
Zapp |
Yeah, as others note, this just doesn't make sense at all from a realism perspective.And even from a game balance perspective, it still doesn't make a lot of sense. You're paying X money for Y result...what Y is should 100% matter. It's not the only thing that matters, hiring a 14th level woman to assassinate a 3rd level guy should cost more than hiring a 6th level person to do it, but the 14th level woman is gonna charge less for an easier and lower risk job...that's just how basic economics works.
Absolutely.
But leave that up to the GM.
The baseline must be "what does a level 14 woman cost".
There are a lot of jobs where it isn't apparent what level the job is (not until the monster arrives and it's too late to renegotiate or renege on the deal).
So the baseline is obviously "whom am I talking to". The first offer will depend on the NPCs' level.
That you might be able to convince the NPC to work for free (because the work is easy, or because "saving the orphans from the Aboleth Hive Mind" is dangerous but really commendable) is entirely plausible, but that must be left outside the table.

thenobledrake |
No, your job description might be "guard this place".
Whether the threat is a single Orc or the Tarrasque doesn't come into it.
You want level 6 thugs, you pay a level 6 fee.
You want to hire guards to protect a fort out on the frontier, that's a different price than hiring the same quality of guards to protect a shop in the middle of a large city.
And still, if you offer up too much payment for the job - even if the reason is because you are hiring overqualified people - it would be reasonable for the potential employees to think "this is suspicious" and turn the job down rather than risk figuring out what the catch is the hard way.

Zapp |
You want to hire guards to protect a fort out on the frontier, that's a different price than hiring the same quality of guards to protect a shop in the middle of a large city.
The game sets the price upon utility everywhere else.
I see no reason why the rules would make a level 6 guard come cheaper in some places.
And still, if you offer up too much payment for the job - even if the reason is because you are hiring overqualified people - it would be reasonable for the potential employees to think "this is suspicious" and turn the job down rather than risk figuring out what the catch is the hard way.
I'm sorry, I've lost you.
A sword isn't given different prices depending on locale. Spellcasting services doesn't mention any discounts for place. Magic items cost the same wherever you purchase them. Why are you so adamant in opposing the simple and obvious solution that the cost of a NPC is dependent on its level, when exactly that relation governs everything else in PF2??

thenobledrake |
Because A) the other prices you mention are also subject to variation when it suits the narrative of when/where/how and from whom they are being purchased and B) taking a little consideration as to what motivates real people and sways the opinion of real people, and basing the way NPCs function in the game on that consideration, is a quick and easy method to enrich a player's interaction with that element of the game.

jdripley |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |

At my table, I want to keep it simple.
Is the hireling doing mundane things like helping you haul stuff out of a dungeon, or cook and clean your camp? The base hireling pay.
Is the hireling doing full-on adventuring? They get an equal share of any loot found and quest reward money.
For any other job, I'll just use the Earn Income table. Including hiring guards for your base, but I'd include a hazard pay clause that increases the base rate by double or triple for whatever days the hirelings actually fought.
Ultimately, we're not talking about an actually worth-while expense here. If the story demands a raid, the raid will happen. If it doesn't, no raid will happen. If the story demands a certain result, no amount of hireling guards will stop that result. Right? And a GM needs to be VERY cautious with attacking the players' fort while they are away, for fear of creating overly cautious PCs who won't go to dungeons anymore because their fort might get raided.
So this party is hiring guards for a place that will most probably never actually NEED guards. There's no need to make them pay through the nose just because they had a good RP moment and thought it would be good to hire some guards.

Thomas5251212 |
thenobledrake wrote:People are talking about the job because if you go to a group of level 6 thugs and tell them you want to hire them to literally steal candy from babies, they're probably going to just say "no" to the job - and that'd be before you bring up payment.
Then you've got the paranoia that can be caused by telling someone you want them to do a super-easy job but pay them like it's standard work. That kind of thing screams "there is something about this job I'm not telling you that I think will make it worth the fee, and you're likely to feel should have gotten you a bonus when it surprises you mid job"
No, your job description might be "guard this place".
Whether the threat is a single Orc or the Tarrasque doesn't come into it.
You want level 6 thugs, you pay a level 6 fee.
This is only true if the thugs A) Don't know what they'll be guarding against when you hire them and B) You don't expect them to just run for it when something more than normal shows up. If you think otherwise, I have a number of great deals for you...

Ouatcheur |
Agreed.
The proper way is to differentiate between hiring
- Hirelings:
Non risky tasks, relatively safe environment.
Example 1: Labourer.
Example 2: Cart Driver.
If the work require to be "far from home" for extended periods, then the pay should be better. If the work is relatively menial, but the
environment is not super safe, but in case of a battle the hireling is
expected to just take cover and avoid the fight, then he gets hazard pay.
As being a very different thing from hiring
- Henchmen:
Risky tasks, hazard pay, not dangerous every day, semi-dangerous environment, overland travel or patrol or sentry guard post.
Example 1: Caravan Guard.
Example 2: Man At Arms
Again, the duration of the job (how far from home and for how long),
the amount, intensity, and frequency of exposure to risks, and what the
NPC is expected to do in case of dangers, all affect the pay.
A good trick is to imagine an NPC setup without the PCs at all. Say soldiers in a little mercenary group, or a crew of pirates . They expect to be paid every day, not just "the days that they have to go fight". They also expect that the amount of danger is "reasonable". This means not being put into fights for days on end, with AMPLE downtime after each battle. They also expect to battle human-sized foes, not fantasy monsters. And they expect a share of the loot, too. And raiding and pillaging, too (or else, pay them better).
Now you want fighters that follow you into a dungeon, fighting SEVERAL times per day against TONS of high fantasy dangers.
Unless they are clearly weaker than the PCs, or extremely friendly (more like helpful companions than real "for hire" henchmen, then), the *strict bare minimum* they'll agree upon is a daily pay with hazard pay *AND ALSO* a full share of the loot (to their families if they die), albeit the PCs will typically get first choice. But a magical item's atual value is part of the loot so if the party of 5 finds a 35 gp magical dagger and 35 gp, this means 10 shares of 7 gp each, thus their 5 henchmen will get 7 gp and the party gets no coins and can split the dagger between themselves.
It's like having friends come help you when moving out: you pay them beer and pizza. Vs hiring professionals, you still give beer and pizza AND pay up the wazzoo too. Henchmen also expect to be treated fairly, not take more risks than the PCs (i.e. not willing to be the first ones to go front row), and not be more loyal than strictly necessary. A king might have his 20 men willing to rush into a deadly fight for him. After all they SWORE an oath to serve him. But mercenaries? They're in it for the money, and very few will accept "You work for free, until we find some loot to split up between ourselves fairly" nor will accept "You work for that fixed pay,and when we find nice loot, you won't get any big extra bonus".
Typically the henchmen are clearly weaker than the PCs, and thus get some fixed pay (which might vary by danger level off current area - overland travel to the dungeon is not the same as the days actually inside the dungeon) + say half a share.
Hazard Pay is for when you expect hopefully there probably won't be any fights, or maybe one, at worst two, and if there is a fight you expect hopefully it won't be too hard to win. That's like x2 to x5 normal "safe" pay. Dungeon Exploration however is more like "Extreme Hasard" pay and is at least 10x normal pay, if not more.
All of that is "negotiable", but ultimately the GM's goal is to make it so hiring "pros" to do the fight for them, will ultimately cost them more than what they themselves gain from being one of the adventurers. This is because "hiring" means having to pay some kind of premium, some extra. the only exceptions are when the NPC is in it by loyalty or super helpful or if doing the adventure aligns with their own goals. But if the NPC is mercerary-for-the-money, then a 5-men party of 4 PCs + either a 5th PC of an henchman-at-arms, it should be noticeably more economical for the first four PCs to get a 5th PC, than an NPC "same level" henchman. Same for the amount of actual risdks thae 56th man is going to take for therm: a Pc is a more loyal and reliable companion than a henchman.
And most of all, the GM should adjust the XPs. A party of 4 Level 1 PCs + 4 Level 1 henchmen, the situation is not "Just give the same XPs and split the XPs by 8 instead of by 4". Nope. The party suddenly counts as being a much stronger party i.e. as being a higher level party. So the encounter itself is now clearly worth LESS XPs, ssay, only 40 XPs instead of 80 XPs, and THEN the GM divides the XPs by 8 characters.
Basically, sure the fights are much easier. But the PCs have to go through a ***LOT*** more fights (in this example, 4 times as much!) to earn the same amount of XPs.
Basically they won't level up as much. As single henchman that has a motivation to be there "for story reasons", fine. But hiring on purpose as a way to make winning fights easy, ok if very short term, but long term it should be a losing proposition both in terms of money and EXPs.
In other words: if and only if the party seems too weak, add a single temporary companion, capable compared to other PCs, but not overshadowing any of them, that is 100% linked to the current adventure. Make sure he gets his fair share of the loot AMD of the EXPs. If possible make sure his goal will be reached within a single level. For example he wants too find the (MacGuffin) (that GM adds in last room of the 1st dungeon level), not make him stick around for the entire Adventure Path (which would basically become a DM PC).
Players that insist on hiring henchmen, typically do so around levels 2-5 when their PCs get rich enough to hire a few men-at-arms, but they aren't so high level that the men-at-arms suddenly start dying like so many useless flies every fight. Allow it, at say half a loot share per NPC henchman, and after a few NPCs "don't make it back", the party's reputation is damaged and nobody is willing to work for them except at extra pay and full loot share. After a few more "don't come back", their reptation is completely ruined and nobody want to be hired by them no matter what.
Typically if the GM points out that fights get slower the more NPCs there are in the party, AND makes swure to tell them that the XPs they got was say "your party is stronger by 2 soldiers, so the module say 80 XPs for that encounter... by a party of 4. With the soldiers in your group, this means that encounter is worth only 60 XPs instead." And then show how they would have already leveled up two game sessions ago. Thrust me they will drop the extra meat FAST, all by themselves.

Megistone |

Typically the henchmen are clearly weaker than the PCs, and thus get some fixed pay (which might vary by danger level off current area - overland travel to the dungeon is not the same as the days actually inside the dungeon) + say half a share.
Incidentally, the old D&D basic set had a similar rule for retainers: they got half the XP share, and instead of a fixed pay you could offer them half a share of the treasure.

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I sense necromancy!
*turns undead*
Yes, far better had someone started a whole new thread on the topic, and then someone else pop up and post a link to this thread, so that folks interested in the topic would have two separate threads to read, containing, between them, the same innformation.