do you need to be aware of a trigger to use a reaction?


Rules Discussion


What I mean is if a reaction has a trigger that doesn't involve an attack against you, do you actually have to be aware of it to use your reaction or as long as the reaction meets the trigger requirements you can use it?

For example
Champion Glimpse of redemption if your ally and the enemy are both within 15 feet of you but on the other side of a pillar or something where there is no line of sight or effect and you can't see them in any way, could you still use Glimpse of redemption as a reaction to an attack made?


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I would say no because there's no indication whatsoever that your character would know they needed to protect the ally in that specific moment. Line of Effect and Line of Sight both impede its use.


I'm also going with no.

My example that I thought of is a fighter with an attack of opportunity against an invisible creature that has used stealth to hide successfully from the fighter. The fighter is unaware of the enemy's position and can't make an attack of opportunity, that makes sense to me.

In general, I think if you're not aware of the actions an enemy is taking, you can't react to it.

I'm not sure if that explicitly encapsulated in the rules though.


I would say yes you would need to be aware (as a reaction is a choice and if you aren't aware then you cannot make that choice). I wouldn't say that you needed line of effect, but you would have to know that something had happened to trigger your reaction.

RAW with glimpse of redemption you don't need to know, see or even hear the event. But I wager that is a pretty loose reading for RAI.

Another example would be feather fall, say you are fighting in a house, the enemy teleports your ally suddenly with a unique creature ability you didn't know of (they are now 60ft up in the air above the house and are falling)
RAW you can cast featherfall as a reaction on the character that you have no idea is falling and can have no idea is falling. But I sincerely doubt this is how the designers envisioned the usage of the spell, and it seems more than a little meta.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The rules on reactions include no requirement that the (re)actor have awareness. Further, there are reaction triggers that do require awareness, like kobold Cringe:

Quote:
Trigger A creature you are aware of critically succeeds on a Strike against you and would deal damage to you.

But (!) if your character doesn't have awareness, then it will often be the case that the GM will make it so neither do you as a player. You can't invoke a reaction for your character if you yourself don't know about the opportunity to do so.


Tarpeius wrote:

The rules on reactions include no requirement that the (re)actor have awareness. Further, there are reaction triggers that do require awareness, like kobold Cringe:

Quote:
Trigger A creature you are aware of critically succeeds on a Strike against you and would deal damage to you.

That's different. Even if you were not aware of the creature you would be aware of the trigger (as you are the one taking the blow). So the distinction is important.

Reactions need awareness, otherwise you have some crazy situations like a Wizard successfully using Conceal Spell triggering Counterspell...

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
SuperBidi wrote:
Reactions need awareness, otherwise you have some crazy situations like a Wizard successfully using Conceal Spell triggering Counterspell...

This is precisely a case where you wouldn't have the information as a player to invoke a reaction. The GM may allow you to invoke it on a hunch if see the manifestations from the beginning, but you instead may only be informed that your character was just struck by lightning and took damage.


Normally no, but with the champion's reaction, you only need to know that your ally was damaged. You can prevent it, but only if the attacker is also within 15 feet. You don't have to know that part, but the magic will only work if the attacker is within range.

Trigger: An enemy damages your ally, and both are within 15 feet of you.

There is nothing here that prevents you to use a reaction if you hear that sword connecting to your ally, not even that. The whole concept of the damage prevention from the Champion's reaction is already divine. Some sort of field surrounding the champion in which he's aware that someone gets hurt.


Aivi wrote:

What I mean is if a reaction has a trigger that doesn't involve an attack against you, do you actually have to be aware of it to use your reaction or as long as the reaction meets the trigger requirements you can use it?

For example
Champion Glimpse of redemption if your ally and the enemy are both within 15 feet of you but on the other side of a pillar or something where there is no line of sight or effect and you can't see them in any way, could you still use Glimpse of redemption as a reaction to an attack made?

If we are talking about a pillar, a fence, a not so high brick roll, a tree, etc... then the fighting targets should get nothing until they

- Take cover ( +X ac, depends where they are ).

and then

- attempt a stealth check ( which obviously wouldn't work with the one close to them ).

So the reaction would land with no problems

If we are talking about this specific situation

1) fighting scenario
2) 2 characters goes behind a wall during the fight

E= Enemy
A= Ally
C= Champion
===== = Wall

Quote:

__E A

=======
__C

Then they should be hidden from the champion.

About hidden characters, I was looking at the hidden condition

Quote:
While you’re hidden from a creature, that creature knows the space you’re in but can’t tell precisely where you are. You typically become hidden by using Stealth to Hide. When Seeking a creature using only imprecise senses, it remains hidden, rather than observed. A creature you’re hidden from is flat-footed to you, and it must succeed at a DC 11 flat check when targeting you with an attack, spell, or other effect or it fails affect you. Area effects aren’t subject to this flat check.

as well as "Sense Allies", the new human ( how unexpected! ) feat

Quote:
Like many humans raised in a close-knit community, you have always been strongly attuned to the presence of others. Willing allies that you are aware of within 60 feet that would otherwise be undetected by you are instead hidden from you. The flat check for you to target willing allies within 60 feet that are hidden from you is 5 instead of 11.

So the reaction "could" be allowed ( by raw there are no rules for what concern sight, if not specified on the reaction itself ), given a specific check to guess the ally position.

if ====== were just tents or something similar, a paladin could also make a check to also guess the enemy position, in order to stride and hit it.

I would probably allow the paladin to use the ranged reprisal, regardless the outcome of the attack.


guess I should have clarified some.

in this situation the champion was on one side of a long wall in a cave and his ally went on the other side, both were unaware of the enemy that attacked.

so champion on one side, ally and unknown enemy on the other

C
===========
E A


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Falco271 wrote:

Normally no, but with the champion's reaction, you only need to know that your ally was damaged. You can prevent it, but only if the attacker is also within 15 feet. You don't have to know that part, but the magic will only work if the attacker is within range.

Trigger: An enemy damages your ally, and both are within 15 feet of you.

There is nothing here that prevents you to use a reaction if you hear that sword connecting to your ally, not even that. The whole concept of the damage prevention from the Champion's reaction is already divine. Some sort of field surrounding the champion in which he's aware that someone gets hurt.

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=359

This is the line of effect rule. This is a general rule that the Reaction falls under. It's an effect being blocked by a solid object. The situation described by OP clearly states that there is no line of sight or effect.

So a champion wouldn't know neither would be able to use their ability even he somehow did. Even though we engage with the game as a round-by-round and action-by-action in discrete divides, the battle itself in-world, is happening in a fluid sequence, which makes it hard for someone to tell what's exactly is happening behind an object that blocks sight completely. You're free to allow the trigger as much as you want, but it is against the rules of Line of Effect and its restrictions, if there was a small opening or slit that allowed Line of Effect, then I would maybe consider allowing (probably gating it behind a successful Perception check).


Unless a particular reaction had text to the contrary, I'd say you need to be aware of a trigger to use a reaction to that trigger.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Aivi wrote:

so champion on one side, ally and unknown enemy on the other

C
===========
E A

You lack line of effect with the wall there. It's necessary for targeting, even with awareness, unless the GM says otherwise.

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