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If we want "crit fish with fortune effects to get crits on spiking spells" to be a basic thing that the Magus does, it should probably be build into the chassis or at least a Magus feat, rather than something that's encoded in a specific item.
Like "Fortunate SpellStrike" letting you roll twice on a discharging strike would 100% be a feat people would take.
Having a Gish needing a round to buff himself at the start of combat isnt something new, nor is it something that necessarily has to change.
Having a buff round in the start of combat is also negates the issue of distance, since that means that you need to be within striding distance on round 2, not on round 1, which is certainly more easy.
Overly relying on a singular piece of gear does make it seem like a tax though, and this is not something i'm fond to start seeing in PF2.
AS ONE approach? it's cool to exist. As the ONLY approach? Nope.
The base magus could always just charge first, and then buff themselves while full-attacking. Or spend one defensive spell ahead of time (invisibility or mirror image) and then cast the rest after closing. Similar to Warpriest being able to self-buff while doing other things.
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I am confused as to where the idea that a magus has not always been a crit fisher is coming from. I can't even remember seeing a magus that didn't use an 18-20 crit weapon.
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The argument to use Hero Point on your Spell roll is...well bad.
This doesn't address the issue, it shows how much of a problem it is. "It works better if you use this very precious ressource that most characters keep to save their life on it!"
The Magus being a crit fisher in the past isn't the issue, even without critting the magus was working fine. Crit fishing was just the "optimal" way to play it. It didn't prevent me from playing a bastard sword magus.
Here, critting is way, way too important. It's litteraly a condition for your spells to hit. Critting in 2E works way differently from 1E, it's not just based on a lucky roll, there is no threat range on weapons. It's nat20 or overwhelmingly crushing the ennemy's AC. Something that you mostly do on mooks. So yeah, the Magus will be great at killing low level ennemies. Yeepee
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I am confused as to where the idea that a magus has not always been a crit fisher is coming from. I can't even remember seeing a magus that didn't use an 18-20 crit weapon.
You remember one particular build out of hundreds which took over as the face of Magus for being overbearingly powerful compared to many other builds. I think this is exactly the kind of design 2e wants to avoid, where one class build takes over the entire class, and any alternatives are discarded or even forgotten about.
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By level 13 every magus should have a 10% crit chance with their weapon on any enemy they attack. They can get the keen rune as a focus power after all. I agree that it is a problem if all magus use a staff of divination as their weapon because it spikes their damage potential. Taking the benefits of true strike away are nearly impossible though, so it is probably better to build it more into the class through feat options, making the staff only one way to exploit it.
The biggest problem with the keen rune is that it only helps when you can't manipulate the math enough in your favor to crit on a 18 or better, which, by level 13 is actually pretty difficult. +2 status bonuses to attack are pretty easy to come by by level 13 and then flanking combine to give a pretty massive shift.
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By level 13 every magus should have a 10% crit chance with their weapon on any enemy they attack. They can get the keen rune as a focus power after all. I agree that it is a problem if all magus use a staff of divination as their weapon because it spikes their damage potential. Taking the benefits of true strike away are nearly impossible though, so it is probably better to build it more into the class through feat options, making the staff only one way to exploit it.Who cares if it gets more benefit out of True Strike? You're looking at a 2 turn set up to get use out of that unless you're hasted which presents its own action economy issues and spell investment? If you're spending multiple turns to set up a combo, then yeah it should BE strong. Right now it's not strong enough to warrant that, it's frustrating and unfun, and it feels unsatisfying and clunky to use.
Taking two turns to set up a high probability crit on the weapon strike with a top level spell slot that does nasty things is absolutely worth it and fun.
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Taking the benefits of true strike away are nearly impossible though.
It is nowhere near as hard as you claim it to be. All you need is to give Striking Spell the Fortune Trait. That's exactly what happened to the Investigator's Devise a Stratagem.
In fact, it is probably the best way to go to prevent True Strike abuse and Hero Point abuse.| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
They need to remove the critical effect and give it something that scales better and not so explosively.
So you have a class that is satisfying to play at all levels of play and doesn't need to be held back due to trying to keep balance at high levels of teamwork and all the magical gear you could want.
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Taking two turns to set up a high probability crit on the weapon strike with a top level spell slot that does nasty things is absolutely worth it and fun.By level 13 every magus should have a 10% crit chance with their weapon on any enemy they attack. They can get the keen rune as a focus power after all. I agree that it is a problem if all magus use a staff of divination as their weapon because it spikes their damage potential. Taking the benefits of true strike away are nearly impossible though, so it is probably better to build it more into the class through feat options, making the staff only one way to exploit it.Who cares if it gets more benefit out of True Strike? You're looking at a 2 turn set up to get use out of that unless you're hasted which presents its own action economy issues and spell investment? If you're spending multiple turns to set up a combo, then yeah it should BE strong. Right now it's not strong enough to warrant that, it's frustrating and unfun, and it feels unsatisfying and clunky to use.
It's fun to you. It's worth it to you.
Giving spell strike the fortune effect wouldn't prevent the strike action from benefiting from true strike. It would have to fold the attack into the action.
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Taking two turns to set up a high probability crit on the weapon strike with a top level spell slot that does nasty things is absolutely worth it and fun.
That would be fine if it was a way to play the class, rather than the only way to play the class.
Frankly, I'd prefer if the crit-fishing aspect got stuck in one of the sub-classes, and the free stride (or other action economy) moved into the default ability list.
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Giving spell strike the fortune effect wouldn't prevent the strike action from benefiting from true strike. It would have to fold the attack into the action.
You can never have more than one fortune effect alter a single roll.
Striking Spell is definitely altering the Strike roll made to discharge the spell. Namely, by giving it a special critical effect it wouldn't have if it were a normal roll. Therefore, since the Strike is already altered by one Fortune effect, it cannot be altered by another.
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It's fun to you. It's worth it to you.Taking two turns to set up a high probability crit on the weapon strike with a top level spell slot that does nasty things is absolutely worth it and fun.By level 13 every magus should have a 10% crit chance with their weapon on any enemy they attack. They can get the keen rune as a focus power after all. I agree that it is a problem if all magus use a staff of divination as their weapon because it spikes their damage potential. Taking the benefits of true strike away are nearly impossible though, so it is probably better to build it more into the class through feat options, making the staff only one way to exploit it.Who cares if it gets more benefit out of True Strike? You're looking at a 2 turn set up to get use out of that unless you're hasted which presents its own action economy issues and spell investment? If you're spending multiple turns to set up a combo, then yeah it should BE strong. Right now it's not strong enough to warrant that, it's frustrating and unfun, and it feels unsatisfying and clunky to use.
Apparently Logan Bonner saw something in it too, since he is taking lead on its development.
The Magus needs more way to set up his actions.
Bring back feats like Riving Strike, that would also be beneficial to other spellcasters in the team.
Riving Strike: 2 actions
You cut down in the ennemy's magical resistances. Make a strike, on a success the ennemy suffers a -2 penalty on saving throws against magical effects until the end of your next turn. -4 if the Strike was a critical hit
Why not a very high level upgrade even
Rend Defenses: 2 or 3 actions
You rend the magical resistances of the ennemy. Make a strike, on a success, reduces the resistances of that ennemy by half your level until the end of your next turn. On a critical success, reduce them by your level.
Random examples but that should be the way Magus would setup their nova, by using in-class abilities.
Out of class abilities are options, bonuses, not primary tools. You CAN build your magus around them but you shouldn't HAVE too.
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Apparently Logan Bonner saw something in it too, since he is taking lead on its development.It's fun to you. It's worth it to you.Taking two turns to set up a high probability crit on the weapon strike with a top level spell slot that does nasty things is absolutely worth it and fun.By level 13 every magus should have a 10% crit chance with their weapon on any enemy they attack. They can get the keen rune as a focus power after all. I agree that it is a problem if all magus use a staff of divination as their weapon because it spikes their damage potential. Taking the benefits of true strike away are nearly impossible though, so it is probably better to build it more into the class through feat options, making the staff only one way to exploit it.Who cares if it gets more benefit out of True Strike? You're looking at a 2 turn set up to get use out of that unless you're hasted which presents its own action economy issues and spell investment? If you're spending multiple turns to set up a combo, then yeah it should BE strong. Right now it's not strong enough to warrant that, it's frustrating and unfun, and it feels unsatisfying and clunky to use.
I don't know who that is. And regardless of who it is. This is play test and I gaurantee you most players want something that first and foremost. Works out of the box.
Right now it doesn't, and this critical effect is taking up valuable budget space while warping it's performance in a poor way.
I do hope that the next play test they drop it and give us a Magus that is fun to play for more than the hyper optimal magic equipment loaded gambling style player.
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Apparently Logan Bonner saw something in it too, since he is taking lead on its development.It's fun to you. It's worth it to you.Taking two turns to set up a high probability crit on the weapon strike with a top level spell slot that does nasty things is absolutely worth it and fun.By level 13 every magus should have a 10% crit chance with their weapon on any enemy they attack. They can get the keen rune as a focus power after all. I agree that it is a problem if all magus use a staff of divination as their weapon because it spikes their damage potential. Taking the benefits of true strike away are nearly impossible though, so it is probably better to build it more into the class through feat options, making the staff only one way to exploit it.Who cares if it gets more benefit out of True Strike? You're looking at a 2 turn set up to get use out of that unless you're hasted which presents its own action economy issues and spell investment? If you're spending multiple turns to set up a combo, then yeah it should BE strong. Right now it's not strong enough to warrant that, it's frustrating and unfun, and it feels unsatisfying and clunky to use.
Very true. And the playtest is the place to air the yeahs and nays. I'm very much nay on this spellstrike
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The argument to use Hero Point on your Spell roll is...well bad.
This doesn't address the issue, it shows how much of a problem it is. "It works better if you use this very precious ressource that most characters keep to save their life on it!"The Magus being a crit fisher in the past isn't the issue, even without critting the magus was working fine. Crit fishing was just the "optimal" way to play it. It didn't prevent me from playing a bastard sword magus.
Here, critting is way, way too important. It's litteraly a condition for your spells to hit. Critting in 2E works way differently from 1E, it's not just based on a lucky roll, there is no threat range on weapons. It's nat20 or overwhelmingly crushing the ennemy's AC. Something that you mostly do on mooks. So yeah, the Magus will be great at killing low level ennemies. Yeepee
The more I participate in this discussion and the more I try to find a way to understand this class, the more I get the feeling that it shares the same problems as the initial Investigator in that you had to succeed at a roll (Study Suspect) to then and only then be able to get your combat thing going (the actual attack).
The way I see it, Magus is in desperate need of something that unlocks its true potential like Devise a Stratagem did it for the Investigator
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Apparently Logan Bonner saw something in it too, since he is taking lead on its development.It's fun to you. It's worth it to you.Taking two turns to set up a high probability crit on the weapon strike with a top level spell slot that does nasty things is absolutely worth it and fun.By level 13 every magus should have a 10% crit chance with their weapon on any enemy they attack. They can get the keen rune as a focus power after all. I agree that it is a problem if all magus use a staff of divination as their weapon because it spikes their damage potential. Taking the benefits of true strike away are nearly impossible though, so it is probably better to build it more into the class through feat options, making the staff only one way to exploit it.Who cares if it gets more benefit out of True Strike? You're looking at a 2 turn set up to get use out of that unless you're hasted which presents its own action economy issues and spell investment? If you're spending multiple turns to set up a combo, then yeah it should BE strong. Right now it's not strong enough to warrant that, it's frustrating and unfun, and it feels unsatisfying and clunky to use.
Did he, or did he add a crit rider to an action without expecting all the ramifications? We can't know either way.
And besides, the whole point of the playtest is for people to give their opinions on this kind of thing.For me, having seen the abuses it can lead to and the risk of chaining the whole class down to one build, it's definitely a miss.
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Apparently Logan Bonner saw something in it too, since he is taking lead on its development.It's fun to you. It's worth it to you.Taking two turns to set up a high probability crit on the weapon strike with a top level spell slot that does nasty things is absolutely worth it and fun.By level 13 every magus should have a 10% crit chance with their weapon on any enemy they attack. They can get the keen rune as a focus power after all. I agree that it is a problem if all magus use a staff of divination as their weapon because it spikes their damage potential. Taking the benefits of true strike away are nearly impossible though, so it is probably better to build it more into the class through feat options, making the staff only one way to exploit it.Who cares if it gets more benefit out of True Strike? You're looking at a 2 turn set up to get use out of that unless you're hasted which presents its own action economy issues and spell investment? If you're spending multiple turns to set up a combo, then yeah it should BE strong. Right now it's not strong enough to warrant that, it's frustrating and unfun, and it feels unsatisfying and clunky to use.
Not to repeat my other post, but by this line of thought we should have just been content with Studied Strike and Study Suspect with the Investigator.
The playtest is essential so that we can get things that improve upon the initial ideas like Devise a Stratagem
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Giving spell strike the fortune effect wouldn't prevent the strike action from benefiting from true strike. It would have to fold the attack into the action.
Wait, weren't you arguing before that combining the spell attack roll into the weapon attack roll would be too strong specifically because of how it would combine with True Strike? Wouldn't doing both solve that particular problem?
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The more I participate in this discussion and the more I try to find a way to understand this class, the more I get the feeling that it shares the same problems as the initial Investigator in that you had to succeed at a roll (Study Suspect) to then and only then be able to get your combat thing going (the actual attack).
The way I see it, Magus is in desperate need of something that unlocks its true potential like Devise a Stratagem did it for the Investigator
Funny enough, Devise a Stratagem would actually be quite strong in the hands of a Magus (via multi-class).
Start off the turn with a free Devise (or spend an action if you're hasted).If you crit, cast your biggest spell via Striking Spell, and then use your pre-gen attack roll to crit on the melee strike to deliver it. Which then bumps the Spell's success level up by one.
Now it suddenly feels much better, since you've saved your limited resource (spell slots) for a situation in which they will be very effective.
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The more I participate in this discussion and the more I try to find a way to understand this class, the more I get the feeling that it shares the same problems as the initial Investigator in that you had to succeed at a roll (Study Suspect) to then and only then be able to get your combat thing going (the actual attack).
The way I see it, Magus is in desperate need of something that unlocks its true potential like Devise a Stratagem did it for the Investigator
Funny enough, Devise a Stratagem would actually be quite strong in the hands of a Magus (via multi-class).
Start off the turn with a free Devise (or spend an action if you're hasted).
If you crit, cast your biggest spell via Striking Spell, and then use your pre-gen attack roll to crit on the melee strike to deliver it. Which then bumps the Spell's success level up by one.Now it suddenly feels much better, since you've saved your limited resource (spell slots) for a situation in which they will be very effective.
Yeah. And, to me, that just illustrates the oddity around which the spell striking mechanic is currently built.
...Hm. It's not elegant, but that could actually be a good solution. It makes it a lot less bad anyway, in theory. This is something I'd actually wanna see tested in actual play. I think it would really depend on how often you can get the free devise vs the 1 action version.The more I participate in this discussion and the more I try to find a way to understand this class, the more I get the feeling that it shares the same problems as the initial Investigator in that you had to succeed at a roll (Study Suspect) to then and only then be able to get your combat thing going (the actual attack).
The way I see it, Magus is in desperate need of something that unlocks its true potential like Devise a Stratagem did it for the Investigator
Funny enough, Devise a Stratagem would actually be quite strong in the hands of a Magus (via multi-class).
Start off the turn with a free Devise (or spend an action if you're hasted).
If you crit, cast your biggest spell via Striking Spell, and then use your pre-gen attack roll to crit on the melee strike to deliver it. Which then bumps the Spell's success level up by one.Now it suddenly feels much better, since you've saved your limited resource (spell slots) for a situation in which they will be very effective.
One way to do it would be via a mid-level human with the free 9th level dedication feat. Although, if you're building up from scratch, it wouldn't go online until at least level 4.
...Hm. It's not elegant, but that could actually be a good solution. It makes it a lot less bad anyway, in theory. This is something I'd actually wanna see tested in actual play. I think it would really depend on how often you can get the free devise vs the 1 action version.
We already see Investigators taking Eldritch Archer for this exact mechanic. I can definitely see Investigators taking Magus Dedication for the same thing without having to be ranged. Or a Magus taking Investigator dedication.
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I'd expect Investigator + Magus to go pretty well regardless of what shape Magus ends up taking, given the synergies. Goes wonderfully thematically, too, and sounds fun as hell. I'm hoping for a magic themed Investigator Methodology in this book tbh, maybe even one that works like Eldritch Trickster but gives (or at least allows) the Magus archetype.The more I participate in this discussion and the more I try to find a way to understand this class, the more I get the feeling that it shares the same problems as the initial Investigator in that you had to succeed at a roll (Study Suspect) to then and only then be able to get your combat thing going (the actual attack).
The way I see it, Magus is in desperate need of something that unlocks its true potential like Devise a Stratagem did it for the Investigator
Funny enough, Devise a Stratagem would actually be quite strong in the hands of a Magus (via multi-class).
Start off the turn with a free Devise (or spend an action if you're hasted).
If you crit, cast your biggest spell via Striking Spell, and then use your pre-gen attack roll to crit on the melee strike to deliver it. Which then bumps the Spell's success level up by one.Now it suddenly feels much better, since you've saved your limited resource (spell slots) for a situation in which they will be very effective.
I really hope not, that just sounds like a bunch of hoops for basic functionality. How many free actions must we throw at it before we admit the Rube Goldberg gish is fundamentally missing the Arcane Mark?
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Has it been confirmed that you can definitely still cast 1st level spells with no 1st level spellslots?
It seems to just get waved away in this thread, but the books are inconclusive on if it's possible to put a 1st level spell in a 5th level slot and not have it be a 5th level spell.
(It may be that it's never clarified that you can because until now there was no reason why you would want to, but until it is clarified it's not a non-issue).
Besides that... I guess the 4-round adventuring day is the new 5 minutes?
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The other problem is that Keen is by default an uncommon option. That means that you either have to choose that specific feat to get access, or ask the GM to include it in the game. That feels like a big departure from the lack of feat taxes that PF2E is striving for if an uncommon option is becoming part of a character's expected math. The same can be said of a lot of the options in this theoretical build.By level 13 every magus should have a 10% crit chance with their weapon on any enemy they attack. They can get the keen rune as a focus power after all. I agree that it is a problem if all magus use a staff of divination as their weapon because it spikes their damage potential. Taking the benefits of true strike away are nearly impossible though, so it is probably better to build it more into the class through feat options, making the staff only one way to exploit it.
The biggest problem with the keen rune is that it only helps when you can't manipulate the math enough in your favor to crit on a 18 or better, which, by level 13 is actually pretty difficult. +2 status bonuses to attack are pretty easy to come by by level 13 and then flanking combine to give a pretty massive shift.
Runic Impression is a strong option even without granting you Keen, but it not some obscure element that is difficult to figure out. Honestly, the most difficult part of runic impression is competing with greater elemental runes which are also incredible with how good the Magus can be a getting critical hits. It has nothing to do with being a feat tax, it is just a very strong option that lets you not be so worried about picking up a level 6 staff by 13th level. Getting a Keen rune on your own, for a weapon would be difficult but not picking it up for the magus.
This is not some theoretical build, this was me looking at commonly available options for the 13th level magus that everyone is talking about being horribly useless because their spell DC and attack are so much lower than their weapon attack modifier.My whole point in looking so closely at this was to point out that the way Striking spell works, as long as your weapon attack is keeping up with a full martial, you are in very good shape for doing fun things with your spells, even the base proficiency looks low. It gets really good when you can get your weapon attack up to criting 25% of the time, something that is not terribly difficult, and it gets really fun when you find a way to throw true strike on it.
To me, Magus out of the box is a level 1 magus. Spell strike is perfectly fine at level 1, even without having regular access to true strike, something that won't happen until level 7ish, which is also where the proficiency split starts to kick in.
I really like the idea of the two handed magus getting a free truestrike rider on their striking spell, making the staff of divination useless to them and letting them do the same thing a sliding magus can do, only with a 2 handed weapon, but not being able to move as a part of the set up.
Has it been confirmed that you can definitely still cast 1st level spells with no 1st level spellslots?
It seems to just get waved away in this thread, but the books are inconclusive on if it's possible to put a 1st level spell in a 5th level slot and not have it be a 5th level spell.
(It may be that it's never clarified that you can because until now there was no reason why you would want to, but until it is clarified it's not a non-issue).Besides that... I guess the 4-round adventuring day is the new 5 minutes?
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=273
Both prepared and spontaneous spellcasters can cast a spell at a higher spell level than that listed for the spell. This is called heightening the spell. A prepared spellcaster can heighten a spell by preparing it in a higher-level slot than its normal spell level, while a spontaneous spellcaster can heighten a spell by casting it using a higher-level spell slot, so long as they know the spell at that level (see Heightened Spontaneous Spells below). When you heighten your spell, the spell’s level increases to match the higher level of the spell slot you’ve prepared it in or used to cast it. This is useful for any spell, because some effects, such as counteracting, depend on the spell’s level.
In addition, many spells have additional specific benefits when they are heightened, such as increased damage. These extra benefits are described at the end of the spell’s stat block. Some heightened entries specify one or more levels at which the spell must be prepared or cast to gain these extra advantages. Each of these heightened entries states specifically which aspects of the spell change at the given level. Read the heightened entry only for the spell level you’re using or preparing; if its benefits are meant to include any of the effects of a lower-level heightened entry, those benefits will be included in the entry.
Other heightened entries give a number after a plus sign, indicating that heightening grants extra advantages over multiple levels. The listed effect applies for every increment of levels by which the spell is heightened above its lowest spell level, and the benefit is cumulative. For example, fireball says “Heightened (+1) The damage increases by 2d6.” Because fireball deals 6d6 fire damage at 3rd level, a 4th-level fireball would deal 8d6 fire damage, a 5th-level spell would deal 10d6 fire damage, and so on.
Seems pretty clear you can cast a 9th level Magic Weapon, it's just that it gains no benefit versus 1st level Magic Weapon.
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Has it been confirmed that you can definitely still cast 1st level spells with no 1st level spellslots?
It seems to just get waved away in this thread, but the books are inconclusive on if it's possible to put a 1st level spell in a 5th level slot and not have it be a 5th level spell.
(It may be that it's never clarified that you can because until now there was no reason why you would want to, but until it is clarified it's not a non-issue).Besides that... I guess the 4-round adventuring day is the new 5 minutes?
The magus arcane casting ability says nothing about losing the ability to cast 1st level spells, you just don't have slots for them. With a staff you don't need to use any spell slots to cast a spell. Would a wizard out of 1st level spell slots not be able to cast truestrike through a staff? of course not. People are reading into what "able to cast an appropriate level spell" means for no reason. 20th level magi are able to cast a 1st level spell through a scroll, a wand or a staff.
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Seems pretty clear you can cast a 9th level Magic Weapon, it's just that it gains no benefit versus 1st level Magic Weapon.Both prepared and spontaneous spellcasters can cast a spell at a higher spell level than that listed for the spell. This is called heightening the spell. A prepared spellcaster can heighten a spell by preparing it in a higher-level slot than its normal spell level, while a spontaneous spellcaster can heighten a spell by casting it using a higher-level spell slot, so long as they know the spell at that level (see Heightened Spontaneous Spells below). When you heighten your spell, the spell’s level increases to match the higher level of the spell slot you’ve prepared it in or used to cast it. This is useful for any spell, because some effects, such as counteracting, depend on the spell’s level.
In addition, many spells have additional specific benefits when they are heightened, such as increased damage. These extra benefits are described at the end of the spell’s stat block. Some heightened entries specify one or more levels at which the spell must be prepared or cast to gain these extra advantages. Each of these heightened entries states specifically which aspects of the spell change at the given level. Read the heightened entry only for the spell level you’re using or preparing; if its benefits are meant to include any of the effects of a lower-level heightened entry, those benefits will be included in the entry.
Other heightened entries give a number after a plus sign, indicating that heightening grants extra advantages over multiple levels. The listed effect applies for every increment of levels by which the spell is heightened above its lowest spell level, and the benefit is cumulative. For example, fireball says “Heightened (+1) The damage increases by 2d6.” Because fireball deals 6d6 fire damage at 3rd level, a 4th-level fireball would deal 8d6 fire damage, a 5th-level spell would deal 10d6 fire damage, and so on.
Sorry, should've been clearer.
I know you can prepare a 1st level spell in a 9th level slot and it'll cast as a 9th level spell, even if it gets no benefit for being a 9th level spell.I was asking if you can prepare a 1st level spell in a 9th level slot, and have it still count as a 1st level spell.
The books don't say you can, and if you can't cast 1st level spells, you can't cast True Strike from a staff.
The magus arcane casting ability says nothing about losing the ability to cast 1st level spells, you just don't have slots for them. With a staff you don't need to use any spell slots to cast a spell. Would a wizard out of 1st level spell slots not be able to cast truestrike through a staff? of course not. People are reading into what "able to cast an appropriate level spell" means for no reason. 20th level magi are able to cast a 1st level spell through a scroll, a wand or a staff.
This is spurious pedantry on a par with 'but the book doesn't say you can't take actions when you're dead!'.
If you don't have 1st level spell slots, you can't cast first level spells, unless you are able to cast spells as 1st level spells from higher level spell slots.
Sorry, should've been clearer.
I know you can prepare a 1st level spell in a 9th level slot and it'll cast as a 9th level spell, even if it gets no benefit for being a 9th level spell.
I was asking if you can prepare a 1st level spell in a 9th level slot, and have it still count as a 1st level spell.
The books don't say you can, and if you can't cast 1st level spells, you can't cast True Strike from a staff.
Ah, in that case the book seems equally clear, that you cannot.
I looked it up as a Sorcerer, to see if it was legal to up-cast a known spell into a higher level slot, without needing it to be a Signature spell.The only way in the book to cast a spell out of a slot is if the spell's level and the slot's level match. You can heighten the spell to match the slot, but it must be hightened by the rules.
It's not explicitly disallowed, but the rules only state that spell-level=slot level, and heighten lets you modify the spell's level.
Of course, even if you can't cast 1st level spells, you still count as being able to cast True Strike, just not a level 1 True Strike.
Where in this:
You study spells so you can combine them with your attacks or solve problems that martial might alone can’t handle. You can cast arcane spells using the Cast a Spell activity, and you can supply material, somatic, and verbal components when casting spells.
At 1st level, you can prepare one 1st-level spell and five cantrips each morning from the spells in your spellbook (page 5). Prepared spells remain available to you until you cast them or until you prepare your spells again. The number of spells you can prepare is called your spell slots.
As you increase in level as a magus, your number of spell slots and the highest level of spells you can cast from spell slots increase, shown in Table 1–2: Magus Spells per Day.
Some of your spells require you to attempt a spell attack roll to see how effective they are, or have your enemies roll against your spell DC (typically by attempting a saving throw). Your spell attack rolls and spell DCs use your Intelligence modifier. Details on calculating these statistics appear on page 447 of the Core Rulebook.
Do you read that you lose the ability to cast lower level spells? In fact the number of spells and your ability to cast spells of a certain level are two separate things in this description, and the wording "As you increase in level as a magus, your number of spell slots and the highest level of spells you can cast from spell slots increase, shown in Table 1–2: Magus Spells per Day" makes no mention that you are unable to cast spells of a lower level. You just don't have available spell slots for casting them, that doesn't mean you are suddenly incapable of casting the spell. Granted this is a playtest, so they may want to change the graphic presentation of the chart, but the text makes it clear the chart is only showing what spell slots you have, not what level spells you are capable of casting. You only gain the ability to cast spells of new levels as your character levels up. You never lose that ability.
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Of course, even if you can't cast 1st level spells, you still count as being able to cast True Strike, just not a level 1 True Strike.
Definitely.
Unfortunately the Staff of Divination holds True Strike as a 1st level spell, and casting from a staff requires you to be able to cast spells of the appropriate level.It's probably not the intent that the wonky spell progression locks you out of staff spells for levels you've grown out of, but I don't trust the class design enough to say it's definitely not.
Clarification is needed.
If it's something they let slide by, that's great and awful.
You're essentially going to have a bastard sword with a rune of 'here's a bunch of True Strikes and a few situationally useful spells a day', which would feel as mandatory as doubling rings for a dual-wielder.
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Do you read that you lose the ability to cast lower level spells? In fact the number of spells and your ability to cast spells of a certain level are two separate things in this description, and the wording "As you increase in level as a magus, your number of spell slots and the highest level of spells you can cast from spell slots increase, shown in Table 1–2: Magus Spells per Day" makes no mention that you are unable to cast spells of a lower level. You just don't have available spell slots for casting them, that doesn't mean you are suddenly incapable of casting the spell. Granted this is a playtest, so they may want to change the graphic presentation of the chart, but the text makes it clear the chart is only showing what spell slots you have, not what level spells you are capable of casting. You only gain the ability to cast spells of new levels as your character levels up. You never lose that ability.
Your spell slots are your ability to cast spells. That is literally their thing.
Losing your 1st level spell slots is losing the ability to cast 1st level spells, and I'm not particularly interested in engaging in a circular argument that amounts to "it doesn't say you can't cast 1st level spells, you just can't cast them."You're wrong, but you do you.
Whoa, sure is rough to have whole chapter of my spellbook going to ashes whenever I learn a new spell level eh?
Seriously, use some common sense too. If you know how to cast a 8th level spell, you know how to cast a 1st level one.
Spell slots are just "memory space" in the character's mind to keep the spells ready. The magus has less than the wizard and focuses on keeping what little space he has to hold as much power as possible.
Seriously, use some common sense too. If you know how to cast a 8th level spell, you know how to cast a 1st level one.
If you can't prepare a 1st level spell and don't have a 1st level spell, you can't Cast a Spell:
Core, Cast a Spell: "You cast a spell you have prepared or in your repertoire."
Magus: "The number of spells you can prepare is called your spell slots."
You LITERALLY don't know how anymore until you have a way to prepare a spell of that level again.
"the number of spells" not "the spells you know".
So what, a wizard needs a separate page on their spellbook for Shocking Grasp level 2?
Explain to me how someone who knows how to cast Wish wouldn't know how to cast Mage Armor.