Hi there,
Yesterday I made a post about a mad scientist kind of character I discuss here. Though the RP is still in the works, I would like to discuss these mechanics in more detail. Because I don't really understand them.
The build:
Rogue 2 / Vigilante 2 / Vivisectionist 16
** is unsure
Feats:
1 Sap Adept
2 Rogue Talent: Underhanded
3 **Craft Wondrous Items
5 **Master Craftsman
7 Sap Master (This and the previous could be switched for earlier combat effectiveness)
9 Fiendish Obedience
10 Vigilante Social Talent: Always Prepared (Ex) (To be extra useful to my party)
11 ** Fleshwarper - Vigilante Talent: Sure-Footed (full speed acrobatics and stealth, but I'm unsure if I should even take this level)
13 Diverse Obedience (For +2 HD and the ability to take Evangelist boons)
15 **Quick Draw (He will be using different kinds of (thrown) weapons and chugging potions)
17 **Extra Rogue Talent: Snap Shot
19 ??
I am thinking to go Str with this little guy. I plan on being in melee, after level 9 I will be able to cast my first Monstrous Physique spell, which I will use to get useful combat forms. Like the Eurayle with her 6 Bite attacks. Belt of Mighty Hurling would allow me to throw stuff. My low BAB will be patched up by Mutagens, my own magic items and size increases. I can craft my own Amulet of Might Fists with Merciful, which will allow me to be in my combat form and still use Sap Master if I can get my targets flatfooted.
So yeah I have a few questions:
1) I don't really know what I am doing with the feats or their order. Any ideas?
I don't want combat feats that lock me into one attack form because of Monstrous Physique. I could be over specializing on that surprise round. But Underhanded in combination with Sap Master and Snap Shot is just too good to be true!
If I know the fight is coming I will end up having 23d6 SA dice, so 46d6 maximized = 264 + 46 (Sap Adept) = 310 Nonlethal damage in one shot. Just from SA damage (Sense Vitals and Halfling Vengeance + 2d6 from my deity).
3) Any other reliable ways to get enemies flatfooted (NOT denied their dex)? I am thinking maybe Grease?
Last question:
Andirifkhu gives a boon that allows me to sneak attack without my target becoming aware of me.
4) If I use Imp Invis, could I sneak attack on a full attack without them ever becoming aware of me? Should they remain unaware, are they be flatfooted into the first round, giving me the opportunity to full attack with Sap Master?
This is in response to @avr in the thread mentioned above:
Underhanded looks better than it is because getting the actions required to draw a concealed weapon during the surprise round isn't easy - you need the quick draw feat (which you don't have until level 15) and also a means of getting a move action during the surprise round like sandals of quick reaction. And you need to invest in the sleight of hand skill to conceal a weapon. On top of all that you need a bit of charisma, which will cost on an int-based alchemist who uses at least two of the physical stats too, and who probably isn't dumping wis.
Yeah, you are right about being quite MAD... This was a concern for me as well.
As for drawing a concealed weapon I was thinking to use the Springloaded Wrist Sheath, which would allow me to draw a Throwing hammer as a Swift action. I believe it should work as a swift action is allowed whenever a free action is allowed, and the surprise round allows for free actions.
Snap shot requires you to have a weapon out and ready, underhanded requires you to have a weapon concealed. You can't use these with the same weapon. I guess it works with one weapon in hand with which you use snap shot, one concealed to make the attack with underhanded.
I don't see that first requirement you mention anywhere in the wording of Snap Shot... Could you help me out?
You can't get craft wondrous items before master craftsman unless you're a spellcaster, unless you get the spell knowledge discovery - which you're not eligible for until alchemist level 4/character level 6.
Thanks, I'll work on that.
As to whether I'd allow this concept, it depends on the game. I can't say more than that sorry. You'll need to talk to your GM.
There are a number of ways of making an enemy flat-footed, but they aren't easy one way or another. e.g. the shatter defences feat, or the distracting attack rogue talent.
Flat-footed status goes away when they get to act and you only get one round of surprise. Separately, greater invisibility will deny dex bonus (not make the enemy flat-footed) against all attacks in a full attack.
Cheers, I will look at the rogue talent especially. I know its hard to get FF status.....
Re snap shot - you get one attack before any other actions take place. Just an attack roll, not a free, swift or other action; if the weapon isn't ready it doesn't happen.
Re spring loaded wrist sheaths, I don't think that overrides the action required to get a concealed weapon out ('Drawing a hidden weapon is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.' - quick draw reduces this to a move action). If it's ready to draw easily it isn't concealed.
One other option for getting a concealed weapon out without people noticing is the palm weapon action under sleight of hand.
A successful DC 20 Sleight of Hand check allows you to unobtrusively draw a weapon or other object no larger or longer than a light weapon (which includes potions, but not wands or alchemist bombs). Observers can notice you drawing the item as normal with opposed Perception checks. Creatures carefully observing you gain a +4 bonus on this Perception check.
That's a standard action by default, but can be done as a move action w/a -20 to the skill check. Or at -10 with signature skill (sleight of hand) and 10 ranks.
Yeah, underhanded is really hard to make work.
Re spring loaded wrist sheaths, I don't think that overrides the action required to get a concealed weapon out
That's literally what the item does.
Wrist Sheath: "This is a sheath designed to be strapped to your forearm and hidden under a long sleeve. The sheath can hold one forearmlength item, such as a dagger, dart, or wand, or up to five arrows or crossbow bolts. As a move action, you can bend your wrist to cause some or all of these items to drop into your hand (provoking attacks of opportunity as normal)."
Spring Loaded Wrist Sheath: "This item works like a standard wrist sheath, but releasing an item from it is a swift action."
I seriously doubt a 2 lbs hammer fits in there, though. It also takes the Vigilante level to be proficient with it.
I plan on being in melee, after level 9 I will be able to cast my first Monstrous Physique spell, which I will use to get useful combat forms. Like the Eurayle with her 6 Bite attacks.
Forget euryale, Deathsnatcher is where the money's at. Mechanically by far the best form for MP1, and should fit your character concept (as I understood it).
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
Swift Actions:
A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve spellcasting, activating a feat, or the activation of magic items.
Emphasis mine. I believe that means you can use the springloaded wrist sheath.
@Derklord: I agree that a normal sized Throwing hammer is probably not possible... Maybe a tiny one or something else? Blunt tipped throwing arrows maybe? It would also allow 5 of them.
I have also thought of the following: Hide a blunt throwing weapon into a teddybear using sleight of hand. With a little creativity you could make the argument that it is now a saplike throwing weapon. Or at least a concealed weapon that can act as a sap. Plus bonus points for throwing your teddy bead in combat :P
And I thought a Sting attack was secondary? In my thinking the 6 snake heads trumps 6 sligthly stronger attacks, especially because the snake heads have 10 foot reach, which would allow for more maneuverability.
Re snap shot - you get one attack before any other actions take place. Just an attack roll, not a free, swift or other action; if the weapon isn't ready it doesn't happen.
Woops. I see what you mean now. You are right, Snap Shot only allows a single ranged attack. Dang it, this will have to work without Snap Shot then. That forces me to go Dex based though, for the initiative bonus. Oh well.
For extra cheese I could go Ratfolk and take Leadership, hope my DM lets me take a Ratfolk follower with the Slayer class, the Distracting Attack and a Seven-branched Sword for good measure :)
Ratfolk because we could flank if we both occupy the same square.
Hellcat Pounce would give you a 2nd attack in the Surprise Round if they somehow survive your first attack. With Subtle Razor, they *should* be unaware of your 2nd attack too. I'd talk to your GM about that though.
As far as forcing SnA's in combat, Shattered Defenses or Dirty Tricks (Blind) will work. Or figure out an infallible Flanking strategy.
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For extra cheese I could go Ratfolk and take Leadership, hope my DM lets me take a Ratfolk follower with the Slayer class, the Distracting Attack and a Seven-branched Sword for good measure :)
Ratfolk because we could flank if we both occupy the same square.
for REAL cheese, use alchemist to clone (similacrum) yourself, then have multiple of you running around
Tbh, I think the Fiendish Obedience is unnecessary. Any sensible GM is going to look at your sheet and realize that your "not-that-evil" character is in fact extremely evil and will act accordingly. Personally, having evil characters in good campaigns doesn't bother me, but I know it bothers a lot of other GM's/parties to play like that. You would have better acceptance if you dropped all that stuff.
@Ryze:
Yeah, Hellcat Pounce was on the short list. But I am quite feat starved already, wanting to get some nice crafting/alchemy related feats as well... And yes, in my current iteration of this characcter I have dropped the obediences.
@Name Violation: Hahahah, I LIKE it! :D I haven't really looked at the Simulacrum feats/spells yet, but I'll give it a look. They would be a little underpowered if not fully equipped though... Right?
@Scott: So yeah, about flat-footed. I have actually found quite a few different ways of getting the flatfooted condition. Different feats, items and abilities. But the best one is what led me to changing the build on this character: Sloth's Bite. A poison with a decent DC that makes the target Flatfooted!
Other options:
The second best one? An adition to your shield that lets you do a trip maneuver, which forces the opponent to be FF for a whole round.
https://www.aonprd.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Shield%20boss%20( reinforcing%20boss)
Feats:
Surprise Attack (Ex) (PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 69): During the surprise round, opponents are always considered flat-footed to a rogue with this ability, even if they have already acted.
Distracting Attack (Ex) (Advanced Player's Guide pg. 1): A rogue with this talent can make sneak attacks with subtle flourishes that disorient and distract her enemy. When she hits a creature with a melee attack that deals sneak attack damage, she can forgo the additional damage to cause the creature to become flat-footed against one target of her choosing until the beginning of her next turn. The rogue cannot designate herself as the creature gaining the benefit of this talent. Creatures with uncanny dodge are immune to distracting attack.
Stealth Stunt (Ex) (Inner Sea Combat pg. 16): When benefiting from concealment, a rogue with this talent can forgo an attack of opportunity to attempt a Stealth check against the provoking opponent’s CMD. Success allows the rogue to treat her opponent as flat-footed against the rogue’s first melee attack before the end of her next turn. Using this ability does not count against the rogue’s available attacks of opportunity for the round. A rogue must be trained in Stealth to select this talent.
Items:
https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Obliviating
https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Groundbreaker%20 Cloak
https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Horn%20of%20Batt le%20Clarity
https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Rime-Stride%20Bo ots
https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Stag%27s%20Helm
There was tons more to search through in the Nethys but I got absorbed in re-designing this character as a poisoner.
I think your best bet is to get Hellcat Pounce, Cornugon Smash, and Shatter Defenses. Your first hit will allow you to Intimidate the target, your 2nd hit from Hellcat Pounce will Shatter Defenses, and then they're FF'ed to your upcoming full attack action in round 1 and for pretty much the rest of the encounter.
I wouldn't invest too much in poisons. Poison DC's don't scale and by lvl 8-12, most things are either immune or can pass a Fort check with a roll of 5 or higher. They're pretty decent lvls 1-7 though.
I made a PFS character that was my take on Batman. He was a half-orc ninja He had a few shuriken powers and took unarmed strike. With vanish and improved vanish securing those sneak attacks were great :)
Id have to go look up my sheets, but I know he had sap adept, unsure if he had the follow up master feat.
I think I might have found a way for this to work but it means dropping Sap Master, Sense Vitals and Halfling Revenge, which means it might be more advantageous to take straight rogue instead of Alchemist. And to be clear, I mean the combo of Snap Shot and Underhanded. Losing all those SA dice would hurt but at least I found a way that this might work:
Warlock Vigilante gives an ability called Mystic Bolts:
Mystic Bolts
A warlock can sling projectiles of magical energy at will by shooting a bolt or touching her foe. A melee mystic bolt requires the target to be within reach, and a ranged mystic bolt is a ranged attack with a range of 30 feet. A mystic bolt deals 1d6 points of damage plus 1 for every 4 vigilante levels the warlock has.The warlock must choose one type of damage for her mystic bolt: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. Attacking with a mystic bolt takes the place of one of the warlock’s normal attacks, and she can make a full attack using mystic bolts. The warlock vigilante attacks with mystic bolts as though they were light one-handed weapons, and the bolts can be used for two-weapon fighting (with each hand creating one mystic bolt) and feats and abilities that apply to weapon attacks (unless they’re excluded from that feat, such as with Power Attack). Weapon Focus (ray) doesn’t apply to mystic bolts, but a warlock can take Weapon Focus (mystic bolt) and apply it to both melee and ranged mystic bolts.
Creating a mystic bolt requires the hand to be free, but the bolt appears only briefly, so a warlock using mystic bolts has a free hand any time she isn’t attacking with a mystic bolt.
The warlock threatens with a mystic bolt, but only if she has a hand free. Because mystic bolts are impermanent, a spell that targets a single weapon (like magic weapon) can’t affect it, nor can a mystic bolt be made with magic weapon special abilities. Abilities that affect all weapon attacks the warlock makes, such as the arcane striker warlock talent, function with mystic bolts.
At 7th level and every 6 vigilante levels thereafter, the warlock chooses another damage type from the list above. Each time she creates a mystic bolt, she can have it use any one of the damage types she has selected.
This ability replaces vigilante specialization.
Piercing Bolts (Ex)
At 3rd level, the warlock can choose one mystic bolt per round to be a touch attack. This turns a melee mystic bolt into a melee touch attack or a ranged mystic bolt into a ranged touch attack. At 5th level, the warlock can treat all of her mystic bolts as touch attacks.This ability replaces unshakable.
Emphasis mine.
I mean, it is not concealed through Sleight of Hand but I find it hard to believe any GM would not allow this to work in tandem with Underhanded.
I'm thinking about that Shield Boss and Sap Master, and I'm coming up with a Captain America Build.
1Brawler1: Snakebite Striker, Unarmed 1d6, Sneak Attack +1d6, Sap Adept, BAB+1
We want to use a Shield Boss, so we want to use a Shield. Unarmed Strikes are blunt weapons that can do nonlethal damage, so we are using Sap Adept right away.
2B1Unchained Rogue1: Weapon Finesse, Sneak Attack +1d6
3B1R2: Rogue Talent, Underhanded Trick, Fury's Fall, BAB+2The Hooked Shield Boss works with Improved Trip. Underhanded Trick gives you Improved Trip without needing to meet the prerequisites. When your character gets to level 6, he is treated as having all the prerequisites for Greater Trip.
4B2R2: Brawler's Flurry, Vicious Stomp, BAB+3
This Character 2 weapon fights with Shield and Unarmed Strike. He makes a Trip Attempt with the Hooked Shield Boss to make his opponent Flatfooted. Then he makes another Trip Attempt in place of his Unarmed Strike to make his opponent Prone. Vicious Stomp gives you an Attack of opportunity whenever someone goes Prone. And you get your Sneak Attack Damage.
5B2R3: Sneak Attack+1d6, Finesse Training (Dex-to-Damage), Sap Master, BAB+4
Now your Sneak Attack Damage is 6d6+6.
6B2R4: Ninja Trick, Style Master, Monkey Style, BAB+5
This is a safeguard against catastrophic Trip Rolls that make you go prone yourself. Just go ahead and go Prone. With Monkey Style, you don't take any Attack Penalty nor Armor Class Penalty while Prone.
7B2R5: Sneak Attack + 1d6, Knockout Artist
Knockout Artist gives you another +1 Damage/Sneak Attack Damage die that stacks with Sap Adept. It requires you to use Unarmed Strikes. So now your SA Damage is 8d6+16 when you use your Unarmed Strikes to do nonlethal Damage.
8B2R6: Combat Trick, Knockout Punch, Greater Trip, BAB+6
Greater Trip Stacks with Improved Trip. This guy gets 2 Attacks of Opportunity when he Trips someone: 1 for Tripping him, 1 for making...
Put a Fortuitous enchant on an AOMF and that's 3 AoO's. 2 on the way down, 1 on the way up. Keep taking rogue til 10 for Opportunist?
UnRogue (or Vivisectionist) VMC Cavalier, Order of the Hammer.
Sap Master/Underhanded, Monk's unarmed damage (nonlethal)... just punch a fool.
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You mean the Underhanded Trick Rogue Talent that gives you Improve Dirty Trick? If that's what you meant, that doesn't work with Sap Master...
Pretty sure they were referring to the talent that is in the title of the thread...
Underhanded:
Benefit: A rogue with this talent gains a +4 circumstance bonus on all Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal a weapon. Furthermore, if she makes a sneak attack during the surprise round using a concealed weapon that her opponent didn’t know about, she does not have to roll sneak attack damage, and the sneak attack deals maximum damage. A rogue can only use the underhanded talent a number of times per day equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 0).