What are people's thoughts on Warpriest vs Bard for a support caster that can jump into melee now and again?
I really haven't dived deeply into either class in this edition, and I'm wondering which one is the more successful buffer/melee or brings the most to the table.
The new Warrior muse giving bards access to all martial weapons has me wondering about builds.
I've got an idea for a Warrior Bard that starts with 16 Str, 16 Cha that I want to try. Inspire Courage helps, for sure. Also they keep all martial proficiencies, vs Warpriests losing it at as they level.
On the Warpriest side: Medium armor really helps the build stay a little less MAD. A STR-based Warrior Bard almost needs to spend a General Feat on Medium Armor Proficiency (or heck, maybe the Champion Archetype, since they have the stats) to have a reasonable AC. And the Warpriest can go Sentinel for Heavy Armor that will upgrade to Expert on its own. And if you pick a Deity with a good weapon, you get Expert proficiency at 7th level. (Sure, you lose out on Expert spells in the trade, but if you are a support caster you probably don't care).
Neither class is going to be "strong" in melee. I say that because there are no, or only very few, class features or feats that support melee combat. Compare to Fighter, Monk, et al for feats that help you in melee.
That said, Bard has its compositions going for it. Sure they help the whole party, but they are also helping the bard too, right? So... Maybe you have a 16 STR if you tried really hard for that. Then you Inspire Courage, and it's like you DIDN'T inspire courage but had an 18 STR when you strike in melee... right? But of course... without anything fancy like double slice or sudden charge or etc. etc. etc.... you're not going to be outstanding.
Cleric has a few feats that help out if your deity's weapon has a d4 die, and I think there are a few feats that allow you to do a little extra damage, but again, by and large, Cleric is a spellcasting class. Most of what Warpriest does is help you to survive being a front line cleric. Better shields, good armor..
If I had to choose, I'd say that Cleric will have a better time on account of having better armor. Bard is the better buffer as the compositions are categorically excellent, don't cost spells/day, and have great range. Both are compelling from the spellcasting side of things, each in their own way. Bard buffs better and Occult is a pretty versatile spell list. Divine heals better, especially so when it's a Cleric.
At the end of the day, any class with a high STR score will be OK at melee combat, assuming you can keep them alive. However neither of these classes are designed to be a melee striker.
Another consideration is ability scores. You'll want a high Wisdom, Charisma and Strength for cleric. Bard would only need Strength and Charisma. Both want at least something in Dex and Con. So you're starting to need everything, and that won't work, so... Bard would be easier in that regard as you only need Cha instead of Wis and Cha.
Final note, it's possible through Multiclass Archetype or perhaps some of the forthcoming archetypes from the Advanced Player's Guide to gain access to the feats that would really drive the concept you're going for. So keep archetypes in mind as you plan out your character.
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They both can easily obtain access to Armor Proficiency and Shield Block, which is half the battle right there.
Really the difference is in their Traditions - and both Traditions offer healing, buffing, utility, and/or summoning spells, meaning you can prioritize your ST, DX, and CON scores over spellcasting scores if you want to retain your frontline staying power.
I'd say it's about a wash.
What are people's thoughts on Warpriest vs Bard for a support caster that can jump into melee now and again?
I really haven't dived deeply into either class in this edition, and I'm wondering which one is the more successful buffer/melee or brings the most to the table.
The new Warrior muse giving bards access to all martial weapons has me wondering about builds.
Considering Bards can buff themselves to levels that Warpriests need to spend spell slots on, and can do that basically all-day every day, they are much better offensively on a constant basis. Their healing isn't as strong, but still present, and a good use of your spell slots if you're already strong on damage.
But, Warpriests do have access to much more healing (or Undead-slaying) and burst damage via Channel Smite and Harm (or again, Heal if it's against Undead/Fiends). And can reach the same levels as Bards if they pre-buff with spells like Heroism. Their spell list is a bit lackluster otherwise though.
As long as you recognize melee (or archery) will never be your primary role. When push comes to shove, you'll need to resort to spells with your martial aspect being a nice addition when you manage to have an action left. Something to factor in if you plan on relying on a shield/Shield or Compositions.
And don't forget Con. Both Bard & Cleric are going into battle wounded compared to a normal martial and with the AC of the lowest non-raging martials. Having a low Con just amplifies that. And neither class really improves skirmishing. (So maybe get a Reach weapon?)
That said I think access to Magic Missiles (so you can dump Cha) favors the Bard, while lots of self healing and access to various types of damage (to trigger Weaknesses hopefully) favor the Cleric. Unfortunately the Cleric has several stats to juggle. MCD Champion does seem the best route to avoid Dex, though that's true of Bards too.
Neither is strong at martial pursuits, but they can buff themselves into relevancy. It's easier for the bard to do so, than the warpriest funnily enough, because the bard need only perform not spend a spell.
In either case I'd be more likely to recommend using a bow primarily, and only carrying a melee weapon as a backup. You're still going to be squishy compared to any martial dedicated class due to lower hp.
MCD Champion does seem the best route to avoid Dex, though that's true of Bards too.
MCD champion is the best bet at low levels for a Bard, but in the late game, having gone Sentinel for heavy armor saves you a 12th level class feat you’d need to get Expert Heavy. The Warpriest can go Sentinel right away, while the Bard needs a General Feat to pick up Medium Armor. That’s fine for Humans with Versatile Heritage or General Training, but delays others.
Neither class is going to be "strong" in melee. I say that because there are no, or only very few, class features or feats that support melee combat. Compare to Fighter, Monk, et al for feats that help you in melee.
That said, Bard has its compositions going for it. Sure they help the whole party, but they are also helping the bard too, right? So... Maybe you have a 16 STR if you tried really hard for that. Then you Inspire Courage, and it's like you DIDN'T inspire courage but had an 18 STR when you strike in melee... right? But of course... without anything fancy like double slice or sudden charge or etc. etc. etc.... you're not going to be outstanding.
Cleric has a few feats that help out if your deity's weapon has a d4 die, and I think there are a few feats that allow you to do a little extra damage, but again, by and large, Cleric is a spellcasting class. Most of what Warpriest does is help you to survive being a front line cleric. Better shields, good armor..
If I had to choose, I'd say that Cleric will have a better time on account of having better armor. Bard is the better buffer as the compositions are categorically excellent, don't cost spells/day, and have great range. Both are compelling from the spellcasting side of things, each in their own way. Bard buffs better and Occult is a pretty versatile spell list. Divine heals better, especially so when it's a Cleric.
At the end of the day, any class with a high STR score will be OK at melee combat, assuming you can keep them alive. However neither of these classes are designed to be a melee striker.
Another consideration is ability scores. You'll want a high Wisdom, Charisma and Strength for cleric. Bard would only need Strength and Charisma. Both want at least something in Dex and Con. So you're starting to need everything, and that won't work, so... Bard would be easier in that regard as you only need Cha instead of Wis and Cha.
Final note, it's possible through Multiclass Archetype or perhaps some of the...
This kind of changes a bit with the APG. There are a few specialty archtypes that basically fight stuff better in different ways that unlock feat support for combat related stuff you otherwise would not have. So its way more viable if people are looking for a battle bard or a more fighty warpriest than before.
As long as you recognize melee (or archery) will never be your primary role. When push comes to shove, you'll need to resort to spells with your martial aspect being a nice addition when you manage to have an action left. Something to factor in if you plan on relying on a shield/Shield or Compositions.
And don't forget Con. Both Bard & Cleric are going into battle wounded compared to a normal martial and with the AC of the lowest non-raging martials. Having a low Con just amplifies that. And neither class really improves skirmishing. (So maybe get a Reach weapon?)
That said I think access to Magic Missiles (so you can dump Cha) favors the Bard, while lots of self healing and access to various types of damage (to trigger Weaknesses hopefully) favor the Cleric. Unfortunately the Cleric has several stats to juggle. MCD Champion does seem the best route to avoid Dex, though that's true of Bards too.
The eldritch archer archetype I think probably would synergize well with a bit more combat oriented bard. They have the spell casting to do it right off the bat and the archtype gives you access to some fun bonuses/flavor for magical archery attacks.
Don't Bards get a more martial muse option in the Advanced Player's Guide?
Don't Bards get a more martial muse option in the Advanced Player's Guide?
Yes it looks pretty good and gives you martial weapon access right away . The only issue though is it does not give you improved armor access so still a bit questionable as a front liner but potentially a really good archer.
Hmmm, you can multiclass Bard to get Inspire Courage, but you can't multiclass Cleric to get Divine Font.
I think that might factor into the decision.
Oh, and while you're dipping bard grab the martial weapon proficiency feat from the battle muse.
Oh wait, that doesn't advance unless you're a bard. Dang
Hmmm, you can multiclass Bard to get Inspire Courage, but you can't multiclass Cleric to get Divine Font.
I think that might factor into the decision.
Inspire Courage doesn’t come online for a MC bard until 8th Level. Sure, you can cast Bless until then, and eventually you won’t mind dedicating your 1st level slots to it, I guess.
Edit: the bard also gets a low level healing Focus spell option in the APG. You’ll need to spend a feat to pick it up, though.