Changing an energy type...


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


Just as a general discussion question, DMs and players....

Would it break the game to change the energy type of a spell for roleplaying reasons for classes other than Sorcerer?

For example, I am playing a bard and for role-playing reasons, I don't like the negative energy of the Grim Tendrils. It just feels a little dark for the concept I created....blah blah blah...not the important part.

What if I made the spell work exactly the same but changed the negative energy to sound, call it Notes of Power (for argument's sake). Instead of a negative energy lightning bolt (essentially what it is), it would become a bolt of sound from the bard.

Do you all allow changes like that? if not, how come? Would it break the game?

Thanks for your time


6 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Would energy type changes, in general, break the game? Not usually.

Can they be a power increase to a given spell? Definitely.

In this case, for example, negative energy, which does not affect unliving targets (like undead and constructs) is being replaced with sonic damage, probably the least resisted damage type you can pick. If there's no downside being applied to balance it, that is a straight power upgrade of the spell, not just a flavor change.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Changing an energy type won't break the game for sure.
And in my opinion, even if Hammerjack is right about Sonic being one of the best energies in the game, the power gain between Sonic and Negative Energy is marginal. Most creatures immune to Negative Energy are easily recognizable and as such you'll avoid using Grim Tendrils against them.

As a side note, if you want to change for an energy type that is closer in terms of power you can choose Mental. Mental immune creatures are easily to recognize and they are quite many, so it should be as strong as Negative Energy.


Since it is a lvl 1 spell, the first question that comes to mind is

Quote:
Would this be the only exception or there will be more "requests" the more levels the players are going to get?

Sonic damage is, as Hammerjack already pointed out, probably the least resisted damage type someone could pick ( I happened to had the same issue even with 3.0 edition if I recall correctly ), and because of that it could lead to some issues to give other spells the sonic trait.

Here's the list of all sonic "effects" ( spells/focus/Equipment ) on Nethys 2e

https://2e.aonprd.com/Traits.aspx?ID=147

If you check both spells ( sound burst and shatter ) and eventually compare them to any elemental spell, you will probably understand why is the sonic trait limited:

- lower damage if compared to spells of the same level
- lower damage progression
- stricty requirements ( Shatter = Range 30 feet; Targets 1 unattended object, while Sound Burst = Range 30 feet; Area 10-foot burst ) and
- No spells past lvl 2
- limited accessibility ( not available for Arcana tradition. Shatter available for primal, sound burst for divine and both spells for occult tradition, which is the one meant for support/control ).

-edited to add sound burst to divine tradition-

Personally, I'd simply add a flavor description to any existing spell instead of modifying them.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Sound burst is available to Divine.


HammerJack wrote:
Sound burst is available to Divine.

Thanks.

I did a fast ctrl+f search on the archives and I should have missed it.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I mean, no but also yes...this is one of those things where starting out doing this has very little effect unless you have a very good idea of what sort of foes you'll be fighting and can chose your damage types accordingly, OR if you are allowed too much free reign to just pick whatever damage types you like.

You're a Bard, right? If you were, for example, to take some Occult damaging spells and shuffle them around so that you get Fire, Lighting, and Cold damage, that would greatly expand your tool box of things you are able to deal with in a way that is normally reserved for Primal and Arcane casters. It increases the power of the Occult Spell list as a whole.

As such, if you're going to be changing around damage types, I'd try and restrict them to the types that are normally found within your Spell Tradition.

Changing Negative to Sonic feels appropriate for a Bard, but after looking at spells, there are shocking few that do Sonic damage, and no level 1 spells. Is that intentional because the designers felt Sonic to be too powerful or is it just a matter of they haven't gotten to them yet? Hard to say. I do feel that to be on the safe side, Mental might be a safer damage type to change the spell to, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that as long as you don't get too crazy with changing around other spells, you should be fine and any power increase shouldn't be really bad or too noticeable.


Thank you everyone this is exactly what I was looking for, appreciate the feedback.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

There was a metamagic feat in 3.0 called energy substitution, I don’t see anything like that in Pathfinder 1.0.

https://dndtools.net/feats/magic-of-faerun--20/energy-substitution--881/

Could be homebrewed to fit into PF 2.0.


I'm torn because while it wont break the game, being able to generally choose different energy types is going to be an upgrade. Especially choosing sonic because there are few things that resist sonic.

Switching between cold, fire, electricity, and acid isn't quite as bad. And in PF2 I think they've re balanced things some so there aren't as many creatures that are fire resistant.

In PF1 everybody chose acid damage if they could because there was so little that resisted it (sonic too, but there were fewer options that allowed that).

As a GM I'd probably ask you if you were okay with it thematically being not negative energy, but in terms of mechanics it still being negative energy for how it affects creatures.

I realize that it's not totally comforting, but for example switching from negative to sonic means now you can hit Undead where you couldn't before.

Again, it wont ruin the game by any stretch, but could make your character stronger if you were permitted to just generally select any energy type instead of the default.

As a GM, I might be willing in this specific case to give you an option between negative and positive energy, not that it would help much.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I’ll throw my hat into the ring for a change to Mental damage being a better choice here. Negative can’t hurt undead, and many undead are also Mindless, so Mental will have the fewest changes in how the spell will actually work. Also, bardic music has always had a mind-affecting feel to it, so thematically it makes just as much sense as sonic damage.

Additionally, I would be somewhat inclined to approve this for Grim Tendrils given the RP reasoning... but I would in no way be allowing energy substitutions across the board. If a bard doesn’t want to be dealing Negative damage, ok. But I’m not going to allow other energy substitutions. And in no way am I going to be allowing that change to touch fire cold electricity acid. Or even force really. Bards already get magic missile if they want it.


Since sonic is a bit more powerful, you can weaken the effect a little to counter it.

My suggestion.

Scream
Fort save.
2d4 sonic damage in a 30 line, deafened for 1 minute.
+Stupefied 1 turn on a crit.


Honestly, just keep it consistent and it'll be fine. Change it only to one type of damage an have choosing a different energy type require taking it again as a different spell. The differences it'll make is barely relevant, as since if the damage type is less favourable against a certain foe, you were going to use a different spell regardless.


I think the issue is that sonic is considered to be better as there are not too many resistances to sonic.


I would not normally allow a change of the energy type for a spell. There are a lot of great 1st level occult spells that are more traditionally bard thematic, if you don't think grim tendrils is appropriate for your character, you do not lack for other options.

That being said, I would also not be against working with a player to create a first level area of effect damage spell for a bard. For example, from PF 1e you had 'Chord of Shards' that let you do 2d6 piercing damage in a cone, reflex negates, and you needed to have a bardic performance in effect. I would not be against converting Chord of Shards to PF 2e. It would be required that you have a composition with an auditory component in effect to cast it, and it would do 2d6 piercing in a cone with a basic reflex save.

Another damage dealing spell from 1e that could be converted to 2e would be ear piercing scream (though that was a single target spell).


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I think jdripley had the right idea. If you're gonna allow a change, make it to mental damage. That should work for most any bard theme and it has a lot of overlap with creatures immune to negative damage, mindless undead and constructs. There will be some undead it works on now but also various other mindless creatures it won't work on. Seems pretty balanced.


Well, this is an old thread, but it is kind of the topic I'm looking for. Does anyone know if they brought the energy replacement feat into Pf2? As a sorcerer with a dragon bloodline, I would like to throw more spells with my bloodline energy type, but the ones that exist don't fit the character theme well.


There's Energy Fusion, which lets you sacrifice another spell slot to increase the damage and split the spell's damage between two types.


Red Metal wrote:
There's Energy Fusion, which lets you sacrifice another spell slot to increase the damage and split the spell's damage between two types.

But nothing that swaps say, the damage from a cone of cold to fire. Crud.


I would love something like this for a flame curse oracle. Some sort of reality warping spell that changes the type of damage dealt for a bit would be huge.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Second Edition / General Discussion / Changing an energy type... All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.