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I have created a guide to the Second Edition Fighter.
HERE IS THE FIRST DRAFT. I would appreciate your comments and corrections.
Enjoy!
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FYI, I also have a guide to the Second Edition Wizard HERE.
Looks great! Still working through it now, but a couple of things I've noticed:
You say there's no use for fighter class DC yet. It's a minor thing, but AFAIK relics do use it.
In your entry for the Sorceror archetype, you state that e.g. the angelic bloodline gets heal as the bloodline spell. The bloodline spells are the focus spells, so for the angelic bloodline it is the halo.
Sooo... the only reference to class DC's in the relics section I can find is under the DC for Relic Gifts. Iiiiiiii'm still gonna say that there is no use for Fighter DC at this time (incredibly rare corner cases aside).
Yeah, I probably just misread halo as heal. I'll fix it.
Under the Strength fighter, you say that your dexterity won't be important for reflex saves once you're in full plate. You should probably note that bulwark is only for reflex saves against damage effects, not tripping, entangling, ledge catching, etc.
Okay. Did not know that. Makes sense.
Thanks!
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Before rating Power Attack as blue, I'd warn people about how its relative utility drops off as Striking weapons come into play, making it mainly a tool for bypassing resistances. Also probably good to warn people that in a 3 attack action scenario (which obviously should not be presented as the thing to always do), that Power Attack following a strike is more likely to increase expected damage at the low levels where it does increase expected damage against creatures without resistance.
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Class DC should be used for critical specialization effects, such as brawling.
If you want to do any calculations to compare how effective something is you can use this
Class DC should be used for critical specialization effects, such as brawling.
If you want to do any calculations to compare how effective something is you can use this
Gotta tell you, it takes a smarter person than me to understand that. It might as well be in Latin. But I've heard lots of people praise it, so I'm sure it's good. I'm not a numbers guy.
There are a number of places, particularly in the Ancestry section, where it's clear that parts were copy-pasted from your Wizard guide. For example, the goblin Cave Climber feat says you should be flying as a 9th level wizard, and the halfling ancestry starts by saying "There’s nothing wrong with a halfling wizard" which, while true, is somewhat irrelevant to a fighter guide.
Yep. Oops. Clearly, this is why professional have editors!
Before rating Power Attack as blue, I'd warn people about how its relative utility drops off as Striking weapons come into play,
Does the utility really drop off? Only if you think of it in terms of percentages, right? It still adds the same bonus, does it not?
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There are a number of places, particularly in the Ancestry section, where it's clear that parts were copy-pasted from your Wizard guide. For example, the goblin Cave Climber feat says you should be flying as a 9th level wizard, and the halfling ancestry starts by saying "There’s nothing wrong with a halfling wizard" which, while true, is somewhat irrelevant to a fighter guide.
In the multi-classing archetypes section, you describe the spellcasting feats as adding spells to your repertoire. That's only true for bard and sorcerer – cleric, druid, and wizard spellcasting uses spell slots you can change from day to day. In most cases you will have a standard loadout, but you do retain some flexibility.
You have classified Deadly Simplicity as a blue feat for the cleric multi-class, which I do not understand. The point of Deadly Simplicity is to let clerics with a simple favored weapon catch up with those with a martial weapon, but as a fighter you already have full access to martial weapons. There can certainly be flavor benefits to being an Asmodeus-worshiping fighter and use a mace to deal 1d8 damage instead of 1d6, but on the other hand you could just use a warhammer and deal 1d8 without trickery.
Wild shape is not a good long-term strategy for a fighter with the druid dedication. That's because animal form tops out as a 5th level spell, and after that you need to take feats to keep up. But since you can only take feats half your level or lower, by the time you can take e.g. Ferocious Shape you have already outgrown the benefits. There is still some point in taking the wild shape stuff, but its going to be more a matter of utility (mainly speed) than power.
To some degree, this also applies to choosing polymorph spells with druid spellcasting, though there the difference is smaller (you're "only" two spell levels behind). For example, dragon form gives you AC 18+level, but at 16th level that's about 4 points lower than your normal AC (heavy armor +6, rune +2, expert proficiency +4). I...
Good points. I'll consider them more carefully when I'm more awake!
Wild shape is not a good long-term strategy for a fighter with the druid dedication. That's because animal form tops out as a 5th level spell, and after that you need to take feats to keep up. But since you can only take feats half your level or lower, by the time you can take e.g. Ferocious Shape you have already outgrown the benefits. There is still some point in taking the wild shape stuff, but its going to be more a matter of utility (mainly speed) than power.To some degree, this also applies to choosing polymorph spells with druid spellcasting, though there the difference is smaller (you're "only" two spell levels behind). For example, dragon form gives you AC 18+level, but at 16th level that's about 4 points lower than your normal AC (heavy armor +6, rune +2, expert proficiency +4). I...
You are missing that you get the heightened forms so at 16th level your Dinosaur Or Dragon form is 21+Level AC. You also get to use your own to hit and athletic modifiers. Potentially a +2 status modifier. So not too far behind.
Yes you are taking this for fun, and reach.
Bravery: Your Will saving throw advances to Expert. Ironically, because you now turn successes into critical successes, from 3rd through 6th level, your Will save is now your best save.
This seems a bit misleading. The success to critical success upgrade only applies to fear effects, not all will saves.
It's also not that great since a successful save against fear will often leave you only frightened 1, against which Bravery basically makes you immune anyway.
Dual-Handed Assault - A minor bonus to damage. S’alright. Build: One-Handed Fighter.
That's actually a pretty significant bonus to damage if you're wielding a weapon with the two-handed trait, especially once you get some striking runes added. With a Striking Bastard Sword, the damage goes from 2d8 to 2d12+2, an average of +6 damage.
Unified Theory - If you have a high Arcana skill, this skill is Blue. Otherwise, it’s Red.
That statement is a bit useless since you need to be legendary in arcana to get Unified theory in the first place. :)
Cloud Jump - Now Jackie Chan feeds his inner you.
Should be blue. Requires some prior investment to really shine, but man is it broken. You get it at 16, so with Assurance and legendary proficiency, you can leap 90 feet without fail (assuming your speed is at least 30 ft). Add Quick Jump and you can cover 90 feet with a single action, ignoring difficult terrain. You'll probably have no need to Stride ever again.
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Your comments about the Expertise Heritage Feats
Dwarven Weapon Expertise - By 13th level, you should already be a Master or Legendary in your chosen weapon. This feat will not help you.
These do help if at level 13 when you decide to go to Legendary with a group of weapons. Especially if you have chosen something odd like Polearm or Bow or Brawling. This feat will give you Legendary in Dwarven weapons as well. That can round out your character's weapon options quite well.
The level 1 feat doesn't do this for Fighters (it works better for Barbarians)
A Gnome Flick Mace is one handed not a two-handed flail
Are you aware Brutish Shove has the Press Trait? So it is only allowed on your second/third swing. I wouldn't take it ever.
I'd have rated Power Attack lower, and Furious Focus higher. In my mind that is when it becomes good.
May main take away from the Fighter Feat list is that it has a few gems, but there is room to multiclass if you want.
Voluntary flaws don't necessarily tank your secondary stats unless you're a human or something similar. You can basically, with voluntary flaws, swap something your ancestry boosts with something it has a flaw in; for instance you could take a -4 to your charisma as a gnome (leaving you at 8) to get a 12 in STR. I think. Maybe it's a ten?
Are you aware Brutish Shove has the Press Trait? So it is only allowed on your second/third swing. I wouldn't take it ever.
I'd have rated Power Attack lower, and Furious Focus higher. In my mind that is when it becomes good.
May main take away from the Fighter Feat list is that it has a few gems, but there is room to multiclass if you want.
Brutish is really nice, it's a completely free push, and the flat footed helps a third strike nearly as much as furious focus (5%)
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Before rating Power Attack as blue, I'd warn people about how its relative utility drops off as Striking weapons come into play,Does the utility really drop off? Only if you think of it in terms of percentages, right? It still adds the same bonus, does it not?
Percentages.
And, more importantly, how it stacks up against using 2 actions to strike without using a valuable class feat.
If you slap it into some spreadsheets, you'll see that it drops off against enemies that resist your weapon, but it does still have some utility. It just does not remain beneficial against all enemies, or in all action sequences, and how good it is in the situations where its useful varies a lot by level, as striking runes, furious focus, and the levels where power attack adds an extra die give it a lot of ups and downs.
Not to be a gloomweasel, but you're putting this out there mere weeks before the APG hits. You'd better be ready to go back to the drawing board then :P
On the other hand, people will definitely need some help digesting that and figuring out what's good in it.
Oh yes. That's on my radar. I considered waiting, but figured this way I could find out what I'd gotten wrong so far before getting more stuff wrong with the APG. :-)
A Gnome Flick Mace is one handed not a two-handed flail
Did I say it was? Weird. I'll fix it.
Are you aware Brutish Shove has the Press Trait? So it is only allowed on your second/third swing. I wouldn't take it ever.
I am aware. So you'd never take a feat with the Press trait?
I'd have rated Power Attack lower, and Furious Focus higher. In my mind that is when it becomes good.
Surely Furious Focus makes Power Attack better, but at low levels Power Attack inn the hands of a fighter is amazing.
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Voluntary flaws don't necessarily tank your secondary stats unless you're a human or something similar. You can basically, with voluntary flaws, swap something your ancestry boosts with something it has a flaw in; for instance you could take a -4 to your charisma as a gnome (leaving you at 8) to get a 12 in STR. I think. Maybe it's a ten?
I'm just never going to say anything nice about voluntary flaws. I loathe 'em.
If you slap it into some spreadsheets, you'll see that it drops off against enemies that resist your weapon, but it does still have some utility. It just does not remain beneficial against all enemies, or in all action sequences, and how good it is in the situations where its useful varies a lot by level, as striking runes, furious focus, and the levels where power attack adds an extra die give it a lot of ups and downs.
Can you imagine putting that caveat on half the feats out there, or more? The guide would be 400 pages long. At the level where it comes up, Power Attack is a good feat. When you level up, most Level 1 class feats will be less useful. And all feats will be more or less useful depending on your build.
Hey, I really appreciate these comments! Even if I push back on some of them, I want you to know how grateful I am that you have taken the time to read my guide and offer your criticism. It's super helpful.
And honestly, it's a wonderful way for me to learn the game. I learned a lot in researching the guide and now I'm learning a lot from you folks.
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If you slap it into some spreadsheets, you'll see that it drops off against enemies that resist your weapon, but it does still have some utility. It just does not remain beneficial against all enemies, or in all action sequences, and how good it is in the situations where its useful varies a lot by level, as striking runes, furious focus, and the levels where power attack adds an extra die give it a lot of ups and downs.Can you imagine putting that caveat on half the feats out there, or more? The guide would be 400 pages long. At the level where it comes up, Power Attack is a good feat. When you level up, most Level 1 class feats will be less useful. And all feats will be more or less useful depending on your build.
I actually think there are a lot of low level feats that do a very good job of retaining value. Power attack, specifically goes through a distinct change in application, which is why I suggested calling it out. At level 1, when you first get it, it can be a straight damage increase (though a more modest one that it initially appears). And I definitely used it that way playing my low level fighter.
It changes to being an anti-resistance tool that you don't use against general enemies. Knowing that it stops being something you want to make more general use of is important, as opposed to something like Sudden Charge that remains useful for the same purposes as you progress.
Even if you don't like them for whatever reason, please don't print inaccurate information in your guide.
Even if you don't like them for whatever reason, please don't print inaccurate information in your guide.
Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying. Please tell me what was inaccurate.
As a multi-class druid, you will never get to take Dragon Shape or Monstrosity Shape, because those are too high level.
What? Why? Assuming you're talking about a fighter with the druid archetype, he can gain dragon form by 16th level and monstrosity form by 20th.
You imply it's an objectively bad idea by exaggerating the severity of losing out on a single ancestry boost. It by no means gives you "terrible" stats, nor makes you a one-trick pony.
I feel strongly that it is a poor choice. But I did note that my position was not a common one. In my upcoming revision, I'll change the word "terrible" to "poor" and note that it's just my opinion.
I actually think there are a lot of low level feats that do a very good job of retaining value. Power attack, specifically goes through a distinct change in application, which is why I suggested calling it out. At level 1, when you first get it, it can be a straight damage increase (though a more modest one that it initially appears). And I definitely used it that way playing my low level fighter.
It changes to being an anti-resistance tool that you don't use against general enemies. Knowing that it stops being something you want to make more general use of is important, as opposed to something like Sudden Charge that remains useful for the same purposes as you progress.
On reflection, I can see your point and I've made that change in my upcoming revision.
I might put a not on the rating of Battle Cry similar to the note about the longbow vs shortbow decision. I think Battle Cry is a very solid feat if you're good at intimidation, but it does suffer on the kind of campaign full of wide open spaces where you're unlikely to be within 30 ft when you roll initiative.
Are you aware Brutish Shove has the Press Trait? So it is only allowed on your second/third swing. I wouldn't take it ever.
I am aware. So you'd never take a feat with the Press trait?
I'd have rated Power Attack lower, and Furious Focus higher. In my mind that is when it becomes good.Surely Furious Focus makes Power Attack better, but at low levels Power Attack inn the hands of a fighter is amazing. ** spoiler omitted **
If you like it you like it. It is your guide.
I am concerned that any Press ability that has an effect that requires a hit is at -5. Shoving is useful. But your second attack is much less likely to hit.
Making someone flat footed for your third attack less so. It is only for you - till the end of your turn. Often you won't make a third attack, but even so we are talking at maybe only hitting on a 20 anyway.
Is this power for fighters with an agile weapon?
I can see uses for these. But my preference would probably be to steal something from a multiclass instead.
I am concerned that any Press ability that has an effect that requires a hit is at -5. Shoving is useful. But your second attack is much less likely to hit.
Making someone flat footed for your third attack less so. It is only for you - till the end of your turn. Often you won't make a third attack, but even so we are talking at maybe only hitting on a 20 anyway.
Is this power for fighters with an agile weapon?I can see uses for these. But my preference would probably be to steal something from a multiclass instead.
I understand your point and mostly agree with it. My guide certainly gives lots of love to archetypes, which I think are an excellent way to broaden your character's abilities and deepen their role-playing characterization. However, I still have to consider the vanilla fighter and what might be useful.
Honestly, I think that Brutish Shove is probably better than Green but not quite Blue. Maybe it's the bestest green at that level. Anyway, I'll make a note about the Press trait.
As a multi-class druid, you will never get to take Dragon Shape or Monstrosity Shape, because those are too high level.What? Why? Assuming you're talking about a fighter with the druid archetype, he can gain dragon form by 16th level and monstrosity form by 20th.Assuming you take all the spellcasting feats, you will be able to cast dragon form and monstrosity form using spell slots. But you won't be able to take the Dragon Shape and Monstrosity Shape feats that let you use wild shape to cast auto-scaling versions of those spells. So at level 20, you will be able to cast the 8th level spell monstrosity form, which is balanced as a combat form for a 15th-16th level spellcaster.
I'm currently playing a 6th level elemental sorcerer, and I greatly enjoy the 3rd level version of animal form. However, the biggest advantage I get from it is flexibility – getting access to either really high land speeds or alternate forms of movement. The melee attacks are a great improvement over my normal ones, but they're not quite as good as the party champion. This is, I think, as it should be – casting a spell shouldn't let me sub in for a proper martial, but it should get me to a point where I don't embarrass myself.
I haven't done the math, but I assume the same goes for the other polymorph spells: combat-wise they should get you close to, but not above, the ability of a similar-level martial. But since a fighter already is great at fighting, the combat stuff from a polymorph spell shouldn't help them much.
I agree completely. And I have done (a half-assed version of) the math in my guide to wizards. Your conclusions are correct.
What do you think that means for this guide? Am I rating something (wild shape, I assume?) too highly?
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While I generally agree with most of your opinions, there are a few things I would note.
On a non-opinion based thing, you recommend Antimagic Field as a potential 8th Level spell for archetypes that can get you it. And while I'd generally strongly agree with this, I feel that it is at least important to note that Antimagic Field is one of only two Rare spells in the game, which means that there is a very good chance it will not be available.
Uncommon choices I can understand recommending, since all it should take is asking your GM "Hey, what do I have to do to get this?" and you shouldn't assume the GM won't let you unless they have a very good reason to do so. Rare choices though? I would never assume there could be a way for me to get that, and it's totally legitimate for a GM to just tell you "no".
Not saying it's not a good choice. It's phenomenal, completely trivializing many otherwise intense challenges, hence the rarity. But it should at least be noted that there is no guarantee you'll be able to get it at all.
Now for some actual opinion based things...I disagree on a few of your points on Hellnight Armiger. You give Mortification Blue, but I really think it should be Green at most with maybe a stipulation that it can be Blue if you're planning to put a bunch of points into the Hellknight archetypes. If you're not doing that, then getting 2ish resistance to one of the three physical damage types is...not bad at all, but certainly not Blue. If you're already planning on taking a ton of those other feats you can get a lot of use out of it, but it really only works amazingly with specific builds.
I also agree with the already stated opinion that Brutish Shove is being way over-valued here. Honestly, I'd rank it Green at best, maybe even Yellow. It certainly seems to be the worst of your Level 2 feat options to me. It does a decent bit, but all those things that it does sort of conflict with each other. Getting your opponent Flat Footed is great, but since it cannot be taken advantage of until your third strike, it really is only turning your -10 penalty into a -8, which still leaves you with much better options for that last action.
Meanwhile, Shove can be nice, but either you're going to follow your enemy with the Shove so that you can try and take advantage of that Flat-footed for your final attack in which case it didn't do much except in specific niche circumstances, or you're going to use it to create distance and get out of there in which case the Flat-footed was pointless.
Not bad, but not great. Aggresive Block I think is much better, Intimidating Strike I think is much better, and Lunge IMO is the actual Blue choice of Level 2 Fighter Feats given that against many foes it will force an Attack of Opportunity as they approach you.
Brutish shove is great. Third strikes are often a good choice for fighters, they often hit on a 15 against equal level opponents, 13 with flat footed. Even better against lower level opponents. And that's ignoring the free forced movement.
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You might wish to point out why the Flickmace is considered the most powerful weapon in PF2 to this point. It's not just that it gets you respectable damage with reach and only occupies one hand- it's the critical specialization for flails.
If you crit with the flickmace (something you're likely to do more often than people with lower attack bonuses), your target is knocked prone (no save!). Once prone, they will provoke an attack of opportunity if they elect to stand up or crawl away. This is both vicious and reliable.
Sorry, I was a bit unclear. In the second paragraph above, I was talking about choosing polymorph spells with your regular spell slots. A 16th level fighter with Expert Druid Spellcasting has a 6th level slot they can use for dragon form, if they want. But a 6th level dragon form isn't that great if you're already a 16th level fighter.A 16th level fighter/druid could also pick up Ferocious Shape, which will add the forms from dinosaur form to their list of animals into which they can wild shape, and wild shape does auto-scale. But dinosaur form tops out as a 7th level spell, so you're still a bit behind a proper wild druid. Moreover, that's pretty much as far as you can go with wild shape – you could take Elemental Shape or Plant Shape at 20th level, but those also top out at 7th level. As a multi-class druid, you will never get to take Dragon Shape or Monstrosity Shape, because those are too high level.
I hardly ever consider this route as its simpler to get the automatically heightened focus spells from the feats. You also miss out on the +2 status bonus. Even for a full Druid, I think it is better to keep your top level slots for other spells.
For a fighter, 14 Wisdom and 2 feats by level 4, gets you in with Druid Dedication, Basic Wilding for Order Explorer for WildShape. Maybe later level 12 or 16 you can take a 3rd feat to get into another shape. Thats it. You want actual spell slots? Ok but that is more feats, and is a really suboptimal way to get into battle form spells.It is fair that the fighter misses out on the top forms. He does have the to hit, hit points, athletics, and attack of opportunity to really work his King Kong/T-Rex forms.
Aggresive Block I think is much better, Intimidating Strike I think is much better, and Lunge IMO is the actual Blue choice of Level 2 Fighter Feats given that against many foes it will force an Attack of Opportunity as they approach you.
You're not wrong on the value of those feats. My estimation of Intimidating Strike rose as I wrote the guide. I probably will change that to blue.
If you crit with the flickmace (something you're likely to do more often than people with lower attack bonuses), your target is knocked prone (no save!). Once prone, they will provoke an attack of opportunity if they elect to stand up or crawl away. This is both vicious and reliable.
I used your post, almost word-for-word, as a footnote in the revision. :-)
If you're already planning on taking a ton of those other feats you can get a lot of use out of it, but it really only works amazingly with specific builds.
That's the point of any blue rating. Not that it's great for everyone, but that it has the potential to be great for someone. If you have a sufficient number of Hellknight feats, Mortification can give you a Resistance of 10 or 11 to one of the three physical damage types. I think that's pretty great.
Should be blue. Requires some prior investment to really shine, but man is it broken. You get it at 16, so with Assurance and legendary proficiency, you can leap 90 feet without fail (assuming your speed is at least 30 ft). Add Quick Jump and you can cover 90 feet with a single action, ignoring difficult terrain. You'll probably have no need to Stride ever again.
I added this as a footnote in the revision.