So I'm getting ready to run a mini-campaign starting at lvl 9, and one of my players has an interesting idea.
He is making a dwarf fighter(brawler)/barbarian (invuln rager) who has taken greater grapple, armor spikes, and improved two-weapon fighting, along with double slice, rapid grappler, throat slicer.
His plan is to run up and hug enemies, grapple them and if he can, tear them to bits with his armor spikes. He has +1 spike gauntlets when not grappling, or the dwarven boulder helmet if he bull rushes.
What I'm wondering is, can someone use a gauntlet as a primary weapon and armor spikes as an off-hand weapon? Any other thoughts about this build I should know as a relatively new GM?
I'm not sure I understand. Does the player just want a character who has two viable options for close combat? Because grappling is it's own deal; you don't get a normal attack routine when you're grappling someone. Hence improved and greater grapple.
But to answer your question, yes. As others have said, a spiked gauntlet and armor spikes are a totally legal pair of weapons to fight with. Though honestly, I'd let my players use two weapon fighting with armor spikes all on their own. I mean, you have gauntlets. Your armor has spikes. Gauntlets are armor. Your gauntlets have spikes. -- along with every other weaponizeable body part, etc.
Sure, just don't allow a 2 handed weapon and an offhand (when TWF) I think is the consensus.
Personally, I allow Two-Weapon Fighting with a two-handed weapon and either armor spikes or unarmed attacks (kicks). However, the attack with the two-handed weapon only gains 1x Str and Power Attack bonuses on damage instead of 1.5x.
Welcome to the metaphysical hands of effort flamewar.
My advice is to browse through the threads about hands of effort, fighting with more than two limbs, iterative attacks, none handed weapons and threatening/wielding definitions.
Once you have a sense of the issues involved make up your mind how it will work in your game world and tell your players.
For what its worth, I allow a character to 'change grips' multiple times to use different weapons in iterative attacks, so a character can use a 2 handed sword and armour spikes in the same round if they have enough iterative attacks. They cannot do TWF with both weapons because the none handed weapon counts as a light weapon requiring one hand of effort and 2+1=3. At the end of the round the player would have to choose whether to wield the 2 handed weapon or the spikes for AoO purposes. A monk or brawler however has a class ability that unarmed strikes can be performed even with their hands full. So a monk could simultaneously wield a longspear and their unarmed strikes and threaten at reach and adjacently.
To everybody tempted to reply. Instead of telling me that I'm wrong, please write up your own interpretation so the OP can gain insight into the different interpretations in use.
Spiked gauntlet main hand and armor spikes off hand is fine. I was fairly sure you could armor spike main hand and off hand, but I'm not sure that's correct. Armor spikes you say "You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case.", but it's unclear whether that's an inclusive or exclusive "or".
Thoughts on the build: two weapon fighting and grappling are both feat intensive and the player is likely going to be poor at both. Two weapon fighting doesn't function in a grapple. Recommend he upgrade to razored armor when he can afford it.
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Welcome to the metaphysical hands of effort flamewar.
No metaphysics or hands of effort required. It is all quite clearly stated in the rules;
So you automatically add in armor spike damage on a successful grapple OR can attack with them as a light off-hand weapon when not grappling... following all the normal rules for off-hand weapon attacks.
so... the exact same thing as using a 1h weapon but they don't get a shield.Sure, just don't allow a 2 handed weapon and an offhand (when TWF) I think is the consensus.Personally, I allow Two-Weapon Fighting with a two-handed weapon and either armor spikes or unarmed attacks (kicks). However, the attack with the two-handed weapon only gains 1x Str and Power Attack bonuses on damage instead of 1.5x.
They do get the benefit of the generally larger base weapon damage: For example, a Medium sized ranger 4 with Combat Style (Two-Weapon Fighting) and lead blades would "only" do 3d6 (greatsword) or 2d8 (nodachi) + Str mod with their primary attack and 1d8 (armor spikes) + 1/2 Str mod with their "off-hand"... add enlarge person from a friendly party member for 4d6 or 3d8 primary and 1d10 "off-hand".
1d8 goes to 2d6
I... nevermind.
Everyone knows where I stand in this argument. I'm just going to see myself out before I say something stupid.
Thanks for all the responses. He and I have talked and worked many of our issues out. His plan is the following:
Round 1, move and antagonize (feat)
Round 2, bull rush and crash into someone with helmet (dwarven boulder helmet), which staggers him
Round 3, attempt grapple while staggered
Round 4, maintain grapple, pin, coup de grace
I've told him it's totally fine if he wants to attack with the gauntlet and the armor spikes as a full attack, but when he's grappling he only gets one attack per the grappling damage rules. I don't think greater grapple or rapid grappler changes this?
He agreed to this, so he'll either do a full attack, using some combination of gauntlet/armor spikes, or grapple and follow the grapple chain.
He is wanting someone to cast Enlarge Person on him, which is cool, but since his Dex is 17 (yep a dwarf with a 17 dex), due to the dex drop he loses improved two weapon fighting. He's aware of that and will try to get a belt of dex to solve that.
Hope this answers some questions. Any thoughts?
J
It's really inefficient.
-He could dual wield the armor spikes and the helm, or the gauntlet and the helm, and worry about one fewer weapon to upgrade. But the helm isn't a great idea on its own.
-If he uses the helm to bullrush and is staggered, then he doesn't have the immediate action to continue the antagonize effect on his second round, so it ends right away. This isn't great considering its once per day per target limit.
-and focusing on bullrush, 2 weapon fighting, and grapple, without going for overlap options really hurts the build. If he went with a shield bashing build he'd be getting more bang for his buck and could rely on fewer weapons. As a DM, I'd offer to let him use his helm as a shield for dual wielding and shield bashing feats so he could keep his flavor without gimping his character.
-If he took the brawler class, then he could dual wield with only one weapon, and wouldn't lose two weapon fighting when he lost his dexterity.
Thanks everyone, I have a much clearer idea of how to GM this guy and his grappling and fighting style.
If it were me as a player, I've heard good things about the Tetori so I'd probably go that way. Too bad you can't play them unchained.
J
I've never played an alchemist but I didn't know they could have familiars other than the tumor. How can they get a king crab?
I've never played an alchemist but I didn't know they could have familiars other than the tumor. How can they get a king crab?
Tumor familiars are familiars. They offer the same boons as a regular familiar and can take archetypes just like a regular familiar (with the exception of one that is called out...defender? Something like that)
Okay, got it. However a King Crab will die if it is out of water for more than a few hours at a time. How do you keep it alive? Ziploc bags haven't been invented yet, lol.
They survive 1 hour per constitution point, 12 hours is pretty manageable. As a tumor familiar, it only acts as the animal while detached, so you have some additional flexibility there. There are also aquarium balls, though you may not need it if your DM rules that attaching to the player resets their drowning timer.
That's a good point, it's technically a tumor, so it could attach back to me