My suspicion is "no", based on the existence of this Loremaster feat, Quick Study:
During your daily preparations, you can study a particular subject to gain the trained proficiency rank in one Lore skill of your choice. You must have interacted with that subject in some way on the previous day, whether by reading about it, talking to someone knowledgeable on the topic, or experiencing it yourself. Alternatively, you can reference your notes to instead choose a Lore skill you've prepared before with Quick Study. This proficiency lasts until you prepare again. Since this proficiency is temporary, you can't use it as a prerequisite for a skill increase or a permanent character option like a feat.
If the narrower lore skill wasn't beneficial in some way, then this would be strictly worse than Loremaster Lore.
I welcome other's thoughts though.
It lets you use the lore for something other than recall knowledge, like earning income.
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This is really not an area where there's a clear RAW answer. It depends on your GM. Ask them.
For what it's worth,many PFS scenarios call out lower DCs for !ore checks and every GM so far has let me use bardic lore with no issue.
Which seems fair to me. Bardic Lore is a significant investment, it should have done real benefits
Like DMW said, there's no clear answer. I typically reduce the DC by 2 for such things in my own games. So better than rolling another skill you're trained in, but not as good as a very specific lore.
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Like DMW said, there's no clear answer. I typically reduce the DC by 2 for such things in my own games. So better than rolling another skill you're trained in, but not as good as a very specific lore.
For the record, this is what I personally do as well. But I'd expect you're gonna see a fair bit of table variation on this one.
I think allowing the baseline +2 DC reduction is reasonable, and helps Bardic Lore remain beneficial for most of the game, after the broader Knowledge skills can be raised to Expert or Master (but Bardic Lore is still stuck at Trained). Eventually Bardic Lore increases to Expert when you can raise Occult to Legendary, but with just a +2 DC reduction that doesn't keep up with Legendary (+8) Occult skill (or other Legendary Knowledge skills).
Theoretically Lores can qualify for more than +2 DC reduction in specific cases, but since this is ALL Lores in general, I think it's fair and reasonable to limit it to just that +2 benefit. That leaves the general/superceding Knowledge skills like Arcana (as well as Lores) still relevant to invest in: Not just for their broader usage (beyond Recall Knowledge) distinguishing them at low levels, but with Master proficiency they surpass Bardic Lore until Legendary Occult is acquired. (and if you have higher WIS than INT, WIS-based Knowledge skills may surpass Bardic Knowledge earlier, even with just Trained) Since you need to keep up Occult proficiency if you want to get Expert Bardic Lore, you probably won't see any benefit for things releated to Occult once that hits Expert (yet Expert Occult is a Feat Tax as far as Recall Knowledge goes, since it doesn't directly help there). Considering it doesn't grant any special action economy for Recall Knowledge (like Ranger Monster Hunter), I don't think this is too powerful, and even think it's likely it was accounted for when designing the ability.
I'm not familiar with the new Loremaster Archetype, but it sounds like that Quick Study Feat is still mechanically sound even with the above benefit for baseline Bardic Lore because you can use the granted Lore for things besides Recall Knowledge, and actually being a specific Lore I would allow for more than +2 benefit when situationally appropriate (depends how narrow of a Lore it is, etc).
Can someone clarify what the point of bardic/Loremaster/gossip lore is if not lower DCs?
Is it about giving you a trained lore skill that you can use for most checks if you don’t have the right lore or knowledge skill? Which is better than having to roll untrained ?
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Can someone clarify what the point of bardic/Loremaster/gossip lore is if not lower DCs?
Is it about giving you a trained lore skill that you can use for most checks if you don’t have the right lore or knowledge skill? Which is better than having to roll untrained ?
Depends how much do you invest and how is meant to be the lower dc.
For an instance, A bard with bardic lore ( and just trained in occultism ), will have a check on any knowledge stuff or job equal to
Level + Int ( +1 circ with loremaster lore )
And a DC discount, if you allow it, which goes from -2 to -5
If we consider even just a -2
a lvl 5 bard will have
5(Level)+2(Trained)+1(Circ)+2(DC-2)+2(Int) = +12 on any lore check
A wizard could have Arcana or Craft
5(Level)+4(Expert)+4(Int) = 13There's really no comparison if you allow lower DC on knowitall lores.
And by lvl 15 it's even worse ( since a know it all character will become Expert with the lore, and eventually he could catch up with int ).
The advantage of such skills would imo be being able to roll a check regardless the situation, while expending a skill feat out of 10 to get a specific lore would mean dedication and need to have a "lower dc" when needed.
I don't think your comparison is fair.
- The Bard has also spent a class feat on Loremaster dedication, the Wizard hasn't spent any class feat.- The Wizard can use Arcana to identify magic items and learn new spells, while Bardic Lore has no other use than Recall Knowledge.
- Given the all-around utility of Arcana, the Wizard is going to increase his proficiency with levels, while the Bard is stuck at Trained until level 15, and that's only if he also increases his proficiency in Occult, prioritizing Occult over Performance.
- There are items giving +1 bonus to Arcana, Occult and so on, but not Bardic Lore.
Bardic Lore is a Lore skill, it should benefit from the lowered DC typical of Lore.
It's fairly easy for a Bard to be trained in almost all knowledge skills (my Bard is not at all focused on knowledge checks or Int skills and he's trained in Occult, Arcana, Society, Religion and Nature with no effort). Without using the lower Lore DC, being stuck at trained in Bardic Lore gives you nothing in exchange for the class feature or a class feat you have spent.
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I don't know how you can't see it: the Wizard who was not meant to be a knowledge expert, still manages to roll with +17 on knowledge skills he's only trained in, with a peak of +22 on his class-related knowledge. And this applies not only to Recall Knowledge, but also to identify items and learn new spells.
The Bard, who has spent a class feature and put points in Int to specialize into knowledge, only manages to roll with a +18, so +1 higher than the unspecialized Wizard, and only to Recall Knowledge (+21 is a stretch and only applicable in the rarest cases, i.e. when rolling knowledge about Bards).
And you are here saying that it's unfair? Indeed it is, but for the Bard! It's depressing! The only real edge the Bard gets on the Wizard is on rolls using Nature or Religion, since they rely on Wis rather than Int. But even then, if you're assuming that a Bard has 18 Int, then you have to take into consideration the possibility that the Wizard has 18 Wis, in which case he would be rolling them still with a +16. Not bad for a character who literally happened to be a know-it-all.
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Gray, you are assuming that a wizard would like to increase either arcana or society.
I'm only assuming max proficiency in Arcana, which is what any Wizard needs to learn new spells, and which is a staple for every typical Wizard build (since we are comparing to a typical Wizard build). The rest of the knowledge skills (or at least Nature, Religion, Society, Occult) are only trained, which is very easy to achieve on an Int-based class.
At the end of the day, we have a character specialized into knowledge, who has spent a class feature, who rolls with a +18 but only to Recall knowledge.
vs
A non-specialized character who rolls with +16/+17/+22 to Recall Knowledge, but also identify magic items, learn spells and any other use the skills might have.
Your concerns about game balance are ridiculous and unfounded.
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And the character will be also able to drop wis and increase 2 more skills that he wants to legendary.
And the Wizard will be also able to drop Cha and increase 2 more skills that he wants to legendary (since I've always only talked about Arcana...I don't know why you keep believing otherwise)
On the other hand, the other character will have to
- invest all its skills in knowledges ( while remaining not able to cover for all 4 ).
Arcana is free; Society, Occult, Nature, Religion are enough to cover the rest; this leaves 2 free skills + those from Background. More than enough.
[On the other hand, the other character will have to]
- increasing both Int and Wis ( instead of having the possibility to use Wis points for something else )
On the other hand, the Bard will have to increase both Int and Cha (instead of having the possibility to use Int points for something else)
- Remain with no skill points for other stuff ( while with bardic/gossip/loremaster lore the character will have 2 skills the character wants to legendary ).
You're repeating yourself. Wrong on both accounts as explained above: you still have skill points and there is only 1 Legendary skill involved.
You fail to realize that 2 class feats (choosing Enigma at 1st level is a class feat) and 1 legendary skill (that is not at all given for granted in a typical Bard build) is more than enough to justify a meek -2 DCs on Recall Knowledge and be better at that than non-specialized characters. And this is without even looking at the fact that Bardic Lore is, indeed, a Lore skill.
Your perception of what is balanced or unbalanced is not as accurate as you think it is.
There's another factor of significant importance:
Untrained Improvisation
With one General Feat, a Wizard (assuming an Int advantage & level 7+) can compare to the Bard who used their Muse or a Class Feat on it And both would benefit from the same DC advantage from the specificity of which Lore they could choose to emulate.
When (if) the Enigma Bard's getting Legendary Occult, there's an advantage until the Wizard gets their Apex item (which nearly all Wizards were bound to get anyway) which comes w/ +3 to all Recall Knowledge checks & Hypercognition 1/hour.
Heck, even a Bard should likely take Untrained Improvisation instead, along with Dubious Knowledge. :)
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Clearly what for you is overpowered, game-breaking, unbalanced etc, is not for me. Gliding over the fact that you're the one who's being changing things (e.g. you are the one who started comparing Bard vs Wizard), I've stated my opinions, and unless we are talking about rules, there is no point in discussing it any further.
But look, a snake!
I have got Snakes Lore. Snakes Lore can be used to identify snakes. Snakes Lore is an applicable lore to identify snakes.
Using the applicable Lore usually has an easy or very easy DC (before adjusting for rarity).
>> The DC for identifying this snake using Snakes Lore should be at least easy.
Meanwhile, the Bard:
I have got Bardic Lore. Bardic Lore can be used to identify snakes. Bardic Lore is an applicable lore to identify snakes.
Using the applicable Lore usually has an easy or very easy DC (before adjusting for rarity).
>> The DC for identifying this snake using Bardic Lore should be at least easy.
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Consider: The Loremaster Archetype gives a player Loremaster Lore, which is virtually identical to Bardic Lore.
The same archetype has a feat called Quick Study, which lets the player become trained in a specific lore each day.
If Bardic / Loremaster Lore granted the benefits of a decreased DC, that would significantly limit the effectiveness of selecting a more specific trained lore.
That would, to me, suggest that the Bardic / Loremaster lore is applicable in any scenario, but not considered specific for the purposes of decreased DC. And that's probably okay given that it takes a single 1st or 2nd level feat to access it. In at least a few scenarios I've been in, there are checks that can only be made by a Lore skill.
You could use the daily trained Lore to be even more on point and get a very easy DC, if you know what you are going to encounter that day.
Whether the DC for an applicable Lore is easy or very easy, it's up to the GM, with the only constraint being that it should be usually, at least, easy. A GM might rule that Bardic Lore can't give you more than the easy DC. But if that day you are expecting to inspect a Thassilonian artifact, then selecting Thassilonian Artifacts Lore as your daily trained Lore will get you very easy DC.
Agreed. I don't see Bardic Lore getting the VERY Easy -4 DC reduction because it's a universal ability that lacks specific rationale for specific DC reduction, but the baseline of Lore is Easy DC is the norm. With the -2 DC reduction, Lore skill (and Bardic Lore) has mechanical relevance VS Arcane/Occult/Social/etc skills with broader usage that also intersect with multiple Lore skills. So it seems straight forward reading of the rules, and reasonable justified as well. I would prefer a FAQ to say that (and rule out the higher -4 reduction which I don't think is called for, but lacks explicit rules to say no).
My personal thought on this is to provide the modifier for an Easy check for the "General" Lores, but not the Very Easy modifier for having the "Perfect" lore.
Seems like the application of the rules that allows for all considerations to be valid simultaneously.
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all arguments against the dc reduction. I have one thing. Unified theory 1 skill feat get arcane to legendary and they have a skill thats better than bardic lore and loremaster. So yea, i dont see an issue in the slightest with rhe "easy" dc reduction.
In fairness that's both a Legendary level Skill Feat, and only works on magic, not other skill uses.
I think the DC reduction is fine and warranted, but this argument doesn't really do a lot to support it.