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Took a first read through the playtest, and here are some notes/questions I have. I will admit I didn't read all of the components, but mostly focused on the core mechanics.
1. With base stats being based on fractional tier, I think it would be a big help to have a "class chart" to give you those values, like this one
2. Just to be clear, when it says "Minimum Mech MP", that means that is at least how much MP you need to consider a mech of that tier. It also means that if I go into the next bracket, I don't necessarily need to say my mech is 1 tier higher to keep my costs in check, correct?
3. Mech HP seems very odd to me. A tier 1 Juggernaut has 20 HP and 2 hardness, which to me seems very low. That being said, the rules do say
At tier 1 and every tier thereafter, a mech gains additional Hit Points equal to its HP Advancement multiplied by its tier
To me, this means the HP of a Juggernaut chassis (assuming nothing else added) is
T1 - 20
T2 - 40
T3 - 70
T4 - 110
T5 - 160
T6 - 220
T7 - 290
T8 - 370
T9 - 460
etc
That does seem more like it, but means that HP increases fast, with a T20 Juggernaut having a base HP of 2320!
Those are my first impressions, curious on peoples thoughts about these subjects
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Having read it twice, now I think that you're reading the multiplication item properly, and I'm not sure that's what was intended when they wrote it.
That's what I got from it, as well, and it really stands out.
If I were to talk about my "feelings" on the system, I think that the emphasis on multiple operators reads very much like an attempt to prevent "every PC has their own mecha" style adventures, which - if I'm being honest and I were to speak as someone who has done a LOT of work for another mecha system in the past - isn't really what people are looking for when they start talking about mecha in their games.
The multiple-operator press, combined with the similarity in the build process to starships, feels to me as though we're supposed to treat mecha as though they're "itty bitty starships," and not Giant Robots.
I dunno, maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not immediately seeing the potential for Gundam/Macross/Orguss/Escaflowne style adventures, here.
I'll give it a third read and see what I think.
Having read it twice, now I think that you're reading the multiplication item properly, and I'm not sure that's what was intended when they wrote it.
That's what I got from it, as well, and it really stands out.
If I were to talk about my "feelings" on the system, I think that the emphasis on multiple operators reads very much like an attempt to prevent "every PC has their own mecha" style adventures, which - if I'm being honest and I were to speak as someone who has done a LOT of work for another mecha system in the past - isn't really what people are looking for when they start talking about mecha in their games.
The multiple-operator press, combined with the similarity in the build process to starships, feels to me as though we're supposed to treat mecha as though they're "itty bitty starships," and not Giant Robots.
I dunno, maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not immediately seeing the potential for Gundam/Macross/Orguss/Escaflowne style adventures, here.
I'll give it a third read and see what I think.
I think you get the gundam vibe with multiple higher than recommended tier mechs for the PCs. There are one-two seater mechs for the battletech or gundam style of mech combat, and there are the colossal mechs for the power rangers/pacific rim style fight.
Hate to double post, but I think you aren't supposed to iteratively add HP when up tiering a mech.
Under 'creating NPC mechs' the playtest says:
Be aware that mechs designed in this way have
statistics best suited for PCs, and as a result such mechs have fewer
Hit Points, stronger defenses, lower attack bonuses, and slightly lower
damage per attack than a creature of comparable CR.
So, I think it's actually:
T1 - 20
T2 - 30
T3 - 40
T4 - 50
T5 - 60
T6 - 70
T7 - 80
T8 - 90
T9 - 100
...
T20 - 210
Which is pretty low on the hit point scale, I think it's around a decent PC's stamina points. I have no idea if their other defenses make up for that or not, but I suppose that's what the playtest is for.
I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to iteratively add HP either, though as written you do explicitly "a t tier 1 and every tier thereafter [gain] additional Hit Points equal to its HP Advancement multiplied by its tier". As compared to the CRB's statement for PC HP of "At 2nd level and at every level thereafter, you gain the
number of Hit Points listed in your class’s description". So while probably just a horribly mis-printed bit of text, as written mechs do get quadratic HP advancement.
If it gets fixed though, and Juggernaught does wind up with 210 base HP at Tier 20, that doesn't seem too horrible, as on top of that it will have:
43 Shield Points (roughly equivalent to a PC's Stamina Points, but they regain 20 per round, and can add 5d8 to that for 2 PP)
12 Hardness
Possible bonus HP from Legs (+28 from Treads is the best I could find)
Possible bonus HP from Arms (+20 from Tough Arms is the best I could find)
An EAC and KAC of 39 and 40 respectively just from the frame
Possibly more HP and/or SP from other parts
So I think they'd probably be fine. That said, this *is* a playtest, so it's only right to play it as written first...
I was playing around and I built a legionnaire at tier 11.
Base HP = 33 (10 frame, 8 treaded, 3 reinforced frame)
Advancement was 13 (9 frame, 1 treaded, 3 reinforced frame)
At tier 11 I calculated (as I read it)
I read the rules as at every tier I get advancement * tier.
So every tier I get 13 * 11 = 143
143 * 11 = 1573
1573 + 33 (base) = 1606
I don’t know if I interpreted that incorrectly or if the math is off. But that seems to much. Where did I go wrong?
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I also think it is not supposed to be quadratic advancement or advancement over the sum of levels.
Michael Smith, it could be that the text is mentioning the tier twice, wrongly. Then the HP would just be 33 + 13*11 = 173, which seems much more reasonable (and in line with mech weapon damage scaling).
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Having read it twice, now I think that you're reading the multiplication item properly, and I'm not sure that's what was intended when they wrote it.
That's what I got from it, as well, and it really stands out.
If I were to talk about my "feelings" on the system, I think that the emphasis on multiple operators reads very much like an attempt to prevent "every PC has their own mecha" style adventures, which - if I'm being honest and I were to speak as someone who has done a LOT of work for another mecha system in the past - isn't really what people are looking for when they start talking about mecha in their games.
The multiple-operator press, combined with the similarity in the build process to starships, feels to me as though we're supposed to treat mecha as though they're "itty bitty starships," and not Giant Robots.
I dunno, maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not immediately seeing the potential for Gundam/Macross/Orguss/Escaflowne style adventures, here.
I'll give it a third read and see what I think.
Hmm it does allow you to create multiple mechs, but not at first level. Like at second level you could each have tier 1 mech and at level 20 each player could have tier 15 mech.
I think this works well enough since trying to have one operator mechs be as strong as multi operator mechs would be kinda weird. And they clearly do want to accommodate to both styles of play, they after all did give multiple mechs per single character as option in one example.
Would be interesting to see analysis of math of whether single tier 20 mech with 4-6 operators is better than 4-6 tier 15 single operator mechs
I also think it is not supposed to be quadratic advancement or advancement over the sum of levels.
Michael Smith, it could be that the text is mentioning the tier twice, wrongly. Then the HP would just be 33 + 13*11 = 173, which seems much more reasonable (and in line with mech weapon damage scaling).
I agree. When I did that I was like WHOA that seems off.
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Just throwing this out there, but squeezing is a part of the Tactical Movement rules. By RAW this appears to allow Mechs to squeeze, so Huge frames could actually fit in Large spaces.
I don't *think* this is intended, but it could lead to future content interactions being odd? We already have magic items that allow you to modify your effective size for squeezing with Creatures :P
Just throwing this out there, but squeezing is a part of the Tactical Movement rules. By RAW this appears to allow Mechs to squeeze, so Huge frames could actually fit in Large spaces.
I don't *think* this is intended, but it could lead to future content interactions being odd? We already have magic items that allow you to modify your effective size for squeezing with Creatures :P
I actually do not see a problem with that.
Squeezing doesn't mean "thing gets smaller" usually, but "thing moves around in a smaller space". Basically, a Huge Mech uses a Huge amount of space to be mobile and agile, dodge, etc.A squeezed mech is as big as before, but uses less space and can not dodge and move around as effectively (see penalties for squeezing).
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Got a few questions:
1) What size is your typical operator? Huge mechs can get 1 to 2 operators, but... is it 2 Medium operators? Is a Large operator takes up 2 spots? I'm asking this because you will likely to encounter a mech piloted by a Ryphorian (Medium) and its Dragonkin (Large) partner.
2) Are 2-slot weapons actually two-handed weapons? The Flame Doshko and the Frostspear look like two-handed weapons.
3) Does the Battle Rod act as TWO weapons, like a double wepaon? If combined with the Assault Arms, and Dual Strike, that would make sense.
4) What kind of proficiency is required to pilot a mech?
5) What class features can be used while piloting a mech? Could you for instance use your Solar Weapon?
6) Do vehicle related stuff work on mechs, including themes?
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Why does shield regeneration behave so differently in and out of combat?
At the start of its turn, a mech regains a number of Shield Points equal to its tier, though its total can’t exceed the mech’s maximum Shield Points.
Shield Points regenerate out of combat automatically at a rate of 2 per hour.
A tier 1 mech regenerates 10 SP/min during combat, which is 300 times faster that out of combat. A tier 20 mech without enhanced shields can fully recharge its shields three times every minute during combat but takes nearly a day to do so out of combat. I can't find a justification for this in the text.
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During normal operations, the shield regeneration is done at a safe, sustainable rate. In combat, systems override these limits, operating shield regenerators at their maximum capabilities, which, without regular repairs would cause them to burn out in less than a day, perhaps.
There is a reason why the Enterprise (NCC 1701 no bloody A, B, C or D) didn't cruise around at warp 8 all the time. For short periods they could reach that speed, but if they did it all the time, they would need an entire engineering staff of Scottys to keep from breaking down. You don't want the shield generators breaking down while you're out on a stroll, but when it comes to 'get me shields before that plasma cannon wipes us out' you ant those generators working as hard as they can. You can fix them afterward, if you are still alive.
I mean, that's all fine and well from a story standpoint, but from a strictly game-mechanic rule, unless they put something in about the shield generators actually burning out somehow, it doesn't solve the problem Jimbles brought up.
And that rule could very well be added later on to answer the question. I would worry that it would only add complexity without adding depth, which long-term would just mean more book keeping.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you overall, but I don't feel it's properly addressed or explained in the text as it stands.
During normal operations, the shield regeneration is done at a safe, sustainable rate. In combat, systems override these limits, operating shield regenerators at their maximum capabilities, which, without regular repairs would cause them to burn out in less than a day, perhaps.
There is a reason why the Enterprise (NCC 1701 no bloody A, B, C or D) didn't cruise around at warp 8 all the time. For short periods they could reach that speed, but if they did it all the time, they would need an entire engineering staff of Scottys to keep from breaking down. You don't want the shield generators breaking down while you're out on a stroll, but when it comes to 'get me shields before that plasma cannon wipes us out' you ant those generators working as hard as they can. You can fix them afterward, if you are still alive.
I like the way you narratively frame this, but it still stretches credulity from a numbers standpoint. I totally agree that you can't sit at warp 8 all the time, but what about an extra 30 seconds? I think most mechs can fully recharge their shields in that time in combat.
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Jemstone, sometimes, you have to find the answer in the mirror, rather than look to the devs to solve every little thing. This isn't an adversarial game that requires everything to be spelled out to settle disputes. The rules are more like the Pirate Code in PotC. Guidelines. The final arbiter is the GM unless you are in Society play, and even there, you will get table variation where the rules are not exact. And that explanation is flavor text, not a rule. Flavor text suggests that all phase frames can teleport around the battlefield, but when you look deeper, you see that in order to do that, they have to have a piece of equipment installed at an additional cost, that can only be installed on phase frames because the other frames lack the magical elements that let it work.
Jimbles, you don't know when they will burn out. You might have the engineering specs, but you don't know if you got the one that was put together when the guy was coming back to work hung over, or the contractor was in a rush (or greedy) and used inferior materials to save time/money, or if Fred took your mech out for a joyride and put an extra 10 minutes of maximum output on it. So the safe thing to do is to not run it past its standard operating level unless it's a matter of life or death. After all, if another combat comes up before it finishes recharging, you can kick in the higher levels then. When aliens, etc. push the Enterprise past its safe limits, Scotty's first priority is slowing her down as quickly as is safe (also don't want the nacelles tearing off because you slammed the brakes).