The Cackle Hex states you Cackle as a free action. You sustain a spell.
So let me see if I'm clear on this. You spend a focus point to sustain a spell once as a free action? That's it? One round of free action sustain with no heightening for 1 focus point?
Yes. It is a free action that would normally be an action. You also gain a focus point for taking the feat, so it can be used 2 times in a combat at least once a day.
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I'm not sure why you're bringing up heightening, that has nothing to do with Cackle, but otherwise you're correct.
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Yeah, it's a little better if you have more focus points with which to use it. Even if you only have one though, it let's you get two summon monsters out simultaneously.
Round 1: Cast summon spell (typically 3 actions)
Round 2: Sustain summon spell (free action thanks to Cackle), cast second summon spell (3 actions).
Then you can just sustain the two spells as normal. Hell, sustain one with Cackle again so that you free up an action (leaving you with two) then cast flaming sphere. Sustain all three effects.
Or maybe something simpler, like casting and maintaining three flaming spheres.
Round 1: Cast flaming sphere (2 actions). Stride to safe location (1 action).
Round 2: Sustain flaming sphere (1 action), cast second flaming sphere (2 actions).
Round 3: Sustain both flaming spheres (1 action, free action), cast third flaming sphere (2 actions).
It's actually quite powerful! Other casters need to be around 10th-level to do something similar.
A 1-round Quickened that lets you take only one specific action?
No thanks.
Not that I wouldn't want it in an emergency, but that's a feat and hopefully I can get more effect out of my Focus Spells, even if I have to MCD to do so.
Just a one example of usage:
Level 20 (can be of an lower level for practical example)
Round 1) Level-10 Storm of Vengeance (3-action)
Round 2) Second level-10 Storm of vengeance (3-action), plus sustaining first SoV with Effortless Concentration.
Round 3) Third level-9 Storm of vengeance (3-action), sustaining first with EC and second one with Cackle
Round 4) Fourth level-9 Storm of Vengeance (3-action), sustaining first with EC, and second and third with two remaining cackles
Round 5+) Sustaining all 4 storms with EC+standard 3 action.
If you can ambush large group of enemies, with clear sight over a 1,000 feet. You can inflict 16d8 acid damage per round, with no saves. They would have move at least 360 feet to escape third and fourth storm. And more (depending on placement first two compares to second two) to escape first and second.
If enemies resistant or immune to acid, and/or you confident they are not very good with fortitude save - you can instead do 16d10 bludgeoning damage with hailstorm.
And finally if there are no more than 10 enemies, and you confident they are neither resistant/immune to lightnings, and/or good at reflex save - you can do 4 lightning storms, for 28d6 damage per round.
If i would be a GM, i really would worry about such devastating combination, and would seriously start adjusting encounters, with enemies that can resist given types of damages, or outright having very good spellcasters, with prepared dispells
So a single focus point to sustain a spell for one round that you forego to cast something like malicious shadow or needle surge. Hmmm. I'm going to have to work on this.
About the most useful use is what Ravigdork outlined. You can cast a second summon while sustaining the first. You can do this earlier than 16th level. Though I haven't found summons to be particularly useful.
That's a really cool scenario, yet too contrived to expect to see in play.
And any enemy so exposed (and somewhat incapable given the level) should be fodder for any level 20 caster who prepares the exact right spells. (Especially if they're running w/ an equal party.)
A 1-round Quickened that lets you take only one specific action?
No thanks.
Not that I wouldn't want it in an emergency, but that's a feat and hopefully I can get more effect out of my Focus Spells, even if I have to MCD to do so.
Alternative thinking: Since Witches often have sustained spells going, it can be considered as spending one focus point to get a 1-round Quickened that you can do anything with since you aren't spending that action to sustain.
Still not a terribly powerful ability.
Although at low levels there isn't much else to do with a focus point. Without taking Basic Lesson at level 2, the only focus spell that you have that costs a focus point is Phase Familiar, which only gives your familiar a minor resistance against damage for one attack.
So at low levels, sustaining with your focus points may not be the worst thing to do with them.
Though, in my opinion, Basic Lesson is a much more powerful choice than Cackle.
That's a really cool scenario, yet too contrived to expect to see in play.
And any enemy so exposed (and somewhat incapable given the level) should be fodder for any level 20 caster who prepares the exact right spells. (Especially if they're running w/ an equal party.)
Well, with lightning storm you don't even need preparing it as an ambush, as unlike acid rain and hailstorm it won't damage allies.
It can also be done both at much lower levels with combining something like 4 Lightning Storms (as of actual level-5 spell, not variation of Storm of Vengeance). Or heightening Lightning Storm similarly to level-10 and 9. For even more devastating single target damage (unless target is immune to it, or have insanely good reflex save).There are obviously even more possibilities. Spells requited sustaining not super common, but there is still many to chose from.
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It sounds banal, but I think the main use is to keep another hex sustained (witches love their sustained hexes) while casting a spell and keeping an action to move. Without it, you can get put in the situation where you really need to move (enemies closing in) but you can then only sustain a spell or cast a new one, not both.
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Also, referring to it as a '1 round Quickened' may be misleading since it is not in fact related to Quickened.
It stacks with Quickened. Thats pretty big.
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Also, referring to it as a '1 round Quickened' may be misleading since it is not in fact related to Quickened.
It stacks with Quickened. Thats pretty big.
well, that and most quickened (all?) don't give access to sustain atm.
It is a fine feat to take if you know why you are taking it, not great if you don't.
Like most feats :p
You can also cackle while raging if you were a multiclass barb and wanted to fight next to a flaming sphere.
I don't have complaints with Cackle as-is. I could definitely see myself using it in a clutch moment.
Letting something you're sustaining fall off because you're being pressured by baddies feels *really* bad. Having a way to keep something rolling when you absolutely must use your actions for something else is a very fine option for a feat.
You can also cackle while raging if you were a multiclass barb and wanted to fight next to a flaming sphere.
For one extra round per Focus Point?
(And likely with a mediocre save on the spell.)
You can also cackle while raging if you were a multiclass barb and wanted to fight next to a flaming sphere.For one extra round per Focus Point?
(And likely with a mediocre save on the spell.)
It may not be the greatest thing ever but it's still something you can't do without cackle.
And flaming sphere was the first sustain spell I thought of
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I don't get the whole "it's not that great" attitudes that I'm seeing here. Improving your action economy is one of the most powerful things you can do in 2nd Edition.
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I don't get the whole "it's not that great" attitudes that I'm seeing here. Improving your action economy is one of the most powerful things you can do in 2nd Edition.
You can bet that if the the party's opponent did this they'd sit up and take notice.
"Wait, he gets how many actions?!"
I don't get the whole "it's not that great" attitudes that I'm seeing here. Improving your action economy is one of the most powerful things you can do in 2nd Edition.
For 1 round per combat? Over say using malicious shadow or death curse? Maybe once in a while. It's a steep cost for 1 round of sustain and situtationally useful.
Not like witches have tons to do with their actions. It might be cooler for a beastmaster witch or a witch multiclass for a character who has some nice things to do with their actions. For a druid witch, Cackle might be nice letting them send their pet attack while sustaining some cool spell or letting them use Invoke Disaster while sustaining it while casting a spell.
Hmmmmmm. I like that.
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I don't get the whole "it's not that great" attitudes that I'm seeing here. Improving your action economy is one of the most powerful things you can do in 2nd Edition.For 1 round per combat? Over say using malicious shadow or death curse? Maybe once in a while. It's a steep cost for 1 round of sustain and situtationally useful.
...you would use it after casting one of those spells in order to keep it up while doing something else very important that same round.
most casters get a free sustain at 16th, so the example is even more crazy that that.
You can use sustain only once per turn, as it have trigger: "Your turn begins".
With Hex Master you can do as many cackles per turn as you have spare focus points.
most casters get a free sustain at 16th, so the example is even more crazy that that.You can use sustain only once per turn, as it have trigger: "Your turn begins".
With Hex Master you can do as many cackles per turn as you have spare focus points.
Where are you seeing that?
Neither Sustain an Activation nor Sustain a Spell have any such trigger.
EDIT: Ah, you were referring to Effortless Concentration.
I don't get the whole "it's not that great" attitudes that I'm seeing here. Improving your action economy is one of the most powerful things you can do in 2nd Edition.
Specially when the class that has this kinda revolves around sustaining spells for a lot of what it does.
I don't get the whole "it's not that great" attitudes that I'm seeing here. Improving your action economy is one of the most powerful things you can do in 2nd Edition.For 1 round per combat? Over say using malicious shadow or death curse? Maybe once in a while. It's a steep cost for 1 round of sustain and situtationally useful.
Not like witches have tons to do with their actions. It might be cooler for a beastmaster witch or a witch multiclass for a character who has some nice things to do with their actions. For a druid witch, Cackle might be nice letting them send their pet attack while sustaining some cool spell or letting them use Invoke Disaster while sustaining it while casting a spell.
Hmmmmmm. I like that.
How many rounds are your combats? in my games, a free sustain on a flaming sphere or something could be big if you're trying to nova.
Where are you seeing that?
Neither Sustain an Activation nor Sustain a Spell have any such trigger.
Additionally, a fair few sustain spells also only do their sustain effects once per turn. Most do, I think Spiritual Weapon and Flaming Sphere are the only two that don't say, "once per round when..."
EDIT: Ah, you were referring to Effortless Concentration.
Yes, i'v should specify.
...situtationally useful.Everything in the game is intended to be situationally useful.
Pointing out an ability being situationally useful is effectively saying it's working as intended - it is the things which aren't situationally useful that need to be adjusted (whether because there's no situation they are useful in, or because there are too many situations they are useful in so they appear to be generally, rather that situationally, useful).
This isn't true in regards to combat where we use these round by round abilities. There are numerous abilities that are useful all the time, every round, round after round. People tend to take those abilities in lieu of situationally useful abilities which are useful in a small number of situations.
So analyzing an ability according to how often you might find it useful is very important when comparing it to another ability which will be useful in far more situations, if not every single combat.
How many rounds are your combats? in my games, a free sustain on a flaming sphere or something could be big if you're trying to nova.I don't get the whole "it's not that great" attitudes that I'm seeing here. Improving your action economy is one of the most powerful things you can do in 2nd Edition.For 1 round per combat? Over say using malicious shadow or death curse? Maybe once in a while. It's a steep cost for 1 round of sustain and situtationally useful.
Not like witches have tons to do with their actions. It might be cooler for a beastmaster witch or a witch multiclass for a character who has some nice things to do with their actions. For a druid witch, Cackle might be nice letting them send their pet attack while sustaining some cool spell or letting them use Invoke Disaster while sustaining it while casting a spell.
Hmmmmmm. I like that.
Depends on how many enemies. Anywhere from 3 to 4 to 7 to 11.
I can see a few nova caster situations where a free sustain may be useful. Worth a focus point when you can only recover 1 per 10 minute rest at low level? Not so sure. Once you obtain the ability to recover 2 focus points per 10 minute refocus, maybe more valuable.
My buddy took that bring shadow to life ability and he has 2 focus points at lvl 6. He might use his second focus point in a single battle to sustain his shadow while attacking at this level. He definitely wouldn't use Cackle over casting the Shadow ability. So it would be a 1 time a day tactic at his current level.
A lot of people often view this in a vacuum for the individual character. But in a real game the witch is not likely to be the primary hammer of a group, which won't require them going nova too often if ever. In this particularly group we have a storm druid, giant instinct barbarian, and a swashbuckler, so the damage hammer is strong. She's on the low end of that damage hammer.
I'd rather use a focus point to heal myself. Or fly.
Not pay for a sustain.
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This isn't true in regards to combat where we use these round by round abilities. There are numerous abilities that are useful all the time, every round, round after round. People tend to take those abilities in lieu of situationally useful abilities which are useful in a small number of situations.So analyzing an ability according to how often you might find it useful is very important when comparing it to another ability which will be useful in far more situations, if not every single combat.
But that precisely why cackle exist - time management.
Historically most OP builds was when spellcasters managed to do more things, in less amount of time.Original D&D 3.0e haste, that allowed yo to cast extra spell every round.
Earlier editions time stop, that allowed you pre-cast offensive spells, to put them in effect simultaneously as TS ends.
Simbul's Spell Matrix, that allowed you pre-cast multiple spells, and release them all at once at one target.
And so on.
Cackle perhaps not as OP, but it meant to do the same - saving you time, so you can accumulate more things at once, in shorter amount of time.
I'd rather use a focus point to heal myself. Or fly.
Not pay for a sustain.
I'm missing something....how are you using a focus point to fly?
I'd rather use a focus point to heal myself. Or fly.
Not pay for a sustain.
I'm missing something....how are you using a focus point to fly?
Draconic Sorcerer Focus 5 or Elemental (Fire/Air) Sorcerer Focus 3 spells. Angelic, too, I think.
I'd rather use a focus point to heal myself. Or fly.
Not pay for a sustain.
It sounds like it is a good thing they made this a feat and not a class feature then. I really don't understand the point of arguing that other people who value what cackle does shouldn't be allowed to pick it as a feat.
Draconic Sorcerer Focus 5 or Elemental (Fire/Air) Sorcerer Focus 3 spells. Angelic, too, I think.I'd rather use a focus point to heal myself. Or fly.
Not pay for a sustain.
I'm missing something....how are you using a focus point to fly?
Sure....but this thread is about Cackle...which I suppose you could attempt to archetype into Cackle if you really wanted too.
I was hoping for some option I missed that would allow a witch to fly with focus points :-)
It sounds like it is a good thing they made this a feat and not a class feature then. I really don't understand the point of arguing that other people who value what cackle does shouldn't be allowed to pick it as a feat.I'd rather use a focus point to heal myself. Or fly.
Not pay for a sustain.
It is a class feature...it is a Witch Feat...unless I have a fundamental misunderstanding of the rules...
It is a class feature...it is a Witch Feat...unless I have a fundamental misunderstanding of the rules...It sounds like it is a good thing they made this a feat and not a class feature then. I really don't understand the point of arguing that other people who value what cackle does shouldn't be allowed to pick it as a feat.I'd rather use a focus point to heal myself. Or fly.
Not pay for a sustain.
I meant that you don't have to take it if it isn't going to help your build.
I meant that you don't have to take it if it isn't going to help your build.It is a class feature...it is a Witch Feat...unless I have a fundamental misunderstanding of the rules...It sounds like it is a good thing they made this a feat and not a class feature then. I really don't understand the point of arguing that other people who value what cackle does shouldn't be allowed to pick it as a feat.I'd rather use a focus point to heal myself. Or fly.
Not pay for a sustain.
That makes complete sense!
I can say from my point of view...what sent me here reading this thread is that I was really looking forward to playing a witch.
But I belong to a group of power gamers (and I have a bit of it myself).
It seems like the Witch is a very under powered class compared to a Wizard or Sorcerer. I am finding many of the feats and hexes to be underwhelming. I like options and it feels like half of them are removed as soon as I read them.
So I'm starting to venture online to see if I am just not being creative enough when reviewing them.
It seems like the Witch is a very under powered class compared to a Wizard or Sorcerer. I am finding many of the feats and hexes to be underwhelming. I like options and it feels like half of them are removed as soon as I read them.
So I'm starting to venture online to see if I am just not being creative enough when reviewing them.
Paizo was very conservative about it, yeah. They didn't want another Bard (at the same time, I could build a bard and call it a witch, and it would be better at it).