So we started our campaign, and I've built a Bard(Negotiator). The character is a lot of fun.
The thing is, we weren't sure what everyone else is playing. So it turns out no one has disable device as a class skill, kind of leaving us in a bit of a lurch.
We were granted second level (basically first level during the intro session, then onward). The DM was cool enough for me to change out my traits a bit (spending gold I acquired to offset what I needed one of the traits for) and get Trapfinder(Trait). I can disable device as a class skill and my Dex is not "bad" (14).
The big thing is that, being super charismatic, I'm working towards an Dazzling Display build (as I'm not otherwise built for combat). So I used the Rogue Talent that Negotiator gets at 2nd level for Weapon Focus, and then at 3rd I can get Dazzling Display.
I could have taken a level of Rogue instead, and I would get the extra d6 for sneak attack, but be at least a level behind in getting Dazzling Display.
Been trying to see if there was a Rogue archtype that substituted sneak attack for weapon focus or something like that, or a better way to get Disable Device without losing my target. I'm guessing no, but some ideas would help.
Also anything that would help with Perception. My Wis is low, so... I'll be pumping ranks into it, but it's rough.
Is there anyone else in the party who might actually find the traps? Trapfinding as a trait is basically unrelated to finding traps, it only helps with disabling them. I think the easiest answer to your dilemma is to make spotting the traps someone else's responsibility.
While rogues don't get weapon focus at level 1 there are other classes which do (famously the inspired blade swashbuckler, less famously a warpriest or possibly fighter) if you want to dip for easier dazzling display.
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Well, I'll get Dazzling Display by 3rd currently. That said, going the route of Inspired Blade Swashbuckler would actually work really well as the character. I'd lose a couple of skill points, but I would get a lot of panache points with my stat block. Plus it actually works really well with my character concept. Thanks for pointing it out :)
Skrayper wrote: Well, I'll get Dazzling Display by 3rd currently. That said, going the route of Inspired Blade Swashbuckler would actually work really well as the character. I'd lose a couple of skill points, but I would get a lot of panache points with my stat block. Plus it actually works really well with my character concept. Thanks for pointing it out :) Sorry, meant to also say I'd fall a little behind on spellcasting. Nothing major though, unless I decide to delve deeper into the other class.
Do you need Disable Device as a class skill? All that does is give you +3 to the check.
PCScipio wrote: Do you need Disable Device as a class skill? All that does is give you +3 to the check. I don't have a huge Dex, but ultimately I was trying to get something that allowed me to disable magical traps. I took the trait that allows for it, as opposed to multiclassing into something with it (like Rogue or Investigator).
If your GM doesn't have a problem with it, just take the Extra Rogue Talent feat to get Trapfinding as well.
If you can retrain or just make it all line up with GM permission, then Inspired Blade Swashbuckler at level 1 gives you Weapon Focus and then you can take Dazzling Display off the bat (most people do Fencing Grace if they want to participate in combat since it gives Dex to damage instead of Str), and then at Bard Level 2 (character level 3) you can get both your second feat and even Extra Rogue Talent if you really wanted.
It really depends on what the campaign is and what the other characters are.
Skrayper wrote: So we started our campaign, and I've built a Bard(Negotiator). The character is a lot of fun.
The thing is, we weren't sure what everyone else is playing. So it turns out no one has disable device as a class skill, kind of leaving us in a bit of a lurch.
We were granted second level (basically first level during the intro session, then onward). The DM was cool enough for me to change out my traits a bit (spending gold I acquired to offset what I needed one of the traits for) and get Trapfinder(Trait). I can disable device as a class skill and my Dex is not "bad" (14).
The big thing is that, being super charismatic, I'm working towards an Dazzling Display build (as I'm not otherwise built for combat). So I used the Rogue Talent that Negotiator gets at 2nd level for Weapon Focus, and then at 3rd I can get Dazzling Display.
I could have taken a level of Rogue instead, and I would get the extra d6 for sneak attack, but be at least a level behind in getting Dazzling Display.
Been trying to see if there was a Rogue archtype that substituted sneak attack for weapon focus or something like that, or a better way to get Disable Device without losing my target. I'm guessing no, but some ideas would help.
Also anything that would help with Perception. My Wis is low, so... I'll be pumping ranks into it, but it's rough.
Since the DM is letting you take the trapfinder trait.... there's really no better option. I don't even see how that's messing with your build concept. How is that making you "lose your target"?
I don't see how multi-classing into rogue would help with what you're trying to do, since losing a whole level seems far more painful than losing a trait. What trait are you having to give up? will the DM allow you to take a drawback?
edit: there are bard archetypes that get trapfinding as a class feature [Sandman(1st), Detective(2nd), Archivist(2nd), Archaeologist(6th)]. But none of them are compatible with negotiator which you seem to be happy with. The prestige class Pathfinder Delver basically gives you trapfinding at 1st level, but you wouldn't be able to get into it until 6th level at the earliest. Of course since you're already a bard then it means you could grab the spell Aram Zey's Focus once you get 2nd level spells. It gives you trapfinding and a re-roll if you majorly botch the check.
LordKailas wrote:
Since the DM is letting you take the trapfinder trait.... there's really no better option. I don't even see how that's messing with your build concept. How is that making you "lose your target"?
I don't see how multi-classing into rogue would help with what you're trying to do, since losing a whole level seems far more painful than losing a trait. What trait are you having to give up? will the DM allow you to take a drawback?
edit: there are bard archetypes that get trapfinding as a class feature [Sandman(1st), Detective(2nd), Archivist(2nd), Archaeologist(6th)]....
I worded it poorly. I was just more or less concerned about being asked to do something but not be nearly as good as someone dedicated to it; otherwise, I don't mind doing it at all.
I went this route and I think I'm pretty happy with it:
Bard (Negotiator) 1 \ Swashbuckler (Inspired Blade) 1
Str 12
Dex 14
Con 10
Int 16
Wis 8
Cha 18
Human
Alternate Racial Traits:
Silver Tongued (+2 Diplomacy and Bluff,
Focused Study (Skill focus at 1st, 8th and 16th)
Traits:
Trapfinder (+1 to Disable Device)
Well-Provisioned Adventurer
Extremely Fashionable (+1 to Bluff, Diplomacy & Intimidate)
Attached (Drawback)
Feats:
Skill Focus: Intimidate
Persuasive
Weapon Focus: Rapier
Weapon Finesse (Rapier only, from Inspired Blade)
Skills (those with ranks only):
Appraise +7
Bluff +12
Diplomacy +15
Disable Device +6
Intimidate +16
Knowledge: Arcana +7
Knowledge: Dungeoneering +7
Knowledge: Geography +7
Knowledge: Local +8
Perception +3
Perform: Sing +8
Perform: String +10 (masterwork violin)
Sense Motive +4
Spellcraft +7
Stealth +4
Panache Points: 7
Spells:
0th: Daze, Read Magic, Detect Magic, Dancing Lights
1st: Cure Light Wounds, Chord of Shards
AC penalty is currently -2 (MW Chainshirt, Buckler). Have not yet purchased a set of MW thieves' tools. DD can go up to a +9 with the tools and taking off the buckler. Also considering downgrading to MW Studded Leather, to make things that much easier.
Go back to Bard at next level, taking the following:
Rogue Talent - Combat Feat: Dazzling Display
Feat: Either Deft Hands or Skill Focus: Disable Device.
I'm tempted to take Fencing Grace, but it's not a huge step up in damage (+2 from +1), but as I will likely focus on boosting Dex magically, I'll probably take it at some point.
On an unrelated note, I was looking at Pageant of the Peacock, and it is interesting. Finding clarification on it, though, was not.
I saw a lot of people stating that you could use it for Craft skills, but that doesn't seem accurate. Craft checks represent a week's worth of work, and the duration is 10 minutes. Even if you burned every round of inspiration to use it, you'd be way short of that.
But otherwise I can use Bluff to make Knowledge, Appraise, or Spellcraft checks correct? I'm operating under the assumption that you cannot make most of those untrained, so you'd still need a rank in each skill you'd want to use. I can't substitute the check for a check in Knowledge: Geography unless I already know something in that area, right?
Finding the threads back when it first came out in 2014 are... rough. So I thought I'd ask here instead.
A no-archetype bard has bardic knowledge which bypasses the need for a rank in a knowledge to use it for DC > 10. You don't have bardic knowledge as a negotiator of course.
As far as what you can do with it goes some people want to see it as basically faking knowledge - bluff to come up with a good lie - but by the rules it lets you actually make knowledge checks which makes those people start foaming at the mouth. Talk to your GM with an eye out for that before taking the pageant.
avr wrote: A no-archetype bard has bardic knowledge which bypasses the need for a rank in a knowledge to use it for DC > 10. You don't have bardic knowledge as a negotiator of course.
As far as what you can do with it goes some people want to see it as basically faking knowledge - bluff to come up with a good lie - but by the rules it lets you actually make knowledge checks which makes those people start foaming at the mouth. Talk to your GM with an eye out for that before taking the pageant.
Yeah - if we cannot work it out to be acceptable to the campaign I'm in I'll probably just not worry about it. Because I went a level into Inspired Blade, I couldn't do this until 5th level. (A lot of people I read talked about only needing things like Wiz3/Bard1, but I'm guessing they forgot you don't get a feat at 4th level).
Clearly I missed the great PFS Peacock debate of 2014.
Skrayper wrote: Yeah - if we cannot work it out to be acceptable to the campaign I'm in I'll probably just not worry about it. Because I went a level into Inspired Blade, I couldn't do this until 5th level. (A lot of people I read talked about only needing things like Wiz3/Bard1, but I'm guessing they forgot you don't get a feat at 4th level). Yes and no. They were probably assuming that you're allowed to retrain the feat. It's an optional rule, but one that most DMs have accepted as being resonable since re-training isn't free.
Retraining wrote: Retraining takes all your attention for 8 hours per day for a number of days based on what you’re retraining. You can’t perform any other strenuous activities while retraining, such as marching, adventuring, or crafting magic items. You can retrain only one thing at a time; you must complete or abandon a particular training goal before starting another one. Abandoning unfinished training means you lose all progress toward that training’s goal and all costs associated with that training.
Unless stated otherwise, retraining costs gp equal to 10 × your level × the number of days required to retrain. This is normally paid in full at the start of the retraining period, but the GM might allow you to divide these payments over multiple days. At the GM’s discretion, this training cost could be up to 50% higher or lower, depending on situational factors within the settlement—availability of trainers, local economy, cost of materials, and so on.
Some retraining options require you to work with a trainer. If no suitable trainer is available, the GM might allow you to retrain yourself by spending twice the normal time. Even if you train yourself, you must still pay the cost for training (though you don’t double the cost as you do the time). Any option that requires a trainer also requires some kind of training facility for that activity.
Retraining wrote: You may change one feat to another through retraining. Retraining a feat takes 5 days with a character who has the feat you want. The old feat can’t be one you used as a prerequisite for a feat, class feature, archetype, prestige class, or other ability. If the old feat is a bonus feat granted by a class feature, you must replace it with a feat that you could choose using that class feature.
Note that this retraining is unrelated to the fighter ability to learn a new bonus feat in place of an old one at certain class levels. That class ability is free, happens instantly when the character gains an appropriate fighter level, doesn’t require a trainer, and can happen only once for any appropriate fighter level. Retraining a feat requires you to spend gp, takes time, requires a trainer, and can happen as often as you want.
and yes, you can retrain to a feat you didn't previously qualify for as per this FAQ.
So, at 4th level you're looking at 200gp and 5 days, assuming you can find someone to teach you. The full rules can be found here. They basically allow a character to spend some time and money to alter choices instead of being locked into them forever. It also gives non-crafting characters something they can do during downtime to improve their character (in limited ways).
So, dip a level in a Class where Disable Device is a Class Skill, and you get a +3. +3 is nice.
Rogues can take Weapon Focus and any 1 other Combat Feat as Rogue Talents. Accomplished Sneak Attacker will help you do more Sneak Attack Damage. After you've taken 2 levels in Rogue, you can take Extra Talent as a Feat.
Rogues that focus on Charisma instead of Dexterity can be the groundwork for perfectly reasonable builds. If you want those high-level spells, you'd best keep your dipping to a minimum. There are magical Rogue Talents that might offset your delays in spell progression. You might become a Bard/Rogue/Arcane Trickster. I don't know what would be best.
Disable Device is a Skill, and any Class can take Ranks in it, and Bards get lots of Skill Points, almost as much as Rogues do. The other thing that Rogues get apart from bonuses to Disabling Devices is that only Rogues can use the Disable Device Skill to Disable magic traps such as Glyph of Warding. Otherwise, you'd have to find some other way to Disable a magic Trap. You only need 1 level in Rogue to get magic trap skills (Trapfinding).
The "Voices of Solid Things" trait gives you disable device as a class skill, and lets you use charisma as the key ability as well. Holding out for Pathfinder Delver is a pretty good way to go if you can wait till then to deal with magical traps.
Pageant of the Peacock is pretty solidly in "ask your DM" territory.
ErichAD wrote: The "Voices of Solid Things" trait gives you disable device as a class skill, and lets you use charisma as the key ability as well. Holding out for Pathfinder Delver is a pretty good way to go if you can wait till then to deal with magical traps.
Pageant of the Peacock is pretty solidly in "ask your DM" territory.
Voices of Solid Things certainly is intriguing... but I don't think my human character would ever have been part of the Witchmarket.
People are always selling their first born for strange magic. A human could have started their life traveling with the witchmarket as fee rather than fey.
ErichAD wrote: People are always selling their first born for strange magic. A human could have started their life traveling with the witchmarket as fee rather than fey. True, but I've already got my backstory in and trust me when I say it would not mesh with it :)
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