Ok, silly build I've been thinking about for a long time, I've done versions before but I want to make the best possible version.
Concept: to make the best possible Melee Improvised Weapon combatant who uses the Bard/Skald cantrip Summon Instrument to summon guitars to use as a weapon.
Feats: Catch Off-Guard, Improvisational Focus, Shikigami Style and subsequent feats.
Possible 1-2 level dips for Summon Instrument - Daredevil Bard or Spellwarrior Skald
Possible classes:
Cad Fighter with dip
Slayer with a dip
Empty Hand Monk with a dip (Downside, must be Lawful)
Hinyasi Brawler with a dip (Downside, Hinyasi and Shikigami Style don't appear to work together)
Magus with Two-World Magic Trait (Benefit, No Dip! Downside 3/4 BAB)
Any Thoughts? Any class options I should consider along with these?
I'd say there's no downside to Magus (3/4 BAB is honestly more or less an illusion when you can enhance your weapon at level 1 with a +1 enhancement, +2 at level 5, etc).
Gloomblade Fighter would work as a way to "summon" an instrument (as long as you can say you are "proficient" with the guitar it's fine) and you'd only need a one level dip to make it work.
1 round casting time means the magus can't use spell combat on it which isn't ideal. Also consider a dandy ranger (full BAB, spells as per medium so they get cantrips from L1, bard list) either as dip or main class. A medium with the two-world trait might work too and the champion spirit is amenable to dipping.
This is a feat-heavy build - besides the feats you've named there's disposable weapon, the usual power attack, possibly intimidation feats and ideally defensive feats - and since summon instrument isn't at all level-dependent you might find it best to do a lot of dipping. PF tries to discourage this by walling off some useful abilities deep into the class but there's enough front-loaded abilities to pull off a build of dips. Rage, various bonus feats, champion spirit and some other tricks can be had with 1-2 level dips. Medium of the master 2 / MoMS monk 2 / bloodrager 2 / fighter 2 has the spell, rage, champion spirit bonuses, 4 relevant bonus feats and a few useful tricks for example.
I think I just might have created the best possible Melee Improvised Weapon combatant. The inspiration to my build is further up on the same thread.
But you don't want Gallagher: you want El Kabong.
TiwazBlackhand wrote: Any Thoughts? Some.
Halfling can get Throw Anything or Catch Off Guard as an Alternate Racial Trait.
If your GM will allow a 3rd Party Feat, take a look at Improved Catch Off Guard . That seems like a really good way to lock in Sneak Attack Damage.
TiwazBlackhand wrote: Bard/Skald Bard does seem like the obvious choice for El Kabong. Skald has caught my eye for another reason. I've been interested in the Half Orc Teamwork Feat Amplified Rage. It's really lovely: +4 Strength on top of Rage. The problem is that not only is it a Teamwork Feat requiring allies that also have the feat and a Half Orc Feat, requiring your allies be Orcs or Half Orcs, but it also only works on allies that are also Raging! That's a lot requirements! Well, Skald's Raging Song puts all your allies into a Rage, and a level in Cavalier will give a Half Orc Amplified Rage with the Class Ability to share it with their allies even if they aren't half orcs. I'm not sure it really fits the theme, but it does seem cool.
TiwazBlackhand wrote: Hinyasi Brawler with a dip (Downside, Hinyasi and Shikigami Style don't appear to work together) Hinyasi might be the better choice over Shikigami, anyway. You are selecting your weapon for thematic reasons, not performance reasons.
TiwazBlackhand wrote: Any class options I should consider along with these? Yeah, since El Kabong is also Quickdraw MacGraw, you should consider Gunslinger, Gunchemist Alchemist, or Grenadier Achemist (and use a Gun).
Have you given any thought to races? I don't know of any Paizo Anthropomorphic Horses. Kitsune and Tengu are Anthropomorphic animals, but not horse-people.
I found something: Anumi.
I guess you could be a Minotaur character and just get the GM to handwave that you are horse-headed and not bull-headed, a Minequis, if you will.
you could do rogue with a build like the following.
though honestly, you could use the lightbringer + Minor Wishcraft with any non-caster class to gain access to summon instrument. Like say vigilante.
LordKailas wrote: you could do rogue with a build like the following.
** spoiler omitted **
though honestly, you could use the lightbringer + Minor Wishcraft with any non-caster class to gain access to summon instrument. Like say vigilante.
Makeshift Scrapper is pretty awesome, especially if he can also take Improved Catch Off Guard. You could maybe even work in some levels in Hinyasi and do some crazy stuff like score precision damage with every hit and score free trip attempts, too.
I've yet to find any advantage to Hinyasi. The Improvisation Training class feature is mostly incompatible with other improvised weapon abilities because it replaces whatever you would normally get with your improved unarmed damage.
Stab someone with a pencil you do 1d6 damage. Slam someone with a table you do 1d6 damage.
In the end it's mostly fluff that you're using a chair instead of your fist.
I've tried to theorycraft some builds using it but I've yet to find anything worthwhile to latch onto with it. I guess you could make some sort of disarm build to make opponents flat-footed against you. The downfall to that is that the build completely falls apart against anything that has a weapon that can't be disarmed (eg. natural weapons)
LordKailas wrote: I've yet to find any advantage to Hinyasi. The Improvisation Training class feature is mostly incompatible with other improvised weapon abilities because it replaces whatever you would normally get with your improved unarmed damage.
Stab someone with a pencil you do 1d6 damage. Slam someone with a table you do 1d6 damage.
In the end it's mostly fluff that you're using a chair instead of your fist.
I've tried to theorycraft some builds using it but I've yet to find anything worthwhile to latch onto with it. I guess you could make some sort of disarm build to make opponents flat-footed against you. The downfall to that is that the build completely falls apart against anything that has a weapon that can't be disarmed (eg. natural weapons)
I haven't made a good Hinyasi build, either, but the idea of getting a free Bull Rush or Trip every Round seems so sweet, though, there's got to be a way to make it work. Plus, you get to treat your Improvised Weapons like weapons from the Close Fighter Weapon Group, leading to other possibilities, like maybe Ascetic Snake Style? There seems to be potential.
Yeah, Hinyasi's BIG problem is that ability being written a mandatory. If it had the same wording as Warpriest's Sacred Weapon, where you could choose to use either your unarmed damage OR the weapons damage, Hinyasi would be disgusting because you'd be able to Flurry with a 4d8 weapon at 5th level.
But Thank You guys, you've given me a lot of good ideas.
TiwazBlackhand wrote: Yeah, Hinyasi's BIG problem is that ability being written a mandatory. If it had the same wording as Warpriest's Sacred Weapon, where you could choose to use either your unarmed damage OR the weapons damage, Hinyasi would be disgusting because you'd be able to Flurry with a 4d8 weapon at 5th level.
But Thank You guys, you've given me a lot of good ideas.
Yeah, but Brawler Unarmed Strike Damage is not that bad, and it is better than most improvised weapons. If you want Size Increases, you can still Enlarge Person or cast Strong Jaw on yourself.
Meanwhile, if you want to really maximize damage through Size Increases, you don't want El Kabong at all, but rather Gallagher like I showed you further up.
I was thinking that a viable alternative to Shikigami and Sledge Hammer would be Sneak Attack Damage locked in with Improved Catch Off Guard. Since you are using a Bludgeoning Weapon and catching your opponents properly Flatfooted, you might also take Sap Adept and Sap Master, more than doubling your Sneak Attack Damage. You could do that without any levels in Hinyasi Style, but the ability to work in a Trip or Bull Rush with every attack really seems sexy.
The Gallagher Build I showed you calls for 5 levels in Inquisitor. Improved Catch Off Guard is best used if you have a high Bluff Bonus, and That also is a prerequisite for Broken Wing Gambit, which offers Attacks of Opportunity. Another Teamwork Feat you could take by virtue of Inquisitor Solo Tactics is Precise Strike: more Sneak Attack Damage (sort of). Plus, you get Bane, and extra 2d6 Damage.
A bad Trip Check can result in your getting Tripped yourself; Bull Rushing doesn't have that danger. The advantage of Tripping is that you can take Fury's Fall, which allows you to add both your Dex and Strength Mods to your roll, and you can take Vicious Stomp on top of Greater Trip and get 2 Attacks of Opportunity when you Trip someone instead of just 1. If you then take Paired Opportunist with say a 1 level dip in Cavalier, all your allies get those 2 AoOs as well.
Greater Bull Rush gives your allies Attacks of Opportunity, but not you. But if you took Paired Opportunist combined with Solo Tactics or Tactician, you would then get an AoO as well.
The fact that Hinyasi lets you treat your Improvised Weapon as a regular weapon in the Close Fighter Weapon Group means you could take the Human Feat Martial Versatility an apply weapon Specific Feat to all weapons in that Weapon Group. Vicious Stomp only works for Unarmed Strikes, but Unarmed Strikes are in the Close Weapon Group same as Hinyasi Improvised Weapons, and that means you could apply Vicious Stomp to your Impovised Weapon as well. You could also play that trick with something like Snake Style Feats. Snake Fang gives you an Attack of Opportunity whenever you are Attacked an Missed. Also, Martial Versatility would let you use Knockout Artist with your Improvised Weapon, Between Sap Adept Sap Master, and Knockout Artist, you double your Sneak Attack Damage Dice, and you at +2 Damage/die.
El Kabong might be inflicting Precision Damage. If you notice how he attacks his opponents, he makes the same kind of head-shot each time. And it certainly looks like nonlethal Damage.
avr wrote: Also consider a dandy ranger (full BAB, spells as per medium so they get cantrips from L1, bard list) Medium only gets 4 levels of spells, starting at 4th level.
Hmmm, and as far as I can tell, Snakebite Striker SHOULD combine with Hinyasi, I don't see any overlaps, so that would get me half-rogue sneak attack without any dips.
TiwazBlackhand wrote: Hmmm, and as far as I can tell, Snakebite Striker SHOULD combine with Hinyasi, I don't see any overlaps, I don't see any either.
TiwazBlackhand wrote: so that would get me half-rogue sneak attack without any dips. Yeah, but I would dip aggressively. I don't think I would take any more than 4 levels in Hinyasi Snakebite Striker Brawler, enought to get Improvised Maneuvers, and then start taking levels in Ninja or Unchained Rogue and start getting +1d6 Sneak Attack Damage every round, all the sooner to get Sap Master. Your Brawler Levels count as Fighter Levels, you those 4 Brawler Levels will also let you get Martial Versatility and apply Ascetic Style to your guitar, and that will let you apply Knockout punch and maybe Vicious Stomp, too.
Dip a level in Monk, Master of Many Styles, and you take Snake Style Feats which give you an Attack of Opportunity whenever attacked and missed. Normally, you can't use that with your guitar, but with Martial Versatility + Vicious Stomp, you can.
Dip a level in Cavalier, and you can give the Paired Opportunist Feat to all your Allies, meaning that whenever any of you get Attacks of Opportunity, all of you do.
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Dolores Cabeza!
1Brawler1: Hinyasi Snakebite Striker, Unarmed 1d6, Sneak Attack +1d6, Catch Off Guard, Brawler's Cunning, Martial Training, Improved Catch Off-Guard, BAB+1d6
2B1Unchained Rogue1: Sneak Attack 1d6, Weapon Finesse
3B1U2: Sap Adept, Honeyed Words, BAB+2
4B1U3: Sneak Attack 1d6, Dex-DamageBAB+3
5B2U3: Sap Master, Improvisation Training
That's pretty good, Makes opponents Flatfooted almost every round and does 6d6+6 Sneak Attack Damage at level 5.
@Scott, if you take 4 levels in hinyasi surely you'd take a 5th for a bonus feat and +2 attack and +2 damage. That's a dream level for a martial character.
gnoams wrote: avr wrote: Also consider a dandy ranger (full BAB, spells as per medium so they get cantrips from L1, bard list) Medium only gets 4 levels of spells, starting at 4th level.
Take a look at the medium spells known table. Two level zero spells at class level one. If you're looking at the spells/day table that might be fooling you, but cantrips (knacks, whatever) don't appear there because Pathfinder lets you cast an unlimited number of your cantrips known/prepared each day.
avr wrote: @Scott, if you take 4 levels in hinyasi surely you'd take a 5th for a bonus feat and +2 attack and +2 damage. That's a dream level for a martial character.
gnoams wrote: avr wrote: Also consider a dandy ranger (full BAB, spells as per medium so they get cantrips from L1, bard list) Medium only gets 4 levels of spells, starting at 4th level.
Take a look at the medium spells known table. Two level zero spells at class level one. If you're looking at the spells/day table that might be fooling you, but cantrips (knacks, whatever) don't appear there because Pathfinder lets you cast an unlimited number of your cantrips known/prepared each day.
Dandy ranger doesn't get the spells class feature until 4th level, and never gets the knacks class feature.
avr wrote: @Scott, if you take 4 levels in hinyasi surely you'd take a 5th for a bonus feat and +2 attack and +2 damage. That's a dream level for a martial character. That does sound like a dream come true. I'm still working it out.
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Someone suggested using a dip of Gunslinger to cover El Kabong's other identity of Quickdraw. If you do that, may I suggest a dip of Vigilante as well? That would cover quickly changing between identities.
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