.

Its a bit fuzzy, but I think it includes making clothing when none exist before the spell is used. If not, it should have been mentioned.

If you continue to have doubt, talk to your GM.

[Senko]

avr wrote:

An illusion of clothing yes, IMO. The collar is clothing and you make it appear different. Though note the limits of disguise self - you appear as a creature of the same type. Back in previous editions that meaning was a bit vague, but in PF it means an animal or magical beast for a cat familiar.

Ahem yes I keep messing that up, hence why I just came back (too late) to edit my post. I keep forgetting the hat of disguise actually comes in TWO variants and the greater one uses alter self which can turn you into a small or medium humanoid. So that one will conveniently cover the cat to human issue as well not just the clothing one I had in mind. I may want to throw the belt of strength equivalent to get her to normal human strength with the collar as well.

OmniMage wrote:

If its a custom magic item built for a given task, then why not? I think 1st level illusions are strong enough to make clothing. However, it wouldn't pass the touch test. Expect the familiar to have trouble with hand shakes.

Quote:

You make yourself—including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment—look different.

Its a bit fuzzy, but I think it includes making clothing when none exist before the spell is used. If not, it should have been mentioned.

If you continue to have doubt, talk to your GM.

Again need to use the greater but handshakes would only be confusing in an initial "I prefer paws" sense. I think your right on GM if there's no FAQ/ruling floating around I'm unfamiliar with. Either way if it did create clothing they'd need to have some limits so you can't use it to keep producing royal outfits and selling them or a similar ploy.

[Azothath]

A feline change should give you paws(pause)... 8^)

[Azothath]

Usually effects are goverened by the spell used to craft the item. So read the item description AND requirements.
Illusions tend to trick the senses but not provide anything substantial while phantasms have some matter to them.

[gnoams]

The normal hat of disguise can create clothing, as it acts as disguise self, creating an illusionary appearance that replaces your normal appearance. It however, would only let your cat appear like a different magical beast.

A greater hat of disguise acts as alter self, which is not an illusion, but a transmutation (polymorph) effect changing you into a humanoid. If we look at the universal rules for polymorph, since you are changing into a humanoid, your gear does not meld into your body, so you will still be wearing your collar (which resizes to fit). However, it does say GM discretion if your form is unlike your original form then your gear might meld into your body. Definitely applies here, so it's up to your GM if your gear melds with you or not. Either way you will be naked, alter self is not an illusion and does not create clothing.

Note that both hats only give the wearer a +10 to disguise checks, so you'll still need to be decent at disguise in order for others not to see through it.

[Senko]

I'm not too concerned about the disguise part since she's only aiming for "Greetings fellow human" not "I am the royal steward let me through guard or I'll demote you to cesspit cleaner". Worst case if she feels is that they'll think she's a weird human. Though do need to check if collar would meld into body and still be useable. Otherwise she'll either wind up stuck as a human or instantly turning back into a cat as it stops working.

So naked ok I need to find something that will let clothes be available maybe adapt a glove of storing so that one outfit can be used. Transform, clothes on, clothes off, transform. A way to reshape the collar to other neck items may also be needed if the hat greater doesn't do that.

[gnoams]

Sleeves of many garments could be an option.

[Senko]

Probably not they change existing garments again. I need something that either stores clothes or creates them since she wouldn't be wearing them as a cat.

[Azothath]

Advice: I'd go about this another way. Just get regular adventuring clothes and dress in that as a humanoid, then change into your cat form and dress up. You now have REAL clothes/armor in either form and can add to that (via hat or sleeve magic items). When the spell goes down (if you are using that) you'll have to collect your stuff and setup again later. It bypasses a lot of issues for some prep and magic. A simple polymorph lets you pack old stuff into(under) a new form.

[Firebug]

To get around the Disguise Self not allowing you to pretend to be a Humanoid (since you are a magical beast), you could base a similar item off Anthropomorphic Animal instead. But that is between 15k-30k depending on how you base the item. (ie, based off of hat of disguise/greater or based off the default continuous item rules).

Looking at the item creation rules, the Greater Hat of Disguise is actually fairly under budgeted. It should be 24k not 12k using the Continuous Item rules. The regular Hat should also be 3k.

[Senko]

Azothath wrote:

Advice: I'd go about this another way. Just get regular adventuring clothes and dress in that as a humanoid, then change into your cat form and dress up. You now have REAL clothes/armor in either form and can add to that (via hat or sleeve magic items). When the spell goes down (if you are using that) you'll have to collect your stuff and setup again later. It bypasses a lot of issues for some prep and magic. A simple polymorph lets you pack old stuff into(under) a new form.

Would that even work? Bear in mind this is a cat familiar turning human not a human turning into a cat.

Firebug wrote:

To get around the Disguise Self not allowing you to pretend to be a Humanoid (since you are a magical beast), you could base a similar item off Anthropomorphic Animal instead. But that is between 15k-30k depending on how you base the item. (ie, based off of hat of disguise/greater or based off the default continuous item rules).

Looking at the item creation rules, the Greater Hat of Disguise is actually fairly under budgeted. It should be 24k not 12k using the Continuous Item rules. The regular Hat should also be 3k.

I've been getting the feeling playing around with magic item creation that a lot of items are actually cheaper than they would be if made with the item creation rules not just the hats. Hat of disguise greater does meet most of my needs the only issue is talking. I can't seem to find an answer of whether an animal that can't speak turned into a creature that can will be able to speak/read languages.

[Firebug]

Alter Self/Polymorph no longer changes your type, so if you didn't have language before you don't get it after.

However, a familiar knows all the languages its master knows... at least through the linguistics skill since they share skill points.

[Senko]

Firebug wrote:

Alter Self/Polymorph no longer changes your type, so if you didn't have language before you don't get it after.

However, a familiar knows all the languages its master knows... at least through the linguistics skill since they share skill points.

Wait where does it say they don't alter your type since the spell description I've got specifically say's humanoid and polymorph specifically say's you can be other types?

I've seen debates on familiars knowing other languages.

[Firebug]

Alter Self wrote:

When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the humanoid type.

Polymorph Spells wrote:

A polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor.

There is more, but basically, it never says you actually change your type, you only get the stuff that is listed in the spell (+polymorph rules, like natural attacks, movement speed, etc).

[Senko]

I don't see it that way it does explicitly say you don't become a full member of species X and that you assume the form an animal, humanoid, etc. It doesn't as far as I can see clarify if you change type one way or another. A cat is very different to a rat or a horse but they are all animal type. However it does repeatedly reference type and say's when you assume the form a type you meld gear into your body. Now if you cast dragon form gold draogn your not going to be as powerful as a gold dragon but your type will still be draconic.

EDIT
It appears on hunting online you are indeed correct and even supported by explicit statements from game designers. That is very dissapointing.

[ErichAD]

The first world caller wizard archetype gives your familiar the fey-touched template, which includes one humanoid alternate form. If you have "ties to the fey" you can make your familiar fey-touched at 3rd level with improved familiar. I can't imagine you're too far away from having ties to the fey if you want a cat that turns into a human.

There's also the "Changeling Familiar" feat which grants one alter self form to your familiar, though it requires your familiar have the change shape ability already. I think that sticks you with a Pooka if you want something that could be a cat and a human; but who doesn't like bunny girls with drunk dust? The main problem is it comes up really late in the game.

[Azothath]

Senko wrote:

Azothath wrote:

Advice: I'd go about this another way...

Would that even work? Bear in mind this is a cat familiar turning human not a human turning into a cat.

yes. I left it open as I'm not sure how your cat familiar is changing (I'm assuming through Share Spells & Alter Self or non-familiar & kitsune styled sillyness). So don cat armor... do casting, don human attire/armor. Travel about. The cat armor is subsumed by the polymorph as a medium biped humanoid cannot wear/use tiny/small quadruped cat armor. When the spell ends - *fwump* the human sized stuff drops and there's a cat in armor. Likely there will be penalties for wearing armor not trained in. If the familiar is only in clothes and not attacking (non-proficiency penalties with weapons) shouldn't be to big a deal. You can always have the humanoid cat dress up in a cat costume where 'meowing' is in character.

Polymorph Any Object (high level shenanigans) opens more conundrums but it's likely that you'd lose your familiar.
Merge with Familiar might be more useful and it's certainly longer duration.

There is a way to chat via a certain ring, however, does the cat have the magic item slot? I'd check the blog post and the eloquence of FAQs.

Funnelling your familiar into a certain archetype/specialty is bound to lead to a character rebuild later on or getting a new familiar. As level raises your familiar becomes more of a liability.

[Senko]

Yes cats have slots neck at least for collars, custom collar version of hat of disguise is how they're changing.

I'm considering figment/sage archetypes so no improved familiar.

[Azothath]

Improved Familiars are definitely worth it.
For cats there's the Silvanshee which is actually decent and can heal (a saving grace when you're in trouble). Add a headband/collar/cloak/implanted ioun stone of Charisma to your Silvanshee who assists his master the Diviner (who has a touch of Insight) and he's a buffed dodger/saver for 10 min.
Interestingly, as Merge with Familiar is a transmutation, your small humanoid cat (one size smaller) can STILL merge into his medium sized humanoid master.
There are Catfolk(med humanoids).

[Senko]

Figments never truly die :)

Hmmm perhaps I can make a case to the GM that a dream figment could qualify for changeling familiar.

[ErichAD]

The inability to use improved familiar and archetypes together is why I like the First World Caller, the familiar gains a template rather than becoming an improved familiar.

[Senko]

True but I'd prefer to play an arcanist if possible. Like I said I think I may can make a reasonable case of changeling familiar on a figment familiar to the GM especially as its not really going to impact my characters power all that much just add roleplay opportunities.

[Joesi]

Note that the Greater hat of disguise is not made for Pathfinder game system but rather D&D 3.5, and is very powerful, almost certainly significantly underpriced.

Granted, in your specific use case it might not be especially powerful, so when confined to that usage it might be a fair price.

That being said, for your speaking obstacle, the Decoy familiar archetype will allow the familiar to speak all the languages of it's master all the time.

In addition, they can also be in humanoid form for half of the active day, but with the downside of it having a duty cycle of max ~11 minutes and requires level 11 character.

So to get something more powerful than a familiar's good/powerful level 11 ability early on, 6-12 kgp is a pretty good buy (if allowed)

Interestingly enough, to go more back on topic with clothes, alter self changes you physically, meaning you would by RAW have the issue of clothing being worn when going this route. Disguise self wouldn't have that issue. Granted, I think alter self in the Decoy's case would be meant to match clothing as well I'd say (RAI), but that's probably more debatable for the Greater Hat of Disguise.

[Senko]

This is what handy haversacks are for so I can carry my familiars clothing. Anyway as long as I know I can work around it.

Sadly I want my familiar to be a figment (amusing roleplay oportunities) which rules out pretty much everything except sage as an additional archetype.

[Quixote]

I'm not sure I understand. What benefit are you trying to get from your familiar taking on human form?

You're willing to spend close to 30,000gp for it all in all, so it seems like it's a significant part of the character. But then, you haven't once mentioned any crazy combos or whatever, so that leads me to believe you're look for mostly flavor.

Ask your GM how potent they think *this specific effect* is; not "the ability to change a Tiny creature into a Medium one" or "making a Str3 creature Str 10", just "I want my familiar to be able to assume human form".

Honestly, what does this item actually do? Not mechanically, nor technically, but actually? It...allows your familiar to be a more effective scout and spy, in some instances (and makes them worse in others). Anything else of significance?
Because for what amounts to a significant conditional bonus to one or two skills, I'd charge...I dunno. Between 2,250 and 5,000gp. It's not that great. It's not that useful. It's a cool idea. That's what it is. Why would I charge you an arm and a leg for a cool idea?

Or, hey, we could make up our own template. Swap out this or that for Alternate Form or something. Again: not that great. Unless you've got some insane technicalities planned.

[Senko]

Quixote wrote:

I'm not sure I understand. What benefit are you trying to get from your familiar taking on human form?

You're willing to spend close to 30,000gp for it all in all, so it seems like it's a significant part of the character. But then, you haven't once mentioned any crazy combos or whatever, so that leads me to believe you're look for mostly flavor.

Ask your GM how potent they think *this specific effect* is; not "the ability to change a Tiny creature into a Medium one" or "making a Str3 creature Str 10", just "I want my familiar to be able to assume human form".

Honestly, what does this item actually do? Not mechanically, nor technically, but actually? It...allows your familiar to be a more effective scout and spy, in some instances (and makes them worse in others). Anything else of significance?
Because for what amounts to a significant conditional bonus to one or two skills, I'd charge...I dunno. Between 2,250 and 5,000gp. It's not that great. It's not that useful. It's a cool idea. That's what it is. Why would I charge you an arm and a leg for a cool idea?

Or, hey, we could make up our own template. Swap out this or that for Alternate Form or something. Again: not that great. Unless you've got some insane technicalities planned.

Roleplaying flavour nothing more. I'm actually currently looking at taking shapeless familiar then changeling familiar to let them take on human form.

[Quixote]

Senko wrote:

Roleplaying flavour nothing more. I'm actually currently looking at taking shapeless familiar then changeling familiar to let them take on human form.

Then yeah, no need to wrack the brain or break the bank. 1,000gp seems more than fair.

What is the flavor, exactly? It feels very eerie in that faerie sort of way at first glance, but now I'm curious.

[Senko]

It was inspired by the Eldritch Font Acranist Archeytpe https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/arcanist/archetypes/paizo-a rcanist-archetypes/eldritch-font/ and the flavour bit

"For some arcanists, the power bubbling up from within is nearly too much to contain. They become adept at shaping this magical energy without needing to bind it up in spells."

This is a caster who is (a) insanely powerful (as in the main female lead from black jewels series*) and (b) extremely lonely so they used their power to make a friend (figment archetype) that is constructed solely from their magic and acts as a siphon/circuit breaker to help moderate their power. Its not just a projection of their mind its a complete seperate personality with their own interests, skills and memories (sage archetype). Much to the confusion of her teacher as to how an imaginary construct can know things the person imagining it doesn't. With the feats I'm happy spend several for a growing infusion of power scenario where they start off as a cat, learn to become an arctic tern and then a full human. If I could get a GM who'd allow it I'd take leadership and make them the cohort so they even gain levels of their own. Yes it'd weaken my character but that fits into the whole she's infusing power to make her imaginary companion who's always been there for her more real.

I kind of wish I could do this in a mythic game with the house rule someone suggested of mythic beings counting as artficat level for the effect of things like anti-magic field. Take mythic familiar and you've got a magical construct of the mages mind that has their own personality, own skills, own memories and can walk around in an antimagic field just fine. The sheer "Things don't work this way!" effect on NPC's would more than offset the investment for me.

Even without that I can get a nice result with blood arcanist (to get a familiar), figment (mental construct), shapeless and changeling familiar (teenage form of mage). Its just got a few flaws like dissapearing when she sleeps and being limited to 100 foot. Well I would prefer the familiar be able to be human from the start but shapeless requires level 7 and changeling lvl 9 to take them.

*
The main female lead is . . . she's conservatively estimated at one point to be around 6 times the combined power level of two of the male characters (her father in law and husband). They are individually the most powerful magic users in the realm besides her and of roughly equal strength meaning she's around 12 times stronger than either one alone as a conservative estimate.

To give an idea of their power the father in law had a son of his murdered when they were a baby and his response was to wipe out the civilization responsable. Every single man, woman and child, every book, musical instrument or other object that civilization had produced and the phsyical country itself just wiped out of existence.

Her feats include as a teenager when a group tries to take her away from her father in law is to tell them she'll go with them when the sun rises tommorow then proceeds to prevent the sun rising for everyone except the animals (she didn't want to confuse them) until they back down 3 days later or when she finally gets pushed into going to war against the main series enemy her problem was how to only kill them. As in if she unleashed her full power she'd kill everyone else in the overlap of her attack. Think sending a massive tsunami and earthquake into a major city as a side effect of trying to hit one person on the beach only in her case its blowing up everyone in 3 seperate dimensions as a side effect of attacking with her full power.