| VoodistMonk |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Slings, crossbows, shortbows... keeps them out of harm's way. Reach weapons, as well.
Natural attacks, TWF high crit weapons, teamwork/dirty tricks for melee.
They do have a relatively decent racial Fighter archetype (that stacks with Dawnflower Dervish for added movement stuffs), that can be made quite effective with the addition of 5 levels of UnRogue (Vexing Dodger).
Example:
Kobold
... Day Raider
... Shoulder to Shoulder
FCB:
Fighter Add +1/2 to damage rolls the fighter makes with weapon attacks against an opponent he is flanking or an opponent that is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC.
Swarm Fighter
1. Athletic Prowess
1(class): Mobility
1(level): Combat Reflexes
2. Safety in Numbers
2(class): Precise Strike
Vexing Dodger UnRogue
3. Finesse Training
3. Sneak Attack 1D6
3. Limb Climber
3(class): Weapon Finesse
3(level): TWF
4. Evasion
4(class): Improved Dirty Trick
5. Finesse Training
5. Sneak Attack 2D6
5. Underfoot Agility +1
5(level): Double Slice
6. Debilitating Injury
6. Rogue Talent
... Weapon Training (Weapon Focus Kukri)
6. Underfoot Trickster
7. Rogue's Edge
... Climb
7. Sneak Attack 3D6
7(level): Iron Will
Swarm Fighter
8. Burst of Speed
9(class): Imp. TWF
9(level): Dirty Fighting
10. Share Space
11(class): Distracting Charge
11(level): Quick Dirty Trick
12. Desert Stride
13(class): Greater Weapon Focus Kukri
13(level): Two-Weapon Rend
14. Strike the Underbelly
15(class): Coordinated Charge
15(level): Greater Dirty Trick
16. Rapid Attack
17(class): Dirty Trick Master
17(level):
18. Always Underfoot
18(class): Step Up
19(class): teamwork feat
19(level):
20. Lightning Strike
At 20:
BAB +18
Base saves +10/+9/+8 (w/ Iron Will)
FCB +7 DMG against an opponent he is flanking or an opponent that is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC.
Athletic Prowess +7 Arcobatics & Climb
Underfoot Agility +1 Acrobatics & Climb
Malik Gyan Daumantas
|
Slings, crossbows, shortbows... keeps them out of harm's way. Reach weapons, as well.
Natural attacks, TWF high crit weapons, teamwork/dirty tricks for melee.
They do have a relatively decent racial Fighter archetype, that can be made quite effective with the addition of 5 levels of UnRogue (Vexing Dodger).
I'm specifically thinking more of a tribal thing but im guessing they all could be coopted for that purpose.
| Mark Hoover 330 |
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Standard kobold is a high Dex, low Str humanoid. I don't understand why they'd be given a Ranged option that depends on Str for damage. With their proclivity for mechanical traps I'd imagine crossbows would be a favorite.
Kobolds may organize in tribes, but several AP encounters with them depict expensive mechanical traps. This seems to suggest to me that kobolds don't languish in squalor; they have resources enough from their mines to create alchemical weapons to add into their mechanical traps. I feel that the only reason the standard kobold in the Bestiary is depicted the way it is b/c it needs to be CR 1/4.
Ranged attacks that don't depend on Str for damage, so bows and crossbows. Weapons commonly found in traps such as crossbows, nets, and spears. Reach weapons that keep foes at bay and play into a kobold's natural tankiness.
Oh yeah, they're natural tanks. As a CR 1/4 monster kobolds have only 5 HP (Warrior 1 gets 1d10 HP) but they have a 15 AC in leather armor. If the average monster of CR 1/2 is supposed to have an 11 AC, kobolds are tanks.
Finally, look to weapons that can be weapons as well as tools. Picks, daggers, hammers, and long hafted weapons. Why polearms or long hafted weapons? These can be used as levers or poles to trigger traps from Reach, loosen boulders or otherwise multiply the kobolds' naturally low Str.
I actually don't think that the standard kobold would spend too much of their time perfecting a weapon that depends on a feat to maximize. By this I mean Trip or Disarm weapons, Improvised weapons or Exotic weapons other than tail blades and nets. The standard kobold already has a lot of skill bonuses, meaning they probably spend a lot of their time leading up to level 1 in whatever NPC or PC class they take practicing these racial skills and probably don't have the time or training to work on unique fighting techniques.
As kobolds level though or if you're making an elite NPC, look to weapons that take advantage of such feats, but again bearing in mind the kobolds' natural strengths in the areas of high Dex combat and tankiness.
| Scott Wilhelm |
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So, there are a lot of ways I can look at this question.
What weapons would a kobold realistically use?
Well, none. Kobolds aren't real. They are fantasy monster people. They aren't real, so their weapons aren't real.
I felt like that needed to be addressed.
So, from a game mechanics perspective,
Kobolds are people with arms, legs, hands, feet, and tails. They can use people weapons.
They are Size Small. Their base Damage is low, so when character building, I would focus on build features that are not size dependent: Dex-based fighters (possibly, but not necessarily Fighters) with Dex-to-Damage, Attacks of Opportunity, and I like Sneak Attack Damage. Weapon Specialization is not Size Dependent, neither is Power Attack, Freebooter's Bane, Inquisitor Judgements, Slayer Studied Target, Alchemal Bombs.
They are frail compared with other Size Small creatures, with extra low strength and Con, so I don't expect to see many Composite Bows. I'd expect a lot of Crossbows, But they have a 30' Base Speed. I'd expect to see a lot of Kobolds with Crossbow Mastery wielding Heavy and Crank Crossbows slithering around the battlefield like lizards shooting poisoned Heavy Crossbow bolts.
I'd expect some Reach Weapons.
I'd expect some gishy tactics: most magical bonuses don't scale down with size. And obvious one would be shadow-rogue talents to create Darkness they themselves can see through but Blinds surface invaders, allowing them to Sneak Attack normally.
Their racial traits suggests they are tricksy people, so I'd expect to see some tricksy weapons: nets, bolas, aklyses, and stuff.
Kobolds have Natural Attacks available to them via Feats and Racial Traits. So, a Natural Attack Build is something to consider. My instinct is Quick, Greater dirty tricks to Blind and/or Deafen opponents with 1f Natural Attack with Sneak Attack Damage with all the rest. I'm thinking you (at least) dip into Alchemist to take Feral Mutagen and get 2 Claw Attacks, dip into White Haired Witch to get a Hair Attack and get an Animal Mask or Helm of the Mammoth Lord to get a Gore Attack. So, that's a lot of Attacks; most of them do Sneak Attack Damage, so that's a lot of high-damage Attacks, and I can think of ways of getting more.
Culturally
Well, not real people: fantasy monster people, so their culture is whatever the GM and possibly the character's player fantasizes about. In Golorion they seem to live underground. It longer to dig your home than to build it out of sticks and grass or even stone, so They must be heavily invested in defending homes they have. Living underground, they probably don't have many mounted warriors. I'd expect a relatively small number of heavy infantry, but not none because almost all kinds of people have some need to hold a position or hold opponents in place.
I could see a kobold army with no melee tactics that concedes any battlefield position and just skirmishes opponents with superior range and mobility until their opponents are washed away in a rainstorm of crossbow bolts.
I think any seasoned commander who sees a Phalanx of obviously inferior Kolbold heavy infantry should warn his soldiers and superiors for gods' sake do NOT charge them: it just has to be a trap.
Dragonborn3
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Ranged attacks that don't depend on Str for damage, so bows and crossbows.
This bit isn't entirely true. Bows do depend on Strength, just not the usual way.
If your Strength bonus is less than the strength rating of the composite bow, you can’t effectively use it, so you take a –2 penalty on attacks with it.
If you have a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when you use a longbow.
Bows are terrible for most kobolds.
| Mark Hoover 330 |
I'd still like to know - is this a standard CR 1/4 kobold, a higher level standard kobold, a kobold with an NPC build and stats, or a PC kobold? This might also affect what weapons they wield.
Standard kobold 1/4 has a BAB +1, Dex +1 and Size +1 to hit, so attacking with a net (Exotic weapon, targets victim's Touch AC) is worth the -1 to hit non-proficiency. That same kobold however, switching to Adept instead of Warrior, is now at a -2 hit with the same net and likely has a spell option that might be more effective.
Also, why do folks want to give kobolds natural weapons? Outside a Bite attack they have to spend feats to get them, more feats to make them worthwhile and unless you go Warpriest they'll always be stuck at Small sized base damage. This is coupled with the fact that now you've got a potentially low-HP attacker in melee with their weak-damage, non-reach natural weapons.
One tactic I like to take with swarming kobolds, outside the Dirty Trick line of feats, is Teamwork feats. If you can get 4 CR 1/4 kobolds around a single low level PC, with their accuracy and some Flanking you've got a possible 2 hits coming out of that. If suddenly the kobolds are each adding an extra 1d6 from a Teamwork feat on top of the 1d8 -2 Reach weapon damage, suddenly these wimpy kobolds don't seem like such a pushover.
lastly, don't overthink it - get a warband of say 6 kobolds. One or two have a net, the others are just using the Grapple attack and suffering any AoO's generated in the process. As they pile on and add their +2 Aid Another bonuses, one PC can be tied up kinda quick!
Set
|
Kobolds size and dex bonuses make them pretty good at throwing stuff, so acid flasks or alchemical fire or tanglefoot bags seem like decent alternatives, for the initial volley, followed by slings, crossbows, etc. If the kobolds are of a specific scale color that have a tiny bit of resistance to acid or fire, they might be even more prone to use those particular alchemicals, as their own would be less likely to be blowed up by splash damage.
Combining these ranged throwables with longspears, for reach, could help keep their front-liners out of splash effects, and also allow for tons of AoOs on someone attempting to close with one of the front-liners (as all other longspear users in 10' might get an AoO as the PC closes).
Caltrops could also be a handy way to slow down the enemy.
| Artofregicide |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So, there are a lot of ways I can look at this question.
The Thread Title wrote:What weapons would a kobold realistically use?Well, none. Kobolds aren't real. They are fantasy monster people. They aren't real, so their weapons aren't real.
I felt like that needed to be addressed.
This is both untrue and offensive. Kobolds are both real and scions of dragonkind.
Now, if you'll just stand a little to the left...
| VoodistMonk |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Artofregicide reminds me that the most realistic weapon I'd use if I was a kobold would be a dragon. Or at least drakes, wyverns or whatever other sort of dragonkin I could 'realistically' tame the way humans have 'tamed' elephants.
"Drakaris!"
Hmm, yes... like a Tatzlwyrm with four levels of Bandit/Kidnapper UnRogue to guard the entrance to their gold mine. He hides in the vines and ivy planted to hang in front of the opening. When he isn't guarding the entrance, he plays with the Kobold children (and the 6 Mites the Kobolds are raising as their own).
| Mark Hoover 330 |
I mean, yes; the best weapon a STANDARD kobold has is the ability to establish defenses around their lairs, namely traps. The average kobold in Bestiary 1 gets Craft: Trapmaking with a +2 Racial bonus and it is always a Class skill, so traps are easily the optimal weapons employed by kobolds.
One slight alteration is to trade Crafty for Beast Bond and use Handle Animal to train up a bunch of underground animals to serve as defenders. Also consider a kobold Adept 1 is even more fragile than the Warrior 1 counterpart but replacing their Natural Armor with the Frightener trait and giving them Spell Focus as a starting feat means that a kobold Adept 1 could be casting Cause Fear spells with a DC 12 Will save - tough for those level 1 melee types to beat.
Yes, there's lots of POTENTIAL weapons these little dragon-kin have in their toolboxes. A PC classed kobold Inquisitor built around that class's use of the Intimidate skill for example could get Frightener, so their fear spells are harder to resist, and also take Wyrmcrowned so that Intimidate gets a +2 Racial bonus. Imagine that, plus the character Trait Convincing Liar for another +1 to Intimidate on a Shatter Defenses build. You suddenly have a Small sized race that has almost completely eliminated the Size penalty to the skill.
This is why I want to know what build we're working with. There's LOTS of ways to optimize weapons on a kobold, or weaponize the other boons they get.
| Quixote |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Kobolds aren't real. They are fantasy monster people. They aren't real, so their weap
That's argumentum ad fireballum; we're talking about verisimilitude. The APPEARANCE of being real.
Dragons fly with wings, like birds and bats.Gravity in the vast majority of S&S worlds works basically like ours.
Skeletons are animated with magic, but still need to use their feet to walk and their hands to swing a sword.
Kobolds are scaly little lizard people. They're cowardly and devious and obviously have the APPEARANCE of a culture with traditions, etc.
the only correct answer is of course; scorpion tied to a string, tied to a stick
This, 100%. They fight dirty, and they don't rely on their physical might.
What sort of setting, environment or encounter are your planning, though? I've seen tribal kobolds in the mountains or on the plains that were just barely into the tool age. I've seen jungle kobolds that were the same, and others that were similar to the Aztecs, Mayans and Toltecs, with advanced mathematics and astrology. And I've seen them steampunk-esque, with net cannons and coal-burning machine guns.
In their most classic form, I'd say crossbows, longspears, pits and tiny monstrous centipedes.
| Scott Wilhelm |
Scott Wilhelm wrote:Kobolds aren't real. They are fantasy monster people. They aren't real, so their weapThat's argumentum ad fireballum; we're talking about verisimilitude. The APPEARANCE of being real.
My point is, what they are is a matter of artistic interpretation and game mechanics, not a matter of observation.
| yukongil |
No mention of blowguns yet? Light, silent, poisonable... they seem right up a Kobolds' alley. Or down a Kobolds' mineshaft.
can you use a blowgun without lips? Do kobolds have lips? Most reptiles don't, right?
great choice nonetheless (if the lips thing is a "thing" they just hook it up to a forge bellows!)
| Artofregicide |
Quixote wrote:My point is, what they are is a matter of artistic interpretation and game mechanics, not a matter of observation.Scott Wilhelm wrote:Kobolds aren't real. They are fantasy monster people. They aren't real, so their weapThat's argumentum ad fireballum; we're talking about verisimilitude. The APPEARANCE of being real.
Bless you for pointing this out. There was great confusion and dismay prior to your clarification, but thanks to your timely intercession I think we're good now!
Now, if you'll move just a little bit more to the left...
| Hugo Rune |
By the book, kobolds use slings and spears. They are also noted as trap makers and often portrayed as accomplished miners. So, as others have already mentioned, crossbows (as they have the mechanical aptitude) and picks (for mining) should be commonplace. I also agree with the notion of longspears to help avoid close melee but can also see these being a burden in narrow, twisty tunnels. Other than that, nets, whips and anything else that limits opponents movement, particularly bolas would be used. Caltrops, oil and other equipment that can be used to block movement is also likely to be carried.
| VoodistMonk |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I believe longspears can rule the day in narrow, twisty tunnels... especially narrow, twisty tunnels of one's own design.
What if there were, say, little holes in the ceiling/floor/walls one may stick said Longspear through to jab at foes in neighboring passageways?
What if there were larger passageways specifically cut to lure larger prey along a certain path, whilst a network of neighboring Kobold sized tunnels fascilitates Kobold transit?
I do believe our little Kobold friends would make great use out of Longspears. As previously mentioned, the utility aspect of using a Longspear as a tool for leverage also gives Kobolds a reason to have them around.
A Longspear could be used as a balance pole for crossing a rope bridge over a deep chasm within their mines... little acrobatic lizard person scampers right across, then turns around and hides to stab/trip the Human in heavy armor as they try cross. Maybe the bridge is 25' across with an overhead blockage, making jumping difficult, at best. If all else fails, the Kobold can cut the rope, but he has faith in his trusty Longspear...
For a the Challenge Rating, I mean possible reward, it is not worth risking death at the bottom of a pit... the Human turns around and leaves. The inner nest is safe, and the tribe lives another day.
| Hugo Rune |
I believe longspears can rule the day in narrow, twisty tunnels... especially narrow, twisty tunnels of one's own design.
What if there were, say, little holes in the ceiling/floor/walls one may stick said Longspear through to jab at foes in neighboring passageways?
What if there were larger passageways specifically cut to lure larger prey along a certain path, whilst a network of neighboring Kobold sized tunnels fascilitates Kobold transit?
I do believe our little Kobold friends would make great use out of Longspears. As previously mentioned, the utility aspect of using a Longspear as a tool for leverage also gives Kobolds a reason to have them around.
A Longspear could be used as a balance pole for crossing a rope bridge over a deep chasm within their mines... little acrobatic lizard person scampers right across, then turns around and hides to stab/trip the Human in heavy armor as they try cross. Maybe the bridge is 25' across with an overhead blockage, making jumping difficult, at best. If all else fails, the Kobold can cut the rope, but he has faith in his trusty Longspear...
For a the Challenge Rating, I mean possible reward, it is not worth risking death at the bottom of a pit... the Human turns around and leaves. The inner nest is safe, and the tribe lives another day.
You are absolutely correct in that the utility value of the longspear would be great.
There's nothing in the rules that says it cannot be done. But I imagine the longspear would be difficult to maneuver through some tunnels as it is too long to hold vertically and too long to get through the twisty tunnels held horizontally. In 'reality' it would keep getting jammed and would slow the carrier.
| VoodistMonk |
That is why you have two sizes of tunnels with the holes... just walk down the big hallway and slide it backwards through the hole into the small hallway. They can pretty much be left if place once set. It's not like you have to carry them around throughout the mine, just leave them where they need to be.
| Java Man |
Slaver's crossbows seem like a good fit. I've put pyrogrenade squads against players, that would be basic kobold warriors throwing unlit oil flasks to provide fuel for the squad leaders who use alchemist fire. Ideally this attack takes place in a rubble caltrop covered section of the tunnels.
Slings can be used to trigger pressure switches from a safe distance.
| Mark Hoover 330 |
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The age of a kobold lair in my homebrew world of Karnoss can be established by the prevalence of "tunnel layering." When a kobold tribe has the time and resources, they essentially widen the initial tunnels and mineshafts from Small size to Large sized. They take the debris from their work and then frame in Small or Tiny sized tunnels BETWEEN the larger ones. In the end you have walls between halls/chambers on my dungeon maps that are 5' to 10' wide; through the middle of these are secret, kobold-sized tunnels.
This is how the kobolds in long standing kobold lairs actually get around.
So, moving through these in-between tunnels, there are lots of murder holes, secret doors and Tiny sized vents or culverts through which kobolds can then spy on, attack, or retreat from intruders. When there are four kobolds behind 2.5' of stone, stabbing at the party through holes only big enough for them to see or poke a spearhead through, it's difficult for the party to attack back without AoE damage or other spell effects.
Another cruelty through said murder holes... Kobold Adepts.
Did you know that a single kobold Adept 4 is a CR 1 threat? Did you also know that a well built, Kobold Adept 4 with 2 feats can potentially use one of those feats to get a lower reduction on the penalty metamagic inflicts, then use Empower Spell to cast one Empowered Burning Hands in their level 2 spell slot?
So you have a kobold Adept 4, hiding in one of these murder holes, casting a 4d4 burning hands when most or all of the party walks through the kill zone, potentially doing 15 damage to multiple PCs on a Surprise round. That's a single, CR 1 threat, plus whatever you tack on for the kobold's use of Full Cover. It's not a trap, so the trapfinder of the group may not spot the hidden foe, and on a failed save that's potentially negative HP for any hero with only 1-2 HD, especially if they've previously taken damage they haven't healed from.
Yet another weapon in the kobolds' arsenal is their ability to count as CR = Level -3 instead of CR = Level -2 when using NPC classes. Think of what you could do with a kobold Adept 4/Warrior 3 as a boss-level threat against a level 1 party. Mounting them on a flying Mauler archetype familiar, flying around dropping 4d4 Burning Hands spells, 4 feats, BAB +5, Dex +1, Size +1 for accuracy with some weapons, and that's BEFORE you choose feats or gear.
Good times...