| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
In particular attack rating provided. It's fairly well balanced when facing enemies of your level (as of level to animal form vs level-3 enemies, and level-5 animal form vs level-9 enemies), providing you roughly 60% chance to hit on your first strike (with spells' attack rating).
However as soon as you start facing enemies of higher level - spells of (initially) lower levels start becoming nearly useless. Even with just two level difference you will start noticing how drastically efficiency drops.
That constantly forces you to pick new Battle Forms. Which bad on it's own at least roleplay-wise (what if character really prefers one particular form?), and in case of Wild Shape it gets even worse, as it forces you to pick only feats that gives you new battle forms for Wild Shape.
I think Battle forms needs more versatile spell-heightening mechanics. Perhaps even something like providing universal spell-card on how every battle form scales with attack and armor class, with ability to heighten it to every spell-level. With additional upscaling described for every particular battle form.
In short providing mechanics where you can heighten even lower battle form spells like Animal Form or Dinosaur Form up to level-10.
I agree, that would be much better.
Yup, that would've been awesome.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So, first you are always free to use your attack bonus for Wild Shape if it is higher (with a +2 status bonus to boot), so on the attack side you don't have that issue, although a similar feature for AC could be nice.
Then, the problem is that if you are scaling to lvl 10, you either have the same stats as the high level spells rendering them mostly useless, or you heighten to lesser stats, and then the new heightening is useless.
That being said, I do believe that Battle forms need some new things, I was kinda expecting the Druid feats and Wizard (transmuter) feats to bring some but was surprised by the lack of it (except for a transmuter feat giving equivalent to control form)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It would be nice if battle forms worked different in 2e as opposed to how they've always worked.
The forms offering different utility instead of degrees of power.
Small form, medium form, large form, etc. Getting some basic universal bonuses for each size.
Then you have the specialty features of says forms like flying, swimming, imprecise sense, etc.
And there can be some overlap in these bonuses and features between exact creatures, let the specific creature form be a bit malleable to be more about flavor and area.
But that's just my thoughts and would require massive changes I think.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, this is a growing concern of mine. For spells, it's not that big a deal since you can always just switch out for the top of the line one, even if it's a form you don't prefer.
But for class features it's a huge problem. Dragon Disciple's premiere ability drops off surprisingly quickly. The amount of AC you lose makes it extremely risky.
Druids constantly having to buy up (and always getting bigger, which is its own issue) is very unsatisfying.
I'm considering a general rule of using your stats if they're better for everything the form gives you.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
There's ANOTHER huge issue with this, that for some god forsaken reason, Battle Form spslls have gaps on their levels. Dragon Form, Dinosaur Form and many others have level intervals where they're literally unusable because the spell only has, for example, a 6th and an 8th level version, but no 7th.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Agree, battle forms definitely need to scale more uniformly, with the major upgrades serving as breaks in there.
Would also be nice to decouple the size increases from the stat increases. Huge battle forms are awesome in open spaces, but feels bad when you're in a narrow hallway and your combat mechanic doesn't work anymore because the last time you leveled up you got forced into a new size category.
For spells, it's not that big a deal since you can always just switch out for the top of the line one, even if it's a form you don't prefer.
I think forcing someone into a form they don't prefer is kind of a big deal. Having a spell someone really likes for thematic reasons just depreciate on them like that really sucks.
(except for a transmuter feat giving equivalent to control form)
Transmuter feat is not equivalent to Control Form, Transmuter feat is one of the worst feat anyone ever bothered writing down in this edition.
Yeah, I feel this. It's why I'm excited for the eventual Shifter. I wanna be able to turn into animals from 1-20, not be forced into dragon or kaiju forms.
|
Furthermore, the math in this edition, being described as "tight" often, is more-or-less Known.
And because of the modularity of Traits, it'd be easy enough to print in the spells section something like:
"Battle Forms gain, in addition to those listed, the following Heighten options:
(+1) Add +2 to attack rolls and AC, and +10 to hit points...
(+2) Add +4 to attack rolls and AC, and +20 to hit points...
(+3) Add +6 to attack rolls and AC, and +30 to hit points..." And so on...
It would be nice if battle forms worked different in 2e as opposed to how they've always worked.
The forms offering different utility instead of degrees of power.
Small form, medium form, large form, etc. Getting some basic universal bonuses for each size.
Then you have the specialty features of says forms like flying, swimming, imprecise sense, etc.
And there can be some overlap in these bonuses and features between exact creatures, let the specific creature form be a bit malleable to be more about flavor and area.
But that's just my thoughts and would require massive changes I think.
Lower level battle form just can't be as good as higher level, even if there would be a rule to scale them to any level. As of you might get bear form with higher armor class, higher attack... maybe even higher plain damage bonuses. But by you still would be a bear. So no extra tricks like breath attacks, flaming auras and such.
Secondly, Wild Shape's +2 status bonus still doesn't really helps much.As an example, lets say as a level 20 (can be of any lower level as example) you still tries to use heightened dragon form. Base +28 to attack against level 20+ creatures obviously very low. So yeah, lets try and see what we can get on our own.
20+4 (proficiency as a druid) + 5 (possible strength or dexterity modifier on level 20) + 2 status bonus from wildshape = 31. Status bonus practically can be increased to +3 from heroic spell. But that something you can't do on your own. And so far there are only two circumstance bonuses to attack exist. And as a druid you can't benefit from neither.
+31 to attack certainly better than +28. But that still lower than +34 provided by level-10 Nature Incarnate. So practically still not very viable.
So, first you are always free to use your attack bonus for Wild Shape if it is higher (with a +2 status bonus to boot), so on the attack side you don't have that issue, although a similar feature for AC could be nice.
The AC does scale a little, but not as well as it should.
Lower level battle form just can't be as good as higher level,It would be nice if battle forms worked different in 2e as opposed to how they've always worked.
The forms offering different utility instead of degrees of power.
Small form, medium form, large form, etc. Getting some basic universal bonuses for each size.
Then you have the specialty features of says forms like flying, swimming, imprecise sense, etc.
And there can be some overlap in these bonuses and features between exact creatures, let the specific creature form be a bit malleable to be more about flavor and area.
But that's just my thoughts and would require massive changes I think.
They would be better if the defenses scaled normally all the way up even from the lower level spell slots. Or if there was a simple rule that you can use your own AC if it is better. But the movement and offensive powers improved with higher level slots. Then at least you could use them for utility without being totally vulnerable
Same goes btw with animal companion. And they even kinda scales each level. Still they gets too small bonuses to matter. On level 20 animal companions attack is 20+2(proficiency) + 6(strength or dexterity) = 28. They can't benefit from item bonus to attack, and they don't have means to gain extra circumstance or status bonus on their own.
Ranger can make his animal companion benefit from Masterful Hunter. Which kinda makes potential second attack not as entirely useless (let's be honest, otherwise it most likely critically miss). But otherwise their attack attribute still very low.
I understand intention of carefully balance animal companion compared to 1e (in which they was completely overpowered). But they just gets... almost useless in the end.
It would be nice if battle forms worked different in 2e as opposed to how they've always worked.
The forms offering different utility instead of degrees of power.
Small form, medium form, large form, etc. Getting some basic universal bonuses for each size.
Then you have the specialty features of says forms like flying, swimming, imprecise sense, etc.
And there can be some overlap in these bonuses and features between exact creatures, let the specific creature form be a bit malleable to be more about flavor and area.
But that's just my thoughts and would require massive changes I think.
Lower level battle form just can't be as good as higher level, even if there would be a rule to scale them to any level. As of you might get bear form with higher armor class, higher attack... maybe even higher plain damage bonuses. But by you still would be a bear. So no extra tricks like breath attacks, flaming auras and such.
Secondly, Wild Shape's +2 status bonus still doesn't really helps much.
As an example, lets say as a level 20 (can be of any lower level as example) you still tries to use heightened dragon form. Base +28 to attack against level 20+ creatures obviously very low. So yeah, lets try and see what we can get on our own.
20+4 (proficiency as a druid) + 5 (possible strength or dexterity modifier on level 20) + 2 status bonus from wildshape = 31. Status bonus practically can be increased to +3 from heroic spell. But that something you can't do on your own. And so far there are only two circumstance bonuses to attack exist. And as a druid you can't benefit from neither.
+31 to attack certainly better than +28. But that still lower than +34 provided by level-10 Nature Incarnate. So practically still not very viable.
+24 prof, +6 str with belt of str, +3 item with handwraps, +2 WS status = 35. While Form spells say you can't gain item bonuses wild shape does allow for the item bonus due to being able to use your own stats bypassing that restriction.
+24 prof, +6 str with belt of str, +3 item with handwraps, +2 WS status = 35. While Form spells say you can't gain item bonuses wild shape does allow for the item bonus due to being able to use your own stats...
1) All Apex items provide ability boost only for very first 24 hours. Sure something you might consider to do if you know for sure tough fight is upcoming. But in long term you don't have that. You can still benefit from other stats boost, and item activation (if you do it prior to polymorphing). But not ability boost.
In all practical sense max stat for a player character is 20.2) You can't benefit from item bonuses while in Battle Form. Period.
Same goes btw with animal companion. And they even kinda scales each level. Still they gets too small bonuses to matter. On level 20 animal companions attack is 20+2(proficiency) + 6(strength or dexterity) = 28. They can't benefit from item bonus to attack, and they don't have means to gain extra circumstance or status bonus on their own.
Ranger can make his animal companion benefit from Masterful Hunter. Which kinda makes potential second attack not as entirely useless (let's be honest, otherwise it most likely critically miss). But otherwise their attack attribute still very low.I understand intention of carefully balance animal companion compared to 1e (in which they was completely overpowered). But they just gets... almost useless in the end.
You are underestimating at the top end
Some can get to take expert proficiency with specialist animal companion. You can also get to +8 for the animals Dex. Depends exactly on your class and the number of feats you take. So not great but not as bad as you say. Str based animal companions are worse off.I'm quite happy with Dragorine's interpretation on the Battle Form item bonus. But yes opinions are firmly divided on this. So no need to into it again.
However if you really believe that these parts of the game are badly nerfed into uselessness. Then it is incumbant on the GM to patch it up for your game. Presuming that someone wants to use it. That is what Paizo say to do.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
2) You can't benefit from item bonuses while in Battle Form. Period.
There are a lot of general rules broken by specific rules. When something tells me I use my attack bonus i assume it is my attack bonus. My attack bonus includes an item bonus. It would be the same attack bonus as if i punched the monster. If you don't agree that's fine. I wouldn't ever play a druid at your table though.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
2) You can't benefit from item bonuses while in Battle Form. Period.
The special statistics can't benefit from item bonuses, but if you're using your own attacking stat you're no longer using the special statistics from battle form.
+24 prof, +6 str with belt of str, +3 item with handwraps, +2 WS status = 35. While Form spells say you can't gain item bonuses wild shape does allow for the item bonus due to being able to use your own stats...1) All Apex items provide ability boost only for very first 24 hours. Sure something you might consider to do if you know for sure tough fight is upcoming. But in long term you don't have that. You can still benefit from other stats boost, and item activation (if you do it prior to polymorphing). But not ability boost.
In all practical sense max stat for a player character is 20.2) You can't benefit from item bonuses while in Battle Form. Period.
What are you talking about? You invest your items every day, the apex item +2 to stat is not only for the day you first invest it.
"You reset the limit during your daily preparations, at which point you Invest your Items anew"
Even without it max stat would be 22 for a PC, 24 with apex.
What are you talking about? You invest your items every day, the apex item +2 to stat is not only for the day you first invest it."You reset the limit during your daily preparations, at which point you Invest your Items anew"
Even without it max stat would be 22 for a PC, 24 with apex.
Or for a druid str score 20 and 22 respectively as druids can't start with an 18 str. Assuming one didn't increase str at level 20 as it wouldn't help of course.