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Fighter have more feats like Combat Grab and Dual Handed Assault, don't have to spend actions to gain Panache and are able to switch feats daily.
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Fighters also have Attack of Opportunity built in, earlier Perception increase and the boost to initiative, heavier armour, earlier armour proficiency increases, armour specialization, shield block if you want it, and LEGENDARY WEAPON PROFICIENCY.
Swashbucklers get plenty to keep up, but Fighters shouldn't be ignored.
Fighters get the Agile grace feat (which quite frankly Swashbucklers should get as well)
Swashbucklers are amazing, but Fighters start at Expert proficiency and finish in Legendary, that is unbeatable
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did someone just call a fighter 1-trick. i suppose if you tried really really hard you could make a 1 trick fighter
A Finesse Fighter will generally get to 18 Str by 10th (less than 14 Str would be a blow to damage), making Heavy Armor & its Specialization worthwhile. -5 speed for +1 AC & some DR? Okay.
(I'd expect them to emphasize getting a speed bonus magic item and perhaps Sudden Charge so they're viable nearly always.)
And while you're looking at a 1-handed Fighter, only Bulk keeps them from taking up a shield instead, opening up another chain of abilities.
And having high Fort saves in the frontline is pretty important with all those poisons, stenches, many of the gaze attacks, and death effects.
The Swashbuckler makes for a better finesse skirmisher, yet is pretty much relegated to that role.
A finesse Fighter can skirmish too, or hold the line. One could easily build a PC capable of both, maybe even tossing in an archery feat for outdoors. And the Fighter with the better AC would make better use of Riposte than a Swashbuckler. Also they can load up on more Reactions. Personally, I don't like dealing with all the shifting between Pinache & Finishing so there's that too.
I think if I wanted to emphasize skirmishing & skills, I'd likely go MCD Rogue. And if I really wanted some serious skirmishing, I'd go with Monk, maybe with the new Peafowl feats if I want the sword imagery.
If the venue were more limited, like say on a ship, then maybe I'd go Swashbuckler. Then again, I wouldn't want to duplicate another's PC. :)
I do prefer some of their high level feats, but that'd be after quite a bit of play.
It just struck me that skirmishing & Riposte don't sync that well if the only attacks monsters (less so humanoids) are making are their primary one + a special ability.
swashbuckler is more flavorful, fighter is mechanically superior
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Dex as an attribute is nigh-worthless in 2e. It only provides Reflex saves and Acrobatics. It doesn't actually give any AC bonus, as most characters can get a similar armor boost from heavy armor. Putting more into strength gives you the same AC. And you can't use armor specialization. Even Wisdom is initiative now.
Reflex saves, acrobatics, stealth, thievery. Stealth can be commonly used for initiative if you build for it. Heavy armor always comes with a speed decrease, light and medium don't. Ranged weapon attacks always use dexterity.
The stats are pretty equal imo.
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Dex as an attribute is nigh-worthless in 2e. It only provides Reflex saves and Acrobatics. It doesn't actually give any AC bonus, as most characters can get a similar armor boost from heavy armor. Putting more into strength gives you the same AC. And you can't use armor specialization. Even Wisdom is initiative now.Reflex saves, acrobatics, stealth, thievery. Stealth can be commonly used for initiative if you build for it. Heavy armor always comes with a speed decrease, light and medium don't. Ranged weapon attacks always use dexterity.
The stats are pretty equal imo.
I literally laughed at the idea that Dex is useless. Is it the monster stat is was in 1E? No. But with the advent to finesse weapons, in some ways it can be better.
I can 100% say that it is MUCH easier to have a 10 Str PC than a 10 Dex one. Only Champions and Fighters don't need Dex for AC. Everyone needs Dex for ranged attacks.
My Sorcerer, who doesn't wear armor or carry weapons (level 7, have literally NEVER swung a weapon) doesn't really have to worry about bulk so what does he need Str above 10?
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Dex as an attribute is nigh-worthless in 2e. It only provides Reflex saves and Acrobatics. It doesn't actually give any AC bonus, as most characters can get a similar armor boost from heavy armor. Putting more into strength gives you the same AC. And you can't use armor specialization. Even Wisdom is initiative now.Reflex saves, acrobatics, stealth, thievery. Stealth can be commonly used for initiative if you build for it. Heavy armor always comes with a speed decrease, light and medium don't. Ranged weapon attacks always use dexterity.
The stats are pretty equal imo.
I literally laughed at the idea that Dex is useless. Is it the monster stat is was in 1E? No. But with the advent to finesse weapons, in some ways it can be better.
I can 100% say that it is MUCH easier to have a 10 Str PC than a 10 Dex one. Only Champions and Fighters don't need Dex for AC. Everyone needs Dex for ranged attacks.
My Sorcerer, who doesn't wear armor or carry weapons (level 7, have literally NEVER swung a weapon) doesn't really have to worry about bulk so what does he need Str above 10?
And I'd add that arguably all martials should want to be decent with ranged attacks (except perhaps Monks who can be the ranged attack and return the same round). You don't want to stretch out the party given so many helpful spells operating at 30', how minions can overwhelm nowadays, and every flyer can fly/strike/fly away.
And why would one underestimate Reflex saves with PF2's crit fails, and a whole lot more monster abilities that target Reflex. It's another important defense to keep solid.Except for builds that rely on four (!) other stats, Dex seems a must-boost to shoot for 18.
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And, important note, Bulwark only gives its bonus against damaging effects. It'll help you against a Fireball, but not a Grease spell.
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Funny, I was just thinking that a swashbuckler (except for Gymnasts) can get away with just enough strength to carry their gear.
Like the 2 damage difference between Str 14 and Str 18 doesn't seem that significant, since Swashes don't tend to make a lot of attacks.
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Funny, I was just thinking that a swashbuckler (except for Gymnasts) can get away with just enough strength to carry their gear.
Like the 2 damage difference between Str 14 and Str 18 doesn't seem that significant, since Swashes don't tend to make a lot of attacks.
This is also true. Strength on a Swashbuckler tends to be a very low percentage of their damage.
I mean, if you're doing Finishers pretty much all the time (and you should be), by 10th level you're probably doing 7d6+2 (for an average of 26.5) on top of your Str mod. Whether your Str Mod is +1 or +4 at that point is verging on irrelevant. I mean, technically that +3 to Str Mod is almost 10% of your damage...but doing 90% damage for +3 to another Ability Modifier is very possibly a trade worth making.
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And, important note, Bulwark only gives its bonus against damaging effects. It'll help you against a Fireball, but not a Grease spell.
Unless you're a Sentinel, then picking up this seems useful:
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2066
"Mighty Bulwark Feat 10
Archetype
Source Advanced Player's Guide pg. 191
Archetype Sentinel
Prerequisites Sentinel Dedication
Thanks to your incredible connection to your armor, you can use it to shrug off an incredible array of dangers. Your bonus from the bulwark armor trait increases from +3 to +4, and it applies on all Reflex saves, not just damaging Reflex saves."
Funny, I was just thinking that a swashbuckler (except for Gymnasts) can get away with just enough strength to carry their gear.
Like the 2 damage difference between Str 14 and Str 18 doesn't seem that significant, since Swashes don't tend to make a lot of attacks.
This is also true. Strength on a Swashbuckler tends to be a very low percentage of their damage.
I mean, if you're doing Finishers pretty much all the time (and you should be), by 10th level you're probably doing 7d6+2 (for an average of 26.5) on top of your Str mod. Whether your Str Mod is +1 or +4 at that point is verging on irrelevant. I mean, technically that +3 to Str Mod is almost 10% of your damage...but doing 90% damage for +3 to another Ability Modifier is very possibly a trade worth making.
I like that Swashbucklers aren't about hitting with full Strength a bunch of times, but knowing when and where to throw that dramatically stylish finisher.
It's nice to have a few martials that can thrive without a bunch of Strength.
It's nice to have a few martials that can thrive without a bunch of Strength.
If anything the problem is more the opposite. It's much harder to build a functional Strength based Investigator or Swashbuckler (and only one of the five rogue rackets supports it), while Barbarians are really the only martial that can't work great with Dex focused builds (and even then it's mostly just because they don't get to pick their key stat and most finesse weapons are also agile). Likewise, if you're trying to pick up weapons on a non-martial, Dex based is usually the better choice there too.
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It's nice to have a few martials that can thrive without a bunch of Strength.If anything the problem is more the opposite. It's much harder to build a functional Strength based Investigator or Swashbuckler, while Barbarians are really the only class that don't work great with Dex focused builds (and even then it's mostly just because they don't get to pick their key stat and most finesse weapons are also agile).
Champions are also very rewarded for going Str, and it's still the best route to damage for Fighters, Rangers, and Monks, so while those three have Dex-builds, I think Str builds are still dominant among melee builds in total, especially with Ruffian Rogues and armor users in general getting some extra nice stuff in the APG.
Dex builds are totally valid and there are a lot of them, but actually a Str Investigator seems pretty easy to me (you take the Sentinel Archetype, grab Medium Armor Proficiency at 1st if Human, and maybe leverage combat maneuvers). Swashbuckler can probably do the same to some degree, though it's harder given their Dex being their Key Ability and their need for Acrobatics.