What could go wrong if you just removed the nonlethal damage from Burn?
This is more of a theoretical discussion than an actual House Rule I was thinking of adding, but what are the merits of the nonlethal damage mechanic? It seems to give a lot of unnecessary and fiddly math. Burn is already capped by total and per round, so without the nonlethal damage, you still shouldn't be able to do any infinite exploits.
Should using kineticists without the nonlethal damage be a common house rule?
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First thing I think of is the huge amount of HP they would have now without the nonlethal damage evening it out. Yes, they still have that huge HP with Elemental Overflow's Con bonus normally,mbut again the Nonlethal keeps it down. Keep no of.
Second is that the kinetic healer talents become a lot better, in my opinion, since they won't inflict Nonlethal on anyone.
Thanks for the input. Kinetic Healer is a problem. I can think of many alternative versions to keep it from being abused, but it is an added complication.
Is the HP really that huge? I feel like a barbarian would have a similar amount of HP with its d12 hit die and constitution bonuses from rage, and I've never heard anyone talk about barbarians having too many hit points.
Anything that removes superfluous BS is okay with me. The nonlethal damage part of burn is stupid. I'm sure they had some great ideas about balance and whatnot, but it's execution is just janky and dumb.
So what if the Kineticist has a lot of HP? That is what happens when you invest in your Constitution. To purposefully nerf that benefit/take it away, is absolutely clownshoes. You invested in it, you earned it, it should be yours.
Six billion ways to abuse Dexterity and Charisma... but anything to do with Constitution gets the banhammer, or even worse, the nerfbat. Looking at you Scarred Witch Doctor...
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Thanks for the input. Kinetic Healer is a problem. I can think of many alternative versions to keep it from being abused, but it is an added complication.
Is the HP really that huge? I feel like a barbarian would have a similar amount of HP with its d12 hit die and constitution bonuses from rage, and I've never heard anyone talk about barbarians having too many hit points.
Barbarian's aren't walking around with full rage HP all day. Rage is temporary, only effects two stats, and reduces Armor Class. Yes, it allows rage powers, but temporary again.
Elemental Overflow, on the other hand, increases three stats and provides fortification. Burn, while badly done, balances it out.
Also: see the aether or earth defensive talents. Kineticists can be little walls of meat with no burn problems. This is more an image problem than a technical problem IMO.
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Burn doesn't limit kineticists...it keeps them in check. They have a very high floor, removing burn is going to blow a big ol hole in their ceiling.
Also: see the aether or earth defensive talents. Kineticists can be little walls of meat with no burn problems. This is more an image problem than a technical problem IMO.
Again, Barbarians have decent DR while having equivalent combat hitpoints. Does the kineticist have a significant edge over the Barbarian in another area to make up for the relatively fewer combat hit points?
I don't think the math agrees with you Melkiador.
A barbarian has about 2 HP/level more than a kineticist, 4 more when raging, and a couple of points of DR by L10 with no further investment.
If burn has no effect on HP then force ward increases the kineticist's HP by (level/2 + .5) * level; from about 6th level to more than the barbarians'.
Similarly flesh of stone gives DR = kineticist level. Much much more than the barbarian, even if you get stalwart etc.
If burn is no problem then some kineticists will appear to be made of rubber.
So, some of the defensive powers would need their scaling dialed back a bit. The easiest option would be to just cap them. Are aether and earth defense the only issues?
I still wonder if being a rubber man is a big deal. That kineticist would have sunk all of his burn on defenses at the beginning of the day and not have much left to give for increasing his abilities in combat.
Also: see the aether or earth defensive talents. Kineticists can be little walls of meat with no burn problems. This is more an image problem than a technical problem IMO.Again, Barbarians have decent DR while having equivalent combat hitpoints. Does the kineticist have a significant edge over the Barbarian in another area to make up for the relatively fewer combat hit points?
What level range? Cause at high level they can earthquake at will, at mid level they can aoe grapple.
They also don't suffer from sudden barbarian death syndrome.
Is the HP really that huge? I feel like a barbarian would have a similar amount of HP with its d12 hit die and constitution bonuses from rage, and I've never heard anyone talk about barbarians having too many hit points.Classes that do melee usually are the ones that get more hp. Classes that do magic get less hp. Kinetisist have a lot more in common with casters than melee classes. Yes, even if you make a melee Kinetisist.
The really big change would be building a Kinetisist. Normally you push con not for the extra damage, but because it lets you burn more. If you don't have to worry about losing hp to burn, you also don't need to buy up your con a whole lot. The more efficient build would be to stop at a 14 (or even a 12) con and buy a higher dex.
If you want to take away the hp damage from burn, you might limit the total amount of burn a Kinetisist can take to his con bonus. That way they still have a reason to push con.
Beyond which, its ...unlikely to me that barbarians in the end actually have a similar amount of hit points once the character is built. A kineticist should be rolling 18-20 con, they're a "caster" and con is their casting stat, most save dc's for infusions, how much burn they can take, all links in to Con. Most barbarian builds i see hover around 14 con. Which means out of the gate their Hp are identical.
Toughness is as close to a must take for kineticists as it comes. Its a feat for a "free" burn. don't generally see that taken in barbarian builds.
After that, its important to realize that again, Con is probably the focus of their stat boosting item, vs strength for the barbarian. so over the course of their career thats 1 to 3 more hp/level than the barb. Add in elemental overflow and while the hp "can" level out, the realities of building and playing the classes lean heavily toward kineticist having more hp max, but regularly playing with fewer due to burn. You remove that burn and they're probably going to outshine the barb's effective hp.
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And if it becomes a reality that the Kineticist has more HP than the Barbarian... is this a problem?
I think Burn is poorly executed, but it does serve a purpose. However, I don't know if its purpose is necessary.
The Barbarian having lots of HP is expected, they only hit one target at a time, and they suffer from sudden death if they are careless.
The Kineticist having lots of HP to spare is something to worry about because it's possible for them to hit more than one target at a time? Why is it such a big deal if the Kineticist has a bunch of HP?
There are much scarier ways to end a fight than reducing HP to zero. Kineticist still has weak Will saves...
Because the majority of deaths come from hp reaching 0
Because the majority of deaths come from hp reaching 0
Yes, but what does it matter if the Barbarian dies before the Kineticist?
Why does it throw a spanner in the works for game balance if the Kineticist has more HP than the Barbarian?
Is it just an unwritten rule that the Barbarian will always have the most HP, and if anyone is capable of surpassing that, they must be nerfed?
If you are going to kill the whole party, no amount of HP is going to save any of them... so, literally, what does it matter if the Kineticist has more HP than the Barbarian? Why is that a balance issue?
Because the barbarian fights on the front lines, where hp damage is common, and the kineticist can fly away and engage without limit from like 800 feet if they need to.
Also metakinesis is a thing and unless you want limitless quickened maximized blasts you keep burn or completely rework the class.
Thanks for the input. Kinetic Healer is a problem. I can think of many alternative versions to keep it from being abused, but it is an added complication.
Is the HP really that huge? I feel like a barbarian would have a similar amount of HP with its d12 hit die and constitution bonuses from rage, and I've never heard anyone talk about barbarians having too many hit points.
Barbarian's aren't walking around with full rage HP all day.
Unchained Barbarians kinda do. They do not "borrow" hp, they get full actual temp hp for their rages.
But aside from that, my houserule is a Kineticist doesn't take the non-lethal damage until they hit a threshold of 1 + Con Modifier. After which, any burn spent has a 50% chance of incurring ALL the non-lethal damage at once.
Also metakinesis is a thing and unless you want limitless quickened maximized blasts you keep burn or completely rework the class.
Burn would still be there and capped as it is now. There just wouldn’t be nonlethal damage paired with it.
A kineticist can’t choose to accept burn if it would put her total number of points of burn higher than 3 + her Constitution modifier (though she can be forced to accept more burn from a source outside her control).
I was thinking it was already capped... even playing up your Constitution like a 9th level casting stat... say, 30? That's ~13 max. Which is not a small number, per se, but it is also not unlimited.
And, even if you CAN just fly away and engage from like 800 feet with limitless quickened maximized blasts... doesn't mean that you SHOULD.
Who builds a character for that? Is that fun? I am being serious.
I understand that blasters are a thing. And I understand that spontaneous casters can be a bit cyclical, if not downright repetitive at times.
But the ability to play that character from 1-20, or play with that character...? How does that character not just become the equivalent of an NPC? Just repeating background effect that occurs every encounter...
Martials do the same thing every encounter, too. But life can be struggle when you can't just fly around, so encounters stay somewhat challenging, thought provoking, meaningful, and fun.
Same thing with the Slumber Witch. There's no way people use that EVERY encounter... right? As a player at that table, I would get bored of CdG'ing sleeping enemies. Like ask you to do something else, bored. Or, I just stop wasting a night out of my week to do the same exact $#!+ again as last week.
So, it's easy for me to be in favor of removing the nonlethal damage from Burn. There's no possible way someone is going to abuse this just so they can trivialize everything... because if they do, they will probably find themselves playing alone (probably still doing the exact same thing, probably not even noticing that the party is gone).
This is why I like gestalt so much. Because you CAN build insane god-like players, but you don't have to worry about being repetitive. And, when everyone is nuts crazy powerful, shenanigans seems less out of place.
More importantly, shenanigans become less necessary. You can have a party with four completely different full BAB, 9th level casters, with all good saves. The shenanigans required to make it through the average day are zero. The only shenanigans that show up are purely for fun... sometimes you need to stretch your wings, no doubt. But even then, the shenanigans seems cheeky and fun.
Trying to make OP builds either way that focus on abusive shenanigans is just tragic and sad.
I’m wondering how many people didn’t realize Burn has a hard cap. Maybe this changed their minds about the merit of just removing the nonlethal damage.
I also wonder how many tables run burn but ignore the caps.
Removing the hp reduction makes burn just another pool ability that refreshes once a day.
That's kind of the point. It'd be different if the nonlethal damage were fun, but it's just cumbersome and leads to odd "build taxes". So, your favored class bonus will be for hit points. You'll take toughness sooner than later. Your stat buffs will go towards constitution first.
Now, imagine the kineticist if there were no nonlethal damage. Would you feel as compelled to maximize your hit points? Your favored class bonus might go to skills instead. Your stat bonuses might go towards dexterity or strength first for attacking. Toughness wouldn't be more meaningful to you than for any other class. You would have more interesting choices to make.
Kineticist is balanced by burn doing nonlethal damage. If you remove the nonlethal damage and don't balance it, that's (obviously) a massive boost in power for the class. Primarily in staying power and less need for resource managment.
So that's the effect of your proposal.
On the other hand, I find at higher levels damage often is either so enormous that it won't matter all that much, or isn't the defense that is targeted (saves usually).
I wouldn't allow this change except under extraordinary circumstances.
It's obviously a boost to the class, but I wouldn't say it's massive. It's not like the nonlethal will likely ever kill you anyway, it just might take you out of the fight for a couple rounds until you can get healed. And I don't think it changes the kineticist's tier at all. It's still going to be generally weaker than an inquisitor or a sorcerer as a "ranged-combatant-with-benefits".
If we were really worried, we might lower the burn cap from Con+3 to Con+1(minimum 1), but I don't think that's necessary.
We learned a lesson about con as casting stat from the scarred witch doctor. It needs a balancing force...the non lethal is it.
We learned a lesson about con as casting stat from the scarred witch doctor. It needs a balancing force...the non lethal is it.
It's not really about "casting stat" though. Half of your DCs are based on Dexterity. The problem with the witch is that it's such a SAD class, so stacking that one stat is too obvious. The kineticist is still MAD.
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We learned a lesson about con as casting stat from the scarred witch doctor. It needs a balancing force...the non lethal is it.
The number one thing I learned from the Scarred Witch Doctor is to always save a copy of the things you like, so you have the version you like when the inevitable errata ruins it.
We learned a lesson about con as casting stat from the scarred witch doctor. It needs a balancing force...the non lethal is it.It's not really about "casting stat" though. Half of your DCs are based on Dexterity. The problem with the witch is that it's such a SAD class, so stacking that one stat is too obvious. The kineticist is still MAD.
the only DC's based on dexterity are the aoe infusions, and not even all of them.
the actual dangerous infusions like foe throw, wood's poisons, the energy drain on void. All con based.
Foe throw is dex based. All form infusions are.
The DCs for form infusions are calculated using the kineticist’s Dexterity modifier instead of her Constitution modifier.
It feels like there's a lot of misinformation about the kineticist.
No its that i didn't realize foe throw was a form infusion and thought it was a substance infusion.
Doesn't really change that the form infusions are in general aoe, and the substance infusions are where the real power comes in.
In general the form infusions determine if or how you hit the target. The substance infusions are rider effects on doing damage or alter the damage itself. The important part is that you don’t even get to apply a substance infusion unless you hit or deal damage with the blast. So, if you’re ignoring dexterity, then you are going to have to rely on the handful of save for half damage form infusions to do anything, which is going to cut into how much burn you can use in a round. The point is that kineticist is not a SAD class at all. Stacking constitution isn’t needed if you don’t take the nonlethal damage.
In general the form infusions determine if or how you hit the target. The substance infusions are rider effects on doing damage or alter the damage itself. The important part is that you don’t even get to apply a substance infusion unless you hit or deal damage with the blast. So, if you’re ignoring dexterity, then you are going to have to rely on the handful of save for half damage form infusions to do anything, which is going to cut into how much burn you can use in a round. The point is that kineticist is not a SAD class at all. Stacking constitution isn’t needed if you don’t take the nonlethal damage.
The thing about that is that its...honestly not that hard to hit. con primary dex secondary. As you level you not only get a boost directly to hit, but you also get a boost to your dex stat from elemental overflow. The kineticists chance to hit is basically identical to full BAB classes and better access to touch attacks than any of them but gunslinger.
** spoiler omitted **
Only because for some godawful reason they decided to give it an inherent + to int rather than just leaving it an int caster
** spoiler omitted **Only because for some godawful reason they decided to give it an inherent + to int rather than just leaving it an int caster
It's meant to be used by orcs, not half-orcs. But that's another can of worms.
It's meant to be used by orcs, not half-orcs. But that's another can of worms.** spoiler omitted **Only because for some godawful reason they decided to give it an inherent + to int rather than just leaving it an int caster
It had been being used by halforcs long before that errata. It was just bad errata.
It's meant to be used by orcs, not half-orcs. But that's another can of worms.** spoiler omitted **Only because for some godawful reason they decided to give it an inherent + to int rather than just leaving it an int caster
It's meant to have its casting stat be Constitution. Everything else is just hackjob to fix a nonexistent problem. The archetype was perfectly fine with Constitution as its casting stat.
It worked for Half-Orc and Orc without issue. Ogrillon were the only ones who really outperformed the rest when taking pre-errata Scarred Witch Doctor. But the Ogrillon are, and always have been, a powerful race... so nothing really changed there, either.
The errata introduced more balance issues than it solved.