| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well, fourth wheel.
A new Discord game is starting soon and we've two bards trying to avoid overlapping.
One is a party animal and hard-leaning to tricky combat, but also fun party times. Has a vague grasp on mechanics, but strong character idea.
The other one is kind of the opposite of that, and is this guy in this thread.
The current build for the "do all the other things" bard is below, but note that this is flexible and feedback is appreciated:
20 point buy
Str 7 {grant 4}
Dex 14 {cost 5}
Con 14 {cost 5}
Int 15 {cost 7}
Wis 10
Cha 15 {cost 7}
20+4=24-5=19-5=14-7=7-7=0
Primary charisma
Secondary intelligence and dexterity
END GOAL: creating a character that can help fill in the gaps of roles with skill monkey (lore master), item crafter, and spell-caster
BARD SKILLS: Escape Artist, Perform (act, dance, oratory, percussion) {bluff, disguise, acrobatics, fly, diplomacy, sense motive, handle animal, intimidate}, Spellcraft, Stealth, Use Magic Device; Sleight of Hand, Linguistics, and Knowledges (to augment Lore)
CN Aasimar (peri-blooded) [Halfling; Human]; deathless spirit, halo, scion of humanity {-> silver tongued?}
Deathless Spirit: Particularly strong-willed aasimars possess celestial spirits capable of resisting the powers of death. They gain resistance 5 against negative energy damage. They do not lose hit points when they gain a negative level, and they gain a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against death effects, energy drain, negative energy, and spells or spell-like abilities of the necromancy school. This racial trait replaces celestial resistance.
Halo: Some aasimars possess the ability to manifest halos. An aasimar with this racial trait can create light centered on her head at will as a spell-like ability. When using her halo, she gains a +2 circumstance bonus on Intimidate checks against evil creatures and on saving throws against becoming blinded or dazzled. This racial trait replaces the darkvision standard racial trait.
Scion of Humanity: Some aasimars’ heavenly ancestry is extremely distant. An aasimar with this racial trait counts as an outsider (native) and a humanoid (human) for any effect related to race, including feat prerequisites and spells that affect humanoids. She can pass for human without using the Disguise skill. This racial trait replaces the Celestial language and alters the native subtype.
-> Silver Tongued: Human are often adept at subtle manipulation and putting even sworn foes at ease. Humans with this trait gain a +2 bonus on Diplomacy and Bluff checks. In addition, when they use Diplomacy to shift a creature’s attitude, they can shift up to three steps up rather than just two. This racial trait replaces skilled.
Ability Score Modifiers: +2 Intelligence and +2 Charisma
Type: Aasimars are outsiders with the native subtype and a humanoid with the human subtype.
Scion of Humanity: Some aasimars’ heavenly ancestry is extremely distant. An aasimar with this racial trait counts as an outsider (native) and a humanoid (human) for any effect related to race, including feat prerequisites and spells that affect humanoids. She can pass for human without using the Disguise skill.
Size: A small creature and gains a +1 size bonus to his AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a –1 penalty to their CMB and CMD, and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks.
Base Speed: Aasimars have a base speed of 30 feet.
Languages: Aasimars begin play speaking Common. Aasimars with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, and Sylvan. See the Linguistics skill page for more information about these languages. {presumptively Celestial?}
Defense Racial Traits
Deathless Spirit: Particularly strong-willed aasimars possess celestial spirits capable of resisting the powers of death. They gain resistance 5 against negative energy damage. They do not lose hit points when they gain a negative level, and they gain a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against death effects, energy drain, negative energy, and spells or spell-like abilities of the necromancy school.
Feat and Skill Racial Traits
Silver Tongued: Human are often adept at subtle manipulation and putting even sworn foes at ease. Humans with this trait gain a +2 bonus on Diplomacy and Bluff checks. In addition, when they use Diplomacy to shift a creature’s attitude, they can shift up to three steps up rather than just two.
Magical Racial Traits
Halo: Some aasimars possess the ability to manifest halos. An aasimar with this racial trait can create light centered on her head at will as a spell-like ability. When using her halo, she gains a +2 circumstance bonus on Intimidate checks against evil creatures and on saving throws against becoming blinded or dazzled.
Spell-Like Ability (Sp): Aasimars can use pyrotechnics once per day as a spell-like ability (caster level equal to the aasimar’s class level).
Well that's a mess.
Str 7 (-3), Dex 14 (+2), Con 14 (+2), Int 17 (+3), Wis 10 (+0), Cha 17 (+3)
POSSIBLE Skills: Escape Artist, Perform (act, dance, oratory, percussion) {bluff, disguise, acrobatics, fly, diplomacy, sense motive, handle animal, intimidate}, Spellcraft, Stealth, Use Magic Device; Sleight of Hand, Linguistics, and Knowledges (to augment Lore)
Type: Aasimars are outsiders with the native subtype and a humanoid with the human subtype.
Scion of Humanity: Some aasimars’ heavenly ancestry is extremely distant. An aasimar with this racial trait counts as an outsider (native) and a humanoid (human) for any effect related to race, including feat prerequisites and spells that affect humanoids. She can pass for human without using the Disguise skill.
Size: A small creature and gains a +1 size bonus to his AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a –1 penalty to their CMB and CMD, and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks.
Base Speed: Aasimars have a base speed of 30 feet.
Languages: Aasimars begin play speaking Common. Aasimars with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, and Sylvan. See the Linguistics skill page for more information about these languages. {presumptively Celestial?}
Defense Racial Traits
Deathless Spirit: Particularly strong-willed aasimars possess celestial spirits capable of resisting the powers of death. They gain resistance 5 against negative energy damage. They do not lose hit points when they gain a negative level, and they gain a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against death effects, energy drain, negative energy, and spells or spell-like abilities of the necromancy school.
Feat and Skill Racial Traits
Silver Tongued: Human are often adept at subtle manipulation and putting even sworn foes at ease. Humans with this trait gain a +2 bonus on Diplomacy and Bluff checks. In addition, when they use Diplomacy to shift a creature’s attitude, they can shift up to three steps up rather than just two.
Magical Racial Traits
Halo: Some aasimars possess the ability to manifest halos. An aasimar with this racial trait can create light centered on her head at will as a spell-like ability. When using her halo, she gains a +2 circumstance bonus on Intimidate checks against evil creatures and on saving throws against becoming blinded or dazzled.
Spell-Like Ability (Sp): Aasimars can use pyrotechnics once per day as a spell-like ability (caster level equal to the aasimar’s class level).
The GM has already approved any of the choices listed; the entire party has agreed upon CN to start.
Though basic bard is presumed, Archetypes are welcome if they do what is indicated above ("fill the gaps in the party") better.
Several suggestions welcome (and more than one build suggestion, if there is, preferred).
The goal is to have a character that can help fill in the gaps of roles with skill monkey (lore master), item crafter, and spell-caster (well, tertiary spell-caster; note - we are aware items are likely going to do the heavy lifting, here).
Related thread about entirely archetyping-out of class features in general.
PLEASE see the OTHER BARD for things we're trying to avoid on this guy! Thank you!
(Other party members: another bard, human kineticist kinetic knight for tanking, elf musket master gunslinger for ranged damage.)
Overly-aggressive or insistent advice, "No, you should never bard, they suck." comments (at least without adequate explanation of why) is not what we're looking for - instead specific advice, a few possible builds or rebuilds, even an alternate class that does "the same thing only better" or something is all possible.
Thank you all for participating!
EDIT: oh, current traits are Propitiation (for increased versatility) and Spark of Creation (for discount; we're expecting money to be a hair tight at first; also currently have an eye toward the feat inscribe magic tattoo, eventually).
Setting note: guns exist with the "guns are everywhere" and "modern firearms" - don't know if that changes this guide, but figured it was worth mentioning.
EDIT: That awkward moment when, while editing, you mess up your own title and the joke to go with it. XD
OH! Forgot!
Background skills are also used.
(And favoriting my own posts for easy find and navigation back here, later.)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The chronicler of worlds archetype is excellent for a bard lore master because Int is obviously better for that than Cha. It also gives a theme to work with IMO.
If they'll be getting a bunch of item crafting feats then they won't have a lot of feats free for other things. A few ranged feats wouldn't be a terrible idea given the guns everywhere/modern firearms setting but wouldn't be required. There are plenty of oddball feats which might fit a smart bard.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Dwarven scholar. Don't be a social bard, be a knowledge bard and party tactician. Hand out combat feats and teamwork feats to the entire party. Everyone with guns is going to love when you cast shared training and hand out ranged attack teamwork feats.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Looking at the other party members, one of the bards should be comfortable being in melee. What would happen if the kinetic knight were dropped by an (un)lucky crit? In any case, make sure you can contribute in combat. Don't be just a "skills guy".
How closely will encumbrance be tracked? You might find 7 strength woefully inadequate. I think you're putting too much emphasis on intelligence, personally; it's really not that important for bards.
...what is this character suppose to do?
It’s stated in the opening post several times. Try reading that again!
EDIT: huh, this was meant in jest but on re-read it comes off as really aggressive and that is not the tone at aaaaalllll. Sorry, dude.
Short version: fill the gaps for the others. “Master of none” but maybe helper to all (though not with the actual Helper trait as you pointed out).
As for story, I’m under the assumption that no one wants the three different sets of five pages each of backstory I’ve been given by the players who are seeking advice that I lack the time and modern expertise to give.
You want the gist: peri-descendent orphan raised in a humanocentric racist empire grew up caught between bitterness at the patronizing treatment, crass cunning in using it to advantage, and care for people in general; blah parents dead in village fire, raised in orphanage, the boy that didn’t grow up, something something skip a bit brother fakes being a “holy child” mutter specifics, rob from the rich - or at least gullible - and so on; runs into party blah. Voila! Enjoy one (highly condensed) of three (quite long) stories!
(So vaguely the quiet kid but less creepy singer and more ignored and patronized by his party.)
:D
Looking at the other party members, one of the bards should be comfortable being in melee. What would happen if the kinetic knight were dropped by an (un)lucky crit? In any case, make sure you can contribute in combat. Don't be just a "skills guy".
How closely will encumbrance be tracked? You might find 7 strength woefully inadequate. I think you're putting too much emphasis on intelligence, personally; it's really not that important for bards.
Pretty sure the other bard is going to be melee, but I can’t say for sure. As to encumbrance, it’s likely not going to be an issue.
Predominantly this guy’s role is going to be support: inspirations, buffs, and general increase of everyone else’s effectiveness. I’m presuming the plan is also to get a healing stick or something similar for healing.
Your GM is going to have to be careful about encounter choices - you have no full casters, which limits a party (obviously), and very limited condition removal and healing...
Outside of item creation, I think this sort of stuff might be the biggest set of advice they’d be looking for, but from the player side. While an obvious lack of full casting is obvious, going the full casting route may well overshadow the others by accident, which is something the player wanted to avoid.
One interesting thing is that most of the responses in this thread emphasize this guy being better in personal combat. That is not this guy’s purpose. He is the gap-filler and assistant, but he is explicitly trying to avoid stardom; letting the others get glory.
That said, the dwarven scholar is also an interesting take.
Is there some other method that he can grant feats without sacrificing inspiration?
I’ll have to think about the chronicler of worlds, too.
Thanks!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Your GM is going to have to be careful about encounter choices - you have no full casters, which limits a party (obviously), and very limited condition removal and healing...Outside of item creation, I think this sort of stuff might be the biggest set of advice they’d be looking for, but from the player side. While an obvious lack of full casting is obvious, going the full casting route may well overshadow the others by accident, which is something the player wanted to avoid.
One interesting thing is that most of the responses in this thread emphasize this guy being better in personal combat. That is not this guy’s purpose. He is the gap-filler and assistant, but he is explicitly trying to avoid stardom; letting the others get glory.
That said, the dwarven scholar is also an interesting take.
Is there some other method that he can grant feats without sacrificing inspiration?I’ll have to think about the chronicler of worlds, too.
Thanks!
Well, the shared training spell is simply a bard spell, so all it really requires is that you take teamwork feats to then share.
You've got ...more or less three kind of "clusters" of teamwork feats
Melee, which is things like outflank, paired opportunists, broken wing gambit, feint partner shenanigans
Ranged, stuff like enfilading fire, wounded paw gambit, etc etc
And phalanx, which are generally survival boosters, shield wall, whatever the one is that gives you +1 to saves for everyone with the feat adjacent to you, escape route. Generally they just up a defense or provide help with mobility as long as the party fights shoulder to shoulder. With a cooperative party this grouping tends to be on the very powerful for a feat side of things.
Instead of plain bard you could go urban skald as well, you'd have access to that spell, AND the ability to throw out dex boosting rage. In a party with another bard, a gunslinger, and a kineticist that would likely be very welcome. You could go urban/battles scion skald, and instead of handing out rage powers you could hand out teamwork feats with your dex boosting raging song, as well as having access to the shared training spell to share even more of them.
That build, its not inconceivable to be just handing out like 5 or 6 bonus feats by around level 10.
Instead of plain bard you could go urban skald as well, you'd have access to that spell, AND the ability to throw out dex boosting rage.
How do you get urban onto a skald?
I've been out of the heavier bits of archetypes for a bit and I don't remember this at all, and a quick scan didn't show me Urban Skald (outside of a thing that I made for a friend once.
EDIT: HAH! Literally found it immediately after I posted here.
>insert amused face-palm here<
:D
This might be a bit late, but a Cleric(Evangelist) is bard-like with Sermonic Performance (=Bardic Inspiration) and is a 9-level caster.
While bards can use CLW wands, condition removal is tougher. Clerics, especially with open spell slots, are the king of condition removal. They also make good jack-of-all-trades. They don't do skills as well, but can sometimes uses spells instead.
Given your party's limited casting, switching your bard to a cleric gives a big bonus, and can also stack combat buffs.
/cevah
Instead of plain bard you could go urban skald as well, you'd have access to that spell, AND the ability to throw out dex boosting rage.How do you get urban onto a skald?
I've been out of the heavier bits of archetypes for a bit and I don't remember this at all, and a quick scan didn't show me Urban Skald (outside of a thing that I made for a friend once.
EDIT: HAH! Literally found it immediately after I posted here.
>insert amused face-palm here<
:D
I was never really a fan of bard for the longest time but as of teamwork feats, shared training and dwarven scholar i'm really deep diving the potential. Teamwork feats are effective even when people divert from "standard" builds to add them if the party is cooperative and taking the same ones. I'm thinking a party of 4 standardly built characters with a 5th handing out half a dozen teamwork feats even just for survivability and mobility cranks the party as a whole to 11 without even reaching into rube goldberg style builds and edge case rulings.