I've been in 2 games with bards that mostly act like a buff bot and after casting 1 or 2 spells, don't have anything to do other than avoid combat. I really hate that. For our next game I'm thinking about making a bard that does things. I'm just not sure which way I want to go yet.
I've been mostly thinking about 2 different builds. One is a Desna worshiping Starknife wielding character focused on Cha with a decent amount of dex. I imagine at 1st level the character will be a front line melee type, and as the character gains levels lots of feats will get shoved into transitioning from melee to a short-ranged throwing character that still buffs the party and throws the occasional spell.
The second build I've been considering is... a really bad archer. Basically spend 2 feats to get Precise Shot and then spend every feat on being a better bard. The only reason for the bow is to take advantage of a Tuned Bowstring. I'm thinking about taking Dazzling Display so I can abuse intimidate and eventually Dirge of Doom to send a few opponents fleeing in fear.
So I'm looking for opinions on either of these builds, or your own suggestion for a pro-active bard that does things. There are a few things to keep in mind:
1) Must have Inspire Courage. I want to buff the group in combat, and have something else to do that is helpful.
2) Not just a buffer. I'm not spending actions to Aid Another. I want my actions to have a tangible effect on combat, not just provide a +4 bonus to someone else's actions. Spending 1 round to buff someone's non-critical action for 1 round is bad action economy.
3) Have a game plan for low levels. I figure the next campaign will start from level 1 and go to about 16. Even if your build is amazing at 13, I'll have to play it from 1 till your build kicks off.
4) I want to play a bard, so if I'm dipping out of bard it had better be for very good reasons. I'm not overly attached to bard spell casting, but the performance abilities are a focus.
If you're going an archer (and bards can be great archers) I thoroughly recommend 1 more feat - Rapid Shot. Inspire Courage is better if there are more attacks so get more attacks.
Another thing you could do here is get RIVING STRIKE to help the casters as well as the martials. You have to get Arcane strike first, but Arcane Strike is a pretty decent feat for a bard archer.
Those two are doable, though throwing takes so many feats that it might take too much time to really get going for a bard, and intimimancy eats feats like candy too. I'm not sure that either sounds great - just workable.
A few other ideas:
Arrowsong minstrel bard 7 / arcane archer 2 / bard +X focuses on archery (precise shot as a bonus feat and treated as full BAB for archery prereqs) while losing some spellcasting, but doesn't lose anything required for intimimancy. Arrow eruption could be a fun spell to have on an archer.
Alternately, there's at least five archetypes of other classes which get bardic performance including inspire courage, if you like bardic performance but think bard spellcasting sucks (evangelist cleric, oath of the people's council paladin, sensei monk, exemplar brawler, ocean's echo oracle).
The first is a high-strength build using a longspear. Start with 18 str after racials, and take Combat Reflexes as your first feat. Use standard reach tactics in combat, in addition to Inspire Courage. You don't need a super-high charisma for this type of build; your spell DCs won't matter much since you'll mostly be casting buffs.
The second one may not be up your alley, but I'll mention it because I can link to a build: a Halfling Dawnflower Dervish. Only a selfish Inspire Courage: Battle Dance (double strength Inspire Courage for yourself only). I'm playing her in Hell's Rebels, where she's the primary striker in the party, and one of the two front-liners. The big advantage of this build is that it hits the ground running at 1st lvl; you get Dervish Dance as a bonus feat, so you have dex to hit and damage, before you even spend your 1st lvl feat.
[EDIT]To get a better idea how the Dawnflower Dervish performs in a boss fight (5th lvl): two fights combined into one, I think. There's a brief pause, then the fight escalates. Spoilers for Hell's Rebels, obviously.
The first is a high-strength build using a longspear. Start with 18 str after racials, and take Combat Reflexes as your first feat. Use standard reach tactics in combat, in addition to Inspire Courage. You don't need a super-high charisma for this type of build; your spell DCs won't matter much since you'll mostly be casting buffs.
What would you run for a 20 point stat array? I'm a bit leery of this build because it seems MAD. Str is where points get buried, you need some cha, you need dex to support combat reflexes. I'm a bit concerned.
Those two are doable, though throwing takes so many feats that it might take too much time to really get going for a bard, and intimimancy eats feats like candy too. I'm not sure that either sounds great - just workable.
A few other ideas:
Arrowsong minstrel bard 7 / arcane archer 2 / bard +X focuses on archery (precise shot as a bonus feat and treated as full BAB for archery prereqs) while losing some spellcasting, but doesn't lose anything required for intimimancy. Arrow eruption could be a fun spell to have on an archer.
Alternately, there's at least five archetypes of other classes which get bardic performance including inspire courage, if you like bardic performance but think bard spellcasting sucks (evangelist cleric, oath of the people's council paladin, sensei monk, exemplar brawler, ocean's echo oracle).
Arrowsong Minstrel gives up Dirge of Doom. I was thinking it combos very well with Dazzling Display. Also I was kind of counting on using Versatile Performance to get Intimidate with all of the Perform bonuses I could find. You get a better spell selection, a free feat, and a slightly worse BAB for taking a dip. Right? How good of an archer would this turn out to be?
The other classes are interesting, but part of what I want to do is show a bard that does stuff. I suppose an actual DPS bard would be better for that than one that just fools around with a bow. I'm not convinced a serious archer bard would be good. I'm having a lot of trouble imagining a good stat array, and I'm concerned about being able to hit late game without 3 rounds of buffing myself.
Arcane archer is for the imbue arrow trick. If you're doing other things don't worry about it.
Hitting with archery isn't that big a deal given inspire courage (move action from L7), a single buff spell (which exactly depends on level; sometimes you can buff with heroism out of combat too) and a decent bow. Starting stats might be
(20 point buy, human or half-human) Str 13, Dex 16+2=18, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 14
(20 point buy, fetchling or similar) Str 14, Dex 16+2=18, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 10-2=8, Cha 13+2=15
You just don't need to worry about Cha save DCs if your primary offence is a weapon. Intimidate works with a merely good Cha, and may end up offending the GM less...
I like versatile performance too, but bards have 6+Int skill points base. You can do a bard without it, you just have to focus a little.
a feat plan for blending intimidate and archery on an arrowsong minstrel bard:
I'm not convinced a serious archer bard would be good. I'm having a lot of trouble imagining a good stat array, and I'm concerned about being able to hit late game without 3 rounds of buffing myself.
Human/Half-Human (+2 DEX)
S12, D17, C12, I12, W10, C15
Up DEX at 4, 8 and 12
Up CHA at 16 (for the extra 6th level spell-slot with a +6 Headband).
Level 7 = ~24 DPR:
At level 7 this comes online with:
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Arcane Strike (and more stuff later but whatever).
Round 1: Move action Inspire Courage, Standard action Haste.
Attack routine = +26/+26/+26/+21/+16, 1d8+11+1d6 (20/×3 critt) - (first attack deals double damage if it hits).
That's ~86.835 DPR (~92.05 with Point Blank Shot) which means you can kill the average CR:16 enemy in 3 rounds alone (with a buffing round).
(EDIT: I messed up my maths in there somewhere, it's ~80 DPR at level 16. I'll work it out properly later =P )
So this isn't a game-breaking damage build, but it certainly holds its own in the group. It's also taking nothing much but the basic archery feats (you can add a feat or 2), and I've only given this character a +3 weapon and a +4 belt at level 16.
You're still a super buffing machine who everyone will love and you have skills coming out your ears, but now you can do enough damage to be noticed.
You've also only spent one round buffing, and if you have any swift action spells you can add them into round 1 for something extra.
The first is a high-strength build using a longspear. Start with 18 str after racials, and take Combat Reflexes as your first feat. Use standard reach tactics in combat, in addition to Inspire Courage. You don't need a super-high charisma for this type of build; your spell DCs won't matter much since you'll mostly be casting buffs.
What would you run for a 20 point stat array? I'm a bit leery of this build because it seems MAD. Str is where points get buried, you need some cha, you need dex to support combat reflexes. I'm a bit concerned.
The first is a high-strength build using a longspear. Start with 18 str after racials, and take Combat Reflexes as your first feat. Use standard reach tactics in combat, in addition to Inspire Courage. You don't need a super-high charisma for this type of build; your spell DCs won't matter much since you'll mostly be casting buffs.
What would you run for a 20 point stat array? I'm a bit leery of this build because it seems MAD. Str is where points get buried, you need some cha, you need dex to support combat reflexes. I'm a bit concerned.
Human or Half-Orc:
Str 16+2
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 14
Is it worth spending a feat for 1 extra AoO? I'm warming up to the spear build, but mostly because I'm thinking about Flagbearer later. I can't hang a flag from a shortbow, right?
Is it worth spending a feat for 1 extra AoO? I'm warming up to the spear build, but mostly because I'm thinking about Flagbearer later. I can't hang a flag from a shortbow, right?
Absolutely. It's fairly rare that you get more than two AoOs anyway.
Also Combat Reflexes does more than increase the number of AoOs, it also lets you take AoOs while flat-footed. I've literally had a character survive because of this feature (jumped by 3 Ghasts, max damage on one and a crit on another and now I'm only facing 1 Ghast).
(Personally I think you could start with 17 (or even 16) STR, but that's irrelevant to the question I'm answering.)
My 10th level Bloodrager has Uncanny Dodge and the Quick Reflexes rage power so he doesn't need Combat Reflexes (though he's gonna get it later because 20 foot reach and the Come And Get Me rage power will give him ~100% chance of getting 4 AoOs/round).
I think he's probably had one or two instances in the entire campaign so far where I wish I had more than 2 AoOs per turn.
The first is a high-strength build using a longspear. Start with 18 str after racials, and take Combat Reflexes as your first feat. Use standard reach tactics in combat, in addition to Inspire Courage. You don't need a super-high charisma for this type of build; your spell DCs won't matter much since you'll mostly be casting buffs.
What would you run for a 20 point stat array? I'm a bit leery of this build because it seems MAD. Str is where points get buried, you need some cha, you need dex to support combat reflexes. I'm a bit concerned.
Human or Half-Orc:
Str 16+2
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 14
Is it worth spending a feat for 1 extra AoO? I'm warming up to the spear build, but mostly because I'm thinking about Flagbearer later. I can't hang a flag from a shortbow, right?
Instead of flag bearer, look at battle cry. You have to wait until 5th, but swift action, lasts 1 minute, leaves hands free
Also, Heroism is a 2nd level Bard spell that gives the same bonuses (but +2) and lasts a real long time.
Good hope is great too. It adds damage and is a group buff but it's 1 spell-level higher and it doesn't last as long (so it's more likely you'll have to spend an action on it instead of shooting or whatever).
The value of Good Hope vs Heroism depends on your group composition and your willingness to spend an action buffing.
Flagbearer doesn't cost any action or spells, but requires you to hold a flag (or put a flag on your spear), and doesn't give as high bonuses without some investment (Banner of Ancient Kings or something).
If you buy a lesser metamagic rod of extend, Good Hope lasts long enough that you can often get away with buffing when you think you're going to meet the enemy soon. It also buffs the whole party with one casting, and Heroism competes with Mirror Image for spell slots.
Just thinking a bit more...18 or 20 cha, 13 dex, anything left into con. Deific Fighting Style to get Starknife off cha. If human get Flagbearer at 1st level.
Str 10 Dex 13 Con: 14 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 16+2 stats for human.
Equipment: Starknife, a flag (10gp), buckler. light armor.
first level bard providing a +2 to hit and damage. Not bad. While Heroism and Good Hope are both good spells, being able to provide the same bonus without spells seems more reliable. Especially since that frees up my spell selection to ignore moral bonuses to hit and damage. Even with the bonus at only +1 I think flagbearer is a good alternative.
Feats after 1st level...honestly a bit lost. Do I get serious about working towards Startoss, or do I work on Dazzling Display? Stay melee or work towards throwing? Party composition is going to be a factor I suppose. But not knowing...I'd like to work up a plan for both.
Or are there alternatives I'm not even thinking of?
I was serious about throwing builds taking a lot of feats. With quick draw, point blank shot and precise shot (the bare minimum, really) your next free feat is level 9. Then you can start thinking about the merits of dazzling vs. startoss.
I am currently playing a bard. I wanted to be able to actually get involved in the combat but it is hard to keep up with the combat guys. What I went with was Combat Expertise and Butterfly Sting. You have to worship Desna and you will want to use a rapier. Eventually a keen rapier. It lets you crit fish. When you get a crit you can opt to only get a regular hit and turn the next party hit on that target into a crit.
This lets you pull off some heroic moments in battle. After you get the target off balance it signals your buddy with the great axe to go with a full power attack. And if it hits it is automatically a confirmed crit.
After you set him up with a few of those there will be at least one guy who doesn't think you are useless.
If you get dazzling display and you want to get past the shaken condition then disheartening display is a necessary feat tax. Shaken from demoralize (which is what dazzling display uses) doesn't stack with any fear effect unless you have disheartening. Gory display gets you a demoralize attempt on nearby enemies whenever you take out an enemy. Power attack is useful for doing damage, which you'd need for your longspear to have a good chance of scoring the final blow which gory requires.
Butterfly's sting is fine as far as it goes, but 1) it makes it look like you're a lightweight and someone else is doing the real work and 2) it's better on someone who can score more crits like a TWF kukri-blender.
The worse you are at fighting the better Butterfly sting is.
If you did any real damage you might want to keep the crit for yourself. And that means you wasted two feats to get it.
Oh and now that you mentioned it Riving strike is next on my list to try out. Another great way to setup others for the kill.
I wish we had that in our current game. One of the players is a Shikigami Style improvised weapon fighter that normally uses a Sledge. x2 crit on a 6d6 strike would be nice.
If someone steps up to be a big boy hitter I'll give this a serious consideration.
If you get dazzling display and you want to get past the shaken condition then disheartening display is a necessary feat tax. Shaken from demoralize (which is what dazzling display uses) doesn't stack with any fear effect unless you have disheartening. Gory display gets you a demoralize attempt on nearby enemies whenever you take out an enemy. Power attack is useful for doing damage, which you'd need for your longspear to have a good chance of scoring the final blow which gory requires.
Butterfly's sting is fine as far as it goes, but 1) it makes it look like you're a lightweight and someone else is doing the real work and 2) it's better on someone who can score more crits like a TWF kukri-blender.
I was thinking about stacking Dazzling Display and Dirge of Doom to go from Shaken to Frightened. Neither of them can normally push an opponent past Shaken without help from another feat.
I've been thinking it would be better to buff Dirge of Doom to cause the Frightened condition. Mainly because I'd be able to Dazzling Display as a standard and see how many guys get affected before I use a move or swift to stop Inspire Courage to Dirge of Doom.
Is there a reason it would be better to have Dazzling Display be the one that gets the buff so it can cause the frightened condition? I don't want to spend 2 feats for both without a very good reason.
Dirge of doom can't raise a fear effect to frightened. It can make enemies shaken, then you either cast a fear spell (e.g. cause fear, fear, haunting mists, vision of hell) or use {dazzling display + disheartening display}. Dirge of doom can't come second in that plan regardless.
If you don't want to spend feats (totally understandable) then rely on a fear spell or spells instead of dazzling display. Spells are a limited resource but scaring enemies all day will often be impractical anyway.
Edit: oh, you're talking about spending a feat on improved dirge of doom? That's an alternative to disheartening display I guess which does let you alter the order.
Edit: oh, you're talking about spending a feat on improved dirge of doom? That's an alternative to disheartening display I guess which does let you alter the order.
Yes, I was thinking about Improved Dirge of Doom. I think that will be the better one to improve.
If I improve Dazzling Display, it means I have to go all in and play Dirge of Doom and then follow it up with Dazzling Display which means dropping Inspire Courage. If the enemy is somehow immune to mind affecting (quite a few are) then its better to keep the Inspire Courage going. I feel like the song choice is more important that taking a chance of wasting a standard action on testing if the opponents are immune or if my roll is just bad.
So I'm looking for opinions on either of these builds, or your own suggestion for a pro-active bard that does things. There are a few things to keep in mind:
1)
I've run a bard to lvl 12 based loosely on the Controller build Treantmonk suggested in his PF guide to bards.
Florian is a half elf, vanilla bard who is by now the epitome of jack of all trades. I don't have the starting stats, but at this point without stat boost items his 14, 14, 14, 14, 8, 18.
Feats are largely combat based so in order;
Exotic weapon(Net);
Net Adept
Weapon Focus (Whip)
Whip Mastery
Improved Whip Mastery
Discordant Voice
He also has Skill Focus ( orator) and Lingering Performance
In combat therefore he has options to net and entangle others, he carries 2 nets, but net adept allows them to be reused in combat time if needed. The whip was a steel or scorpion whip as soon as I could afford it and is now a +1acidic scorpion whip so 1d6+1d4+4 before buffs, it threatens a 15 ft radius so makes flanking a lot easier as Florian is many things but not a front liner (hp93 AC25). Versatile performer means he is using Perform instead of intimidate so demoralising is also a useful trick and on BBEG, the net and intimidate can be a -4 non magic debuff at least. Inspire Courage is +3 and discordant voice adds 1d6 sonic damage to all affected allies.
Spell loadout was a mix of the usual hideous laughter type debuffs, confusion, rainbow pattern, with general utility ( invisibility, Haste, Dimension door) and Blistering invective (1d10 + possible burning to all intimidated in 30ft radius). A wand of versatile weapon helps get a whip past alignment DR
Rounds involved spell casting, buffing, debuffing and attacking with net and whip, ensuring rogues and slayers get flanking. Dimension door for combat dropping fighters behind the boss's minion screen.
I can honestly say there were very few times I had rounds of sitting around doing nothing, normally only against heavily armoured constructs or high CR mindless undead and vermin.
With the out of battle skills and abilities this was a fun character to play, and one that got party invitations even over a similar level battle cleric of Gorum I also had.
I do appreciate the contribution and I'll look at the net and discordant voice (plus the wand of versatile weapon) stuff. Its just... I really dislike whips in Pathfinder.
Wielding a whip means needing three feats to get the weapon to a useful state. That is a lot of feats to dedicate to a single weapon. Especially considering that the only real benefit you get out of it is a 15'reach. Sure, its the longest reach weapon you can wield. I get that. I just don't think its worth all that effort. Well, maybe for a magus build. Maybe. Or a mid to high level cleric that wants to use a whip with the channel special ability to deliver touch spells (like healing).
