Multiple bards in a single party questions

[WombattheDaniel]

So hypothetically if there’s more than one bard in a party (or any other class that can give static bonuses). If both have inspire competence running, do others receive the benefits of both?

What if the bards are two separate, distinct archetypes, and both give competence bonuses (which stack)?

[WombattheDaniel]

So we know that effects from the same source don’t stack, so I guess the real question here is this:

Are two differing PCs that have the same class and/or class abilities considered the same source?

And if so, are two PCs with differing archetypes considered the same source?

[MrCharisma]

Two competence bonuses won't stack.

If you have archetypes that replace them with different types of bonus (Insight/Luck/Morale/Sacred/etc) then it would work, but they have to be different types.

The "two bonuses stack if they're from different sources" thing is for "Untyped" bonuses (either bonuses that call themselves "Untyped" or bonuses that list no type).

[Lelomenia]

Issue is that they will both normally give competence bonuses (for Inspire Competence as well as the attack/damage bonus aspect of Inspire Courage), which will not stack. I believe if there was a performance that gave an untyped bonus, and two bards performed it, they would stack, but that wouldnt be a universal consensus (and is probably irrelevant).

Consider Skald, or a bard archetype that dumps redundant performances.

[MrCharisma]

I should also say that if you have two new-ish players wanting to play bards, and you don't want to bog them down with archetypes and stacking rules then letting these two specific bonuses stack is probably not going to break anything.

Just tell them that you're making an exception for this and this alone, eg. they can't both cast Heroism on the Barbarian and expect that to stack.

If there are two experienced players at the table trying to argue this then they're pulling a fast-one. If they want stacking bonuses they can find an archetype that will do the trick (or look at Skald).

[WombattheDaniel]

Oh my fault. I was thinking circumstance bonus.

[Valandil Ancalime]

Just suggest one inspires courage/competence/whatever while the other casts a spell/uses aid another(if possible)/some other action. It's not like bards are 1-trick ponies.

[Claxon]

They're not one trick ponies, but people are often playing bards for the ability to buff their party with Inspire Courage.

If one player wanted to play an archaeologist bard, their version is a luck bonus (but only affects the bard).

[awbattles]

Well, considering this feat: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/counterpoint-to-inspiration-te amwork/ it's safe to say that the Inspire features aren't allowed to stack normally.
However, I think the pre-reqs for this feat are nothing shy of egregious; two people each having to take THREE teamwork feats, plus wait until level 10, and each expend rounds, all to add a +1? It may be the single worst feat-chain/tax I've ever seen. So...ask the GM if he'd handwave the pre-reqs of the feat I linked. Or pick difference performances when both playing at once.

[blahpers]

As I understand it, in general (and with some exceptions) the same effect doesn't apply more than once even if there are multiple instances of the effect. This is the principle behind the "Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths" text--I'd wager the writers thought it unnecessary to have a separate paragraph for "Same Effect More than Once with Equal Strengths". This also fits with the Evil Eye/bestow curse FAQ--multiple instances of these effects do stack, but only when they penalize different statistics or otherwise have different effects.

Fortunately, in this case, the bonus types cover the situation, so there's nothing to argue about. : )

[Scavion]

A Spell Warrior Skald would pair nicely.

[Wyran Tegus]

Everyone else answered the crux of this: two bards can't both Inspire Courage/Competence to have them stack, and the teamwork feats to enable stacking are just bad. Archetypes are the best solution, but it's the kind of bonus that matters. A great strategy is to have a vanilla bard (or at least one that doesn't replace Inspire Courage) and a Court Bard. One buffs the party, while the other debuffs the enemies.

The Archivist's Naturalist would also be a nice, stacking complement. I'm less a fan of the Daredevil, Detective, Magician, or Street Performer's replacements, but they would (mostly) stack as well. You could have an all-bard party with an interesting mix of ongoing buff/debuff abilities that could succeed.

Just focus on the bonus type and check the core rule book on whether that type of bonus stacks with itself or not (they usually don't stack).

[VoodistMonk]

Whilst one Bard does Inspire Courage, the other Bard is singing the Song of Fiery Gaze so that the party can see through the clouds of smoke coming from their eversmoking bottle...

[gnoams]

I'm pretty sure there are so many bard archetypes that it would be possible to create a party of bards who all had different songs that all stacked.

There are also some bard teamwork feats for multiple bards playing together to boost their abilities.

[Derklord]

gnoams wrote:

I'm pretty sure there are so many bard archetypes that it would be possible to create a party of bards who all had different songs that all stacked.

Checking for archetypes that replace Inspire Courage:

• Vanilla grants a competence bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls.
• Archivist grants an insight bonus to AC and on attack rolls and saving throws against knowledge'd targets.
• Dwarven Scholar grants the benefits of combat feats.
• Filidh grants an insight bonus on Reflex saving throws and to AC.
• Flamesinger grants bonus fire damage on weapon attacks.
• Court Bard lowers enemies' attack and damage rolls (language dependent).

That's without the personal-only-stuff (e.g. Archaeologist), or Masterpieces or other performances.

A Skald party would be even more effective, with bonus to strength from Vanilla, morale bonus to melee A&D from Wyrm Singer, competence bonus to attacks and morale bonus to saves from Twilight Speaker, and enhancement bonus to weapons from Spell Warrior. A strength-based melee would get +5 to attack and +4 to damage rolls at first level...

[Cavall]

That's too narrow a focus. If an archetype has the ability to offer a song that replaces something that's not impaired courage it could still use it while another bard does inspire courage.

Animal speaker could summon swarms. Buccaneer could do song of surrender, detectives could boost initiate and perception, and so on. Theres dozens. Most of which fits an a bard group well in stacking.

[PCScipio]

Don't forget the Dirge of Doom performance.

[MrCharisma]

Cavall wrote:

If an archetype has the ability to offer a song that replaces something that's not impaired courage it could still use it while another bard does inspire courage.

Heehee ^_^

[Cavall]

I mean... technically that's court bard.

[Lady Asharah]

Standard bard combined with either a Spell Warrior Skald (enchant party's weapons) or a Court Bard (debuff the enemies) will work quite nicely.

But if the Inspire Courage is the song of both bards, take a look at some masterpieces. Many are amazing but not quite as good as merely keeping Inspire Courage up... so if one bard Inspires Courage, the other one can perform masterpieces (Canticle of Joy is a particular favorite of mine).

[Cevah]

Don't forget to buy a Dervish Sikke (10,000 gp), to bump your inspire courage (& competence) by +1. This is not capped by the class.

/cevah

[Scott Wilhelm]

It's kind of a funny idea, a party of all Bards. They are a circus troop or a rock band.