hey everyone!
I am planning on running this adventure path starting this saturday. something about the blanket ignoring of the -2 penalty to use a lethal weapon to cause nonlethal damage has been bugging me. I was just wondering how other people are handling it.
below is how I plan on handling it. I may adjust based on if I like some of your ideas.
so, all PCs will have their normal gear but will also be issued some nonlethal weapons, either saps, batons, or the like. using their lethal weapons to cause nonlethal works as normal, but they have options now. in some situations they may feel their lives are in danger and switch to their real weapons, and that makes sense to me. but their precinct still wants people brought in alive. if they kill the criminal, they only receive half their loot, as the precinct will take the rest to pay for body disposal and other issues. unless the precinct decides that it was unwarranted, then they will receive nothing in compensation.
My hope is that this encourages them to find a nonlethal option without hamstringing them.
Have you read through the GM Reference thread?
There are a lot of discussion there about how to handle this issue and also in the Player's Guide thread
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Personally, I just invented a General Feat for dealing nonlethal with weapons at no penalty and would give it out free in this AP specifically, and then made the existing wizard Class Feat Nonlethal Spell a free action and likewise would give it out free to all spellcasters specifically in this AP.
In both cases, the idea is that these are options that exist in the world and can be picked up in other games, but Edgewatch agents get them for free as part of their training. Which seems reasonable enough.
It is a something of a conundrum I've been trying to figure out in my head. Just waiving the penalty doesn't seem right to me, as I want the decision to not kill people be a deliberate choice, and suffering the penalty means the player has an understanding of the difficulty they're undertaking. Fighting to subdue someone is much more difficult than lethal options.However, the party has been trained by the Watch to do their job at a basic level of proficiency. That must include something on subduing suspects, but just giving everyone a feat to negate that penalty keeps us on the same problem. Maybe a feat that trains in athletics and provides grapple options, so they can pin and manacle their suspects more easily and gives access and proficiency in the nonlethal weapons.
I like this and will combine it with my approach. thanks for the input!
Have you read through the GM Reference thread?
There are a lot of discussion there about how to handle this issue and also in the Player's Guide thread
I have, I jumped into there first but it is a lot of point, counterpoint conversations in the search. so I posted here.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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I gave my players magical badges that turn all their damage into non lethal (unless the target of the attack is immune). It works for spells and alchemical items too.
I didn’t want it to be a choice for the PCs—the city doesn’t want its watch personnel murdering people, so they equip them with items to prevent that from happening.
Of course, they’ll probably have to turn in their badges in book 5, which might make that book interesting, and encourage them to think outside the box. .
thats a fair fix. I love putting my players in moral quandaries when ever possible. so, making them choose what to do, gives them more options, and lets me giggle more.
this is exactly what I ended up with:
"You will all get the following as a free first level feat.
"Watch Training [feat]
-Unique
-Prerequisites Agent of the Edgewatch
-You are trained by the precinct to better capture criminals and minimize unnecessary death. You gain training in either Athletics or Diplomacy skills, if you have both already you may select a free skill. You are also trained in the following nonlethal weapons if you are not already: Blowgun, Bola, Monkey's Fist, Nightstick, Sap, and Whip."
That being said you will not be ignoring the -2 penalty for using lethal weapons to deal nonlethal damage. There are several class options, archetype options, spells, feats, and magic items out there that help mitigate this penalty. Find and utilize them as you desire.
Remember also, that the last hit that brings the enemy to 0 hp is the one that matters, so if it is a lethal weapon, they die, if a nonlethal weapon they fall unconscious. the decision will be yours on how to handle each situation.
Another thing to consider is that the precinct still wants people brought in alive. if you kill the criminal, you will only receive half their loot, as the precinct will take the rest to pay for body disposal and other issues that may arise. However, if the precinct decides that the death was unwarranted, then you will receive nothing in compensation. or worse yet if they believe this was a malicious act."
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I created an Archetype (for which I'm looking for feedback) to solve this conundrum. It's called Nonlethalist, and I'm giving the dedication for free to everyone, and whoever wants to can invest in becoming better with it.
I created an Archetype (for which I'm looking for feedback) to solve this conundrum. It's called Nonlethalist, and I'm giving the dedication for free to everyone, and whoever wants to can invest in becoming better with it.
Spellcasters only getting the option to be nonlethal at level 6 is rough, they won't be able to properly engage in combat with the rest of the party when trying to subdue people instead of incinerating them. Unless, of course, the wizard is just beating people with a nightstick until level 6 and then can finally whip out the spellbook.
I honestly would not even bother looking at spellcasters in this situation if I were a player.
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I created an Archetype (for which I'm looking for feedback) to solve this conundrum. It's called Nonlethalist, and I'm giving the dedication for free to everyone, and whoever wants to can invest in becoming better with it.
Spellcasters only getting the option to be nonlethal at level 6 is rough, they won't be able to properly engage in combat with the rest of the party when trying to subdue people instead of incinerating them. Unless, of course, the wizard is just beating people with a nightstick until level 4 and then can finally whip out the spellbook. [Plus a fun other feat tax at level 6 to do it without holding perfectly still which is fun.]
I honestly would not even bother looking at spellcasters in this situation if I were a player.
Or focused on non-damage spells - buffs or debuffs.
Also, the basic dedication allows non-lethal cantrips and you can take Nonlethal Spell at 4, so it's not quite that bad.
So unless I wanted to play a buff/debuff caster, I wouldn't play a caster then.
Unless I died past the level to get nonlethal spell and made a new character with it. Cantrips are fine, I like how much better they are than PF1 cantrips, but I've never been a fan of applying restrictions like this. The only time I can even think of being okay with restricting a class choice in an AP is banning Antipaladin from Wrath of the Righteous, and even then if a player really wanted it I'd try to make it work story-wise for them.
Sure, it seems "not that bad", but when the free archetype is only applying to your cantrips, while martials are able to continue to use their full class abilities with only slight weapon restrictions[although those get buffed damage dice or a nice free deadly d8 added on] at all levels and you're only able to fully use all your stuff either past level 4[after taking ANOTHER feat for nonlethal spell] or play a specific type of caster you might not want to feels gross to me.
Then again, I have a different playstyle and table than others, so this is just like....my opinion, man.
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So unless I wanted to play a buff/debuff caster, I wouldn't play a caster then.
Well, if your player insist on playing a mass-destruction nuker maybe this is not an AP for them. There are plenty of very effective non-lethal spells in the game already. Having a caster with Charm, Command, Grease, Sleep, Color Spray, Ray of E., etc, etc, in a squad would be extremely beneficial for a non-lethal approach.
In my view, imposing limits on what PC choices you allow in an AP just adds to the fun. And having the PCs be mindful of what kind of damage they deal when solving many encounters is, for me, a big appeal for this AP and a welcome change from the usual mass slaughter in Pathfinder/DnD.
Also, I have no problem showing an entitled player, that insists in taking the cheap road to snowflakedom by going against the theme of the AP, where the door is. That is in my experience a sign of a problematic player that will cause other problems down the line.
SandersonTavares' archetype looks awesome and I will use it for sure when I GM this. Thanks mate!
Yeah well thinking some more on this I might just make the non-lethal aspect an in-world issue instead of a mechanical one. Yes my players won't be able to chain lightning/cleave/sneak attack/megadeth their way through this AP as usual. But (as opposed to RL) there's 100% perfectly safe and powerful ways in Golarion to defeat opponents without killing them. And the law should take that into account.
Yes, you get a penalty dealing non-lethal and/or have to chose special weapons/spells/abilities. Yes, your opponents might not show you the same courtesy. But it's hard to be good, easy to be bad.
The penalty for killing the suspects would be turning the PC into an NPC and sending them off screen (to court and then to jail), unless the mitigating circumstances would be extreme. ("Why did you turn the suspects into ashes instead of casting Hypnotic Pattern to apprehend them?" "'Cos that's not my build, your honor").
That would make for a new challenge for my players for sure, who usually waltz through most encounters even after I've turned them up to 11, and might make for a more cerebral, mature campaign (who I'm I kidding, they'll find some way).
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It is reasonable though to make some accommodation. I wouldn't go as far as the PG rule, but I also wouldn't use your changes, which seem to make it harder to go non-lethal.I'm also not really happy with approaches that gate non-lethal options behind level dependent feats - since it's going to be required of PCs even at the start. I don't think it should be hard at first, then easier when they're more powerful.
It's a hard line to draw. I wouldn't actually want non-lethal to make the adventure more challenging: I assume it's well balanced as is, but I also would want players to run characters reasonably designed to be non-lethal. Or at least not so blatantly lethal that it breaks our sense of disbelief to handwave the lethality away.
The main problem IS that it's expected to be fully non-lethal from level 1, and all the base non-lethal options are level gated away.
So there's a bit of a blanket rule.
Like I said, my table plays differently, and I prefer not to arbitrarily restrict builds when there are ways to work them in and reflavor them other than shoving more feat taxes on and making them roll new characters if they mess up.
Well, if your player insist on playing a mass-destruction nuker maybe this is not an AP for them. There are plenty of very effective non-lethal spells in the game already. Having a caster with Charm, Command, Grease, Sleep, Color Spray, Ray of E., etc, etc, in a squad would be extremely beneficial for a non-lethal approach.
I know there are quite a few people on this forum that find the use of mind-altering magic to be a bit of an...unpleasant choice in this type of AP.
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Stuff
I was mostly referring to GMs that expect their players to be non-lethal from the get-go and will punish them if they are not.
Not the balance of the AP in general.
AS a little fix-it, here's my take on the non-lethal conundrum:
Everyone is trained to deal non-lethal damage with weapons and strikes, without penalties.
Spells, poisons alchemical items and the such are not afected by this, and deal damage.
On top of it, with weapons, a critical hit sends the target to dying 2 immediately.
This gives the agents an incentive to actually try to use first aid and healing spells to prevent criminals from dying... or not...
As well, there is a ratfolk toxicologist of norgorber in the party, and his poisons are very problematic because they will increase the dying value VERY FAST.
As per the AP guidelines, I make the players aware that they will get more bounty and more EXP if they do not kill their targets.
This all creates a very fun encoutner challenge of ''Don't kill the criminals'' which translates very well whent ehre is a shift to ''killable''targets such as the oozes and undead in the catacombs, where the agents can straight up go all out and not care for the life of the other party.
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# If you make a lethal attack against a NPC or monster and it loses all its remaining hit points from that attack, it simply dies unless the GM decides it gets to use the Dying rules.
# Attacks with the nonlethal trait are automatically nonlethal.
# Changing an attack from lethal to non-lethal (or vice versa) carries the standard -2 penalty, except for Monks.That's the CRB RAW. Now the changes:
Bludgeoning, cold and mental damage
Only attacks dealing bludgeoning, cold or mental damage can be changed from lethal to non-lethal.You still need to take the -2 even if you use a club or nightstick. But when you use a sword or axe or Produce Flame, you can't deal nonlethal at all*.
....
Interesting concept of Bloodied and Battered. It certainly makes use of lethal force more impact in the game. I However, feel like it is possible to strike using piercing and slashing without them necessarily being lethal, so I have trouble imagining that part of it.
While the battered condition certainly makes it harder to mix nonlethal and lethal strikes, and take someone alive, I see that can add an interesting dynamic to it. However, I feel like your further limitation from original RAW on being able to do non-lethal damage is a bit too much.
What if rather than making it impossible to do non-lethal damage damage with non-bludgeoning or non-cold in general, what if you only lost the ability to convert damage to non-lethal when someone is battered? When they are badly hurt already, use of lethal weapons becomes highly risky.
For instance, it seems like if someone uses an attack that is naively non-lethal, such as Daze, that it shouldn't kill them, even if they are battered.
Or alternately, if Battered, and the target taken down via non-lethal damage, have the target fall to dying based on the attack. [meaning if you want to take them alive, you would have to do first aid, to save them]
Additionally, you could make the guard, due to training only take a -1 to hit when converting a lethal attack to a non-lethal. That would leave it as a more impact-full choice, as you take a slight penalty, but not as much as normally. This also however would make choosing an actual native non-lethal weapon have extra value in the game.
Thank you Loreguard.
Let's first discuss your aims, what you want out of any rules change.
There's a spectrum here:
From merely objecting to Paizo's rule in the AoE player's guide, which trivializes the use of force entirely (since you can now Fireball an entire crowd even if you only want the single hiding cultist)
To making the choice to switch to nonlethal a real profound choice you don't make lightly.
To making characters actually look at AoE weapons such as the nightstick and seriously consider using them.
I'm in this last camp. I would want to avoid the situation where the constabulary hands out government issue nightsticks, but players instantly ditching them for the longswords and greataxes and whatnot.
Just saying "you must patrol in regulation outfit and you must use regulation weaponry" feels unsatisfactory. I don't want to foist subpar weapons onto my characters.
I want the rules reflect and justify why these weapons exist. I want the rules to transform these weapons into actually good weapons for their intended use.
And to do so, a player can't just "use the blunt end" of their axe. If they're hunting down a creature lower level than themselves the following penalties just aren't enough:
take a -2 penalty
use a d4 damage dieA Barbarian would STILL want to use a 3d4 greataxe with all her massive damage bonuses.
What I want is to impact how players build their characters, so they are tempted to actually specialize in weapons dealing blunt/nonlethal damage.
I would like to point out that this is a worthwhile goal, and also makes the transition to non civilian areas (such as the catacombs, the irorium bathhouse or Harrowland) that much more exciting.
''S$~# just got real, the barb has a greataxe now, let's wreck some s#~~''
For my group, all I changed was to apply PC dying rules to NPCs. That allows my players to deal lethal damage until the last hit or try to save the enemy combatants after they fall down (which comes at the expense of actions that could have been used on ending the fight). So far they have managed to mostly avoid killing, in part due to the cleric who has stabilize prepared on a daily basis. (They couldn't save a couple of hyenas in the zoo and killed the gelatinous cube, ghouls and vargouilles in the Undercity.)
Are there any pitfalls I'm not seeing in this approach? It seems to me that this is the best of both worlds, meaning I don't restrict my PCs too much but at the same time being nonlethal is not trivially easy to achieve either. I would appreciate any advice or feedback.
It's additional bookkeeping, but not substantially more than was frequently needed for 1E so that seems like a pretty good solution to me!
If anyone is interested in a magical solution to this problem, I describe the one I'm using here.
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Thanks for the vote of confidence, GreatGraySkwid. By the way, I love your magical badge solution (although it's definitely not for my game, I am depicting the Edgewatch as a shoestring operation that doesn't even provide basic equipment to the agents, let alone fancy magical badges powered by an artefact).
PS: I had seen that comment you wrote before I started my campaign and it certainly has influenced how I ran some things, like Pratchett and the pagoda!
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Seeing this thread pop up anew, I figured I could as well throw my own hat in the ring.
My group being relatively new to Pathfinder, and all brand new to 2nd edition, I decided to merely apply the normal lethality rules, to use the dying/wounded conditions for NPCs, and to add to the Pacifying weapon property rune the abiliy to deal nonlethal damage without any penalty to the roll.
Simplicity & cool factor went first, I most wanted to add as little complexity as possible for the players.