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For the people who are using "Sturdy is the shield meant for blocking" as an argument in this discussion, I'm sorry, but you're missing the point entirely. *Everyone knows that*. What we're saying is that this is not a good design choice, nor is it good for the game in the long term. That it creates an extremely bland interaction where non-shield focused characters can have cool shields that elevate the concept of their character, where people who have the shield as their core gameplay aspect are completely stuck with the most boring option you can possibly have.
What we want is for this paradigm to be changed somehow, either with stat adjustments, turning Sturdy into a Rune or many other possible solutions, and Paizo has shown to be willing to make big changes to the rules in this edition. If you disagree with this, you're in your right and please explain why, but simply restating the initial assumption as if it were an answer isn't a valid point. It isn't even a point at all.
Cool, ask then not for sturdy rune for all shields, but for cool runes for the sturdy shield. There, both of us happy!
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If you're a dabbler, just pick any shield you want and enjoy its simple +1 or +2 AC.I like this terminology btw (and it doesn't seem ambiguous to me).
A shield dabbler is the guy who doesn't invest in the shield feats and just wants the AC bonus. Obviously most of the shields would be great for a shield dabbler who NEVER wants to Edit: Shield Block.But, as for a PC who is a Shield Professional...
...who invests in shield feats, it kind of sucks as a GM when you want to give your PC Captain Absalom a cool new shield and he sells it and just buys the Sturdy Shield for that level.Shield mechanics are actually one of the cool things that PF2 has over 5e.
I don't know why you wouldn't want to lean in and try to make them as cool as possible. It kind of sucks as a new player to come up with this really cool dwarven fighter shield master character who uses a Forge Warden and then see it get destroyed on its first hit. That PC is going to have a bad taste in his mouth even after the GM says, "ya don't worry, you just need to get a sturdy shield all of the other ones can't block".Not to mention that most players and GMs don't even know that you know the damage before blocking or that all these shield calculations aren't even talking about going against boss enemies where your shield is even worse with the high number of crits.
This has been one of my main issues with it as well. It's kinda frustrating to see people holding on so tightly for a status quo that isn't healthy for the game (and clearly presents some worrying issues with Arrow-catching and Forge Warden), while all we want is more options for shield-focused characters and for more people be inclined to engage in one of the new aspects only this edition has to offer that's also pretty cool.
On the other hand, all shields issued since the CRB have been a lot better about the shield health problem. I'm reasonably optimistic that the APG will lighten up the load of what sucks right now.
Though I would like a mild system of shield runes that can be used to uptick the health of any shield, among other possible effects. Would make shields more dynamic and workable without just having to hope for sturdy shields being eased out of the definite meta.
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Besides what the other have said (and I agree with them), what I'm saying is that there is an option in the game that is so bad that it will never be used - well, let's say it will be used in extremely rare circumstances.
If there was a rule that said: "You can only use Shield Block with Sturdy Shields, or non-magical one", then one could argue about the intent, but at least it would be clear.
Instead we have high level shields that you CAN block with, but doing so is almost always a very bad choice, saving you just a token amount of health and probably destroying your expensive shield.
I would accept a destroyed shield if it was really worth it. It's like breaking your Staff of Power: an extreme move that, at least, brings a memorable effect. With shields, the effect is saving you 6 damage...
And if the developers' intent is clearly separating shields you can block with from those you really shouldn't use that way, how do you explain the two worst offenders, Forge Warden and Arrow-catching Shield?
PS: there are two threads going about the same stuff, I think it's better if we merge them into a single discussion.
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Risk based choices and compromise are the heart of good game design.
If you don't see, for example, a Spellguard shields +2 to saves vs. spells as a valid trade off for the ability to use shield block, I'd suggest that you may not be understanding the underlying mechanics of the system correctly.
"Small" bonuses like that are a huge deal. If you could easily block with a Spellguard shield, it would become instantly better than any shield that could only block. That +2 to saves is an absolutely massive reduction in the damage and effectiveness of incoming spells.
There seems to be this... unfounded assumption that because Shield Block as a reaction exists, it must be constantly usable with any shield, no matter what. Using it is a risk based decision - don't block with shields that are going to be destroyed by blocking. Like any other reaction, it should be situational.
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Risk based choices and compromise are the heart of good game design.
If you don't see, for example, a Spellguard shields +2 to saves vs. spells as a valid trade off for the ability to use shield block, I'd suggest that you may not be understanding the underlying mechanics of the system correctly.
"Small" bonuses like that are a huge deal. If you could easily block with a Spellguard shield, it would become instantly better than any shield that could only block. That +2 to saves is an absolutely massive reduction in the damage and effectiveness of incoming spells.
There seems to be this... unfounded assumption that because Shield Block as a reaction exists, it must be constantly usable with any shield, no matter what. Using it is a risk based decision - don't block with shields that are going to be destroyed by blocking. Like any other reaction, it should be situational.
I agree that 'special' shields have worthwhile abilities - except those that require a shield block to activate.
But at this point, why bother giving them an hardness and HP at all?Blocking with them is not, as you say, a risk based decision. It's not even situational, there's no decision at all: you block if you are wielding a sturdy shield, you never block if you aren't.
Instead, if your spellguard shield doesn't block much, but can survive a hit (maybe getting broken if it's big enough, but not outright destroyed), then you have a choice: do you spend your reaction to save you that 6 damage, probably losing the shield for the rest of the combat? If the outcome is having the item permanently destroyed, there's no choice to take.
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I will say that more options for sometimes blocking shields would be nice. Runed shields for customizability would be good as well.
I just don't want to see sturdy shields or spellguard shields get any better. They are both really great options already.
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Cool, ask then not for sturdy rune for all shields, but for cool runes for the sturdy shield. There, both of us happy!If you sense people are unhappy interacting with you, maybe it would help actually acknowledging and addressing their concerns?
I've already given you a quote to respond to. Here's another:
Best RegardsFor many people, the image of constantly protecting your shield with your body because your shield is a significant fraction of your net worth is the problem. If shields were priced much, much more cheaply and there was a snowball's chance in hell of players *actually* deciding that destroying their shield might be worth it, then the whole system might fit the fantasy.
This "Hit my face, not my shield! please!" situation is waaaay too common for my taste.
Hmmmm, no.
I mean, its not going to be a common situation, but if 6 hit points keeps me on my feet in a critical battle then using my level 6 shield to shield block might be worthwhile. Yes it is an expensive trade that I would not want to make, but I wouldn't pretend like it isn't even an option if the alternative is being the 4th party member knocked out, in the final rounds of a boss fight.
I would still like feat support for being able to repair shields back from 0hp, but even without it, by level 12, with adequate bags of holding, I think every character with the strength to carry it might want a spellguard shield in their backpack for when you know you are going into a situation where you will face a lot of casters, even a sword and board champion might be better off being able to tag out their sturdy shield if they are going to be more worried about making saving throws and never picked up divine grace because they felt reaction starved to begin with.
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So for my current game my gm is using inherent bonus for a low magic feel. I asked my gm in advance to building a shield fighter if I would be able to find sturdy Shield equivalents as I leveled up and he told me I wouldn't. So I build a bastard sword dueling fighter instead.
The dueling fighter is actually pretty cool and I still got to play the defensive fighter to supplement our rogue and barbarian who are more brittle in combat. But the availability of resilient shields is something I recommend people consider before building characters who specialise in shields.
This is really unfortunate, and one of the issues of having a system that's so tightly set up - when you alter the core assumptions, you rapidly encounter issues because you don't have access to things you should have.
Sounds like the automatic bonus progression may have needed a blurb that said something to the effect of, "Add the following text to the Shield Block feat - during your daily preparations, you may reinforce one non-magical shield in your possession. It gains the Hardness, hit points and break threshold of a Sturdy Shield of your level or lower."
Oh hey, another thread.
Hi! Welcome to the dead horse beating club.
I'll dive in one more time, haha! I do love these shield threads.
I'm in the camp of "shields are fine as-is.
I absolutely love that ANY character can get great use out of a shield in PF2.
The primary, universal function of a shield is to increase AC at the expense of an action. All shields do that, and there are zero restrictions on who can pick up a shield and make use of the AC bonus.
I know I'm bringing in another issue here, but lots of people complain "that big boss crits me all the time and my character gets KOed fast!" Well, pick up a shield, use one of your actions, and now that big bad boss will crit you less. Doesn't matter what your class, ancestry, etc. is, you can do this. That is excellent. Even if your focus is a two handed weapon, you probably already have a backup 1h weapon, so sling a shield on your back and in an emergency, you can use it.
Now, standing beside that core functionality, different shields are specialized in different things. Some are really good at blocking. Some give bonuses in certain situations. One freaking BITES your enemy when you raise it.
All of these functions are secondary, and each type of shield is different. You take the shield for what you want its secondary function to be. Are you a lowbie, poor adventurer? Basic steel or wood, sorry you shield isn't great but hey, soon you'll be able to afford better. Are you higher level and looking to make use of Shield Block? Great, use a sturdy shield. Don't have/don't want to use Shield Block? Good news, check out this list of nifty items that you can use, feat tax free, no matter what class you chose, no matter what feats you have.
I think it's all good.
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Are you higher level and looking to make use of Shield Block? Great, use a sturdy shield.
And only a sturdy shield until the day you die.
People who make characters with feats and class abilities invested in shields should have more than one option for a shield.
It sucks SO MUCH that any shield that is found as loot is automatically a toy for all the characters *besides* the shield focused one unless it's one specific type of shield.
I absolutely love that ANY character can get great use out of a shield in PF2.
The primary, universal function of a shield is to increase AC at the expense of an action.
And once again someone (in this case me) will remind you that the reason these threads exist has literally zero relation to that.
If shields are fine because they grant anyone and everyone +2 AC, then you'd be happy if magical shields were removed entirely.
Right?
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I absolutely love that ANY character can get great use out of a shield in PF2.
The primary, universal function of a shield is to increase AC at the expense of an action.
And once again someone (in this case me) will remind you that the reason these threads exist has literally zero relation to that.
If shields are fine because they grant anyone and everyone +2 AC, then you'd be happy if magical shields were removed entirely.
Right?
I don't like the idea of removing a challenging character choice by buffing non-blocking shields into blocking relevance. Those other options are, by and large, totally valid on their own merits. If you give them more merits, they're an obvious best choice.
When and if it happens, I'll pour one out for Sturdy Shields because what makes them good and wonderful is that they're the go to for shield blocking. If they're only marginally more effective at that than a shield with utility, they're completely worthless. The dichotomy exists currently because they're the only Common option that reliably blocks lots of damage repeatedly.
Of course you take the slightly worse blocking shield if it comes with special utility but is still valid for blocking. Its a no brainer.
Currently, I have to decide how much I want +2 to spell saves, and if thats a good trade off for my Shield Block class feature. Thats good design.
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If you are going down with hp, you manage to trade some of them with a shield block. That's it.
You deliberately go with a shield which can absorb 6 damage.
You know it, and you decide so because of other bonuses ( +2 vs spells, + 2 reflex saves, etc... ).If you happen to block with that shield, is because you have to ( or the damage is low enough to allow you to absorb 1 hit while remaining above the Broken TS ).
to sum up:
1) You choose building up your character in terms of feats/perks.
2) You choose equipping your character ( even a lvl 4 sturdy shield would be available at any level ).
3) You choose whether to block or not after seeing the incoming damageThe choice is for real.
You are stating again how things are. I say that they could be better.
This should be the game where combat is dynamic, and your choices count not only at the stage of character building and gearing up.I'm sure that we could achieve some balanced stats, such as you can use a 'special effect' shield to block sometimes (probably at the cost of breaking, but not destroying, it) without making it too powerful. In most cases, it would just mean increasing the shield's HP.
Please tell me why having this extra option would not make the game better, whereas now you only use that when you absolutely can't do without - and pay dearly for that.
Now, standing beside that core functionality, different shields are specialized in different things. Some are really good at blocking. Some give bonuses in certain situations. One freaking BITES your enemy when you raise it.
All of these functions are secondary, and each type of shield is different. You take the shield for what you want its secondary function to be. Are you a lowbie, poor adventurer? Basic steel or wood, sorry you shield isn't great but hey, soon you'll be able to afford better. Are you higher level and looking to make use of Shield Block? Great, use a sturdy shield. Don't have/don't want to use Shield Block? Good news, check out this list of nifty items that you can use, feat tax free, no matter what class you chose, no matter what feats you have.
Specialization is a good thing; but when it means that you have two strict categories, shields that only block and shields that never block, I think that we can make an improvement.
I mean, shields that specialize in blocking do that well, and we agree on this; but why on Golarion should all non-sturdy shields be so much fragile that they discourage blocking with them ever, apart from the direst of situations where a hit only barely downs you and you desperately need to stay up for that one last round? Even in that case, losing their prized shield would leave a bad taste in many players' mouth.Then again, what about the Arrow-Catching shield? What's its specialization? I mean, getting hit by an arrow instead of your squishier friend is good, but must it really break as soon as you use it once?
I absolutely love that ANY character can get great use out of a shield in PF2.
The primary, universal function of a shield is to increase AC at the expense of an action.
And once again someone (in this case me) will remind you that the reason these threads exist has literally zero relation to that.
If shields are fine because they grant anyone and everyone +2 AC, then you'd be happy if magical shields were removed entirely.
Right?
I don't like the idea of removing a challenging character choice by buffing non-blocking shields into blocking relevance. Those other options are, by and large, totally valid on their own merits. If you give them more merits, they're an obvious best choice.
When and if it happens, I'll pour one out for Sturdy Shields because what makes them good and wonderful is that they're the go to for shield blocking. If they're only marginally more effective at that than a shield with utility, they're completely worthless. The dichotomy exists currently because they're the only Common option that reliably blocks lots of damage repeatedly.
Of course you take the slightly worse blocking shield if it comes with special utility but is still valid for blocking. Its a no brainer.
Currently, I have to decide how much I want +2 to spell saves, and if thats a good trade off for my Shield Block class feature. Thats good design.
No, sorry, we are not talking about being only marginally worse at blocking. We are talking about things that can save a little bit of damage without completely blowing up.
If you are stopping half (or less) the damage of a sturdy shield, and can do it just once or maybe twice, for light hits, before breaking the shield, any character who wants to block often will still choose the sturdy one.| 11 people marked this as a favorite. |
Non-shield users: All the options.
Actual shield-users: Exactly one option.
Sounds valid.
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Shield "Block" users which want to rely on Shield Block ( and not AOO, Champion Reaction, Etc... )Non-shield users: All the options.
Actual shield-users: Excatly one option.Sounds valid.
There’s a Champion feat that gives you an extra reaction each turn for Shield Block. Another Champion feat lets you Shield Block and Champion Reaction with the same reaction, if you meet both triggers. So they aren’t exclusive.
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So the fact that you CAN build classes not to rely on shield block means that it's OK for shield block builds to be locked into one or two equipment options?
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So the fact that you CAN build classes not to rely on shield block means that it's OK for shield block builds to be locked into one or two equipment options?
Thats not dissimilar from complaining that Power Attack fighters are 'locked' into using a d10 or d12 two handed weapon. If you look at the scope of how much that narrows their weapon choice, its not a dissimilar situation. They have relatively no options!
Except, really, whats going on is that those class features lend themselves well to a particular subset of gear choices. That's generally called 'synergy' - those class features do not work equally well with all shields.
That is not inherently a problem or a flaw. It is simply the fact that they want a shield that is good for blocking for those features - which is fine.
Again, this is game design - you reward players for choosing appropriate complements to their own capabilities. Yes, those class features benefit most from a Sturdy Shield. If the Sturdy Shield was the core rulebook answer to 'Shields intended for blocking', there's not really a need for a diverse range of shield stat blocks to accommodate the role.
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If you can do it once or even twice per combat it would be way better than a sturdy one, since you won't be shieldblocking all attacks.
I really can't find the issue.
It is like if an adventurer goes to an emporium:
Adventurer: Hi, I am going to take part to an expedition and I am looking for a shield.
Salesman: Welcome. We do have different shields here. What kind of shield are you looking for?
Adventurer: Something that would help me survive the expedition.
Salesman: Well, any of these shields provide the best defense ( +2 Circ Ac ) but some of them are meant to be used to absorb blows, while others are meant to give you some more supportive feature, like a magical ward.
Adventurer: Can't I absorb a direct blow with one of those shields? ( referring to the latter )
Salesman: I really advise you not to, since they are not made to be used that way
Adventurer: That's unfair, I wanted to block at least 2 hit with that one which had a cool effect.
Salesman: Then we won't be selling any of the others, beucase those would be way better.
Adventurer: What about that other shield, there?
Salesman: DON'T LOOK AT THAT! That abomination has a special feature, but can also take a hit or two without being completely destroyed. It should not exist in this world!
If you are stopping half (or less) the damage of a sturdy shield, and can do it just once or maybe twice, for light hits, before breaking the shield, any character who wants to block often will still choose the sturdy one.You can already absorb 1 light hit even with a lvl 4 spellguard shield
(Hardness 6, HP 24, BT 12)
you can shieldblock a 17 dmg attack, blocking 6, and maintain the possibility to use the +2 ac, or shieldblock a 29 dmg attack, blocking 6, and forgo the ability to raise your shield until you repair it.
That shield is level 6, but yes, at lower levels it still kinda works. And that makes me wonder why it asbolutely shouldn't later in the game.
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Thats not dissimilar from complaining that Power Attack fighters are 'locked' into using a d10 or d12 two handed weapon. If you look at the scope of how much that narrows their weapon choice, its not a dissimilar situation. They have relatively no options!
If Power Attack required you to use exactly a Greatsword, no other weapon, and with no property runes, you can be sure many people would be complaining about that too.
Thats not dissimilar from complaining that Power Attack fighters are 'locked' into using a d10 or d12 two handed weapon. If you look at the scope of how much that narrows their weapon choice, its not a dissimilar situation. They have relatively no options!If Power Attack required you to use exactly a Greatsword, no other weapon, and with no property runes, you can be sure many people would be complaining about that too.
I disagree, Power Attack isn't actually that good in this edition so it's use isn't that wide spread, it's worse than hitting with two attacks (although actually hitting with both is trickier). It is really good for getting through DR.
But it would be silly for it to be restricted in such a way, I agree with that.
I disagree, Power Attack isn't actually that good in this edition so it's use isn't that wide spread, it's worse than hitting with two attacks (although actually hitting with both is trickier). It is really good for getting through DR.
Well, yes, you're correct about that. I just didn't want to pull it too much away from their example. The example surely would work better if it was something as build defining as Shield Block is, e.g. Double Slice or Twin Takedown. But the point still stands, choosing in which way your character wants to fight shouldn't immediately lock one of your equipment options into a spread of literally one, without even the slightest variation.
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Thats not dissimilar from complaining that Power Attack fighters are 'locked' into using a d10 or d12 two handed weapon. If you look at the scope of how much that narrows their weapon choice, its not a dissimilar situation. They have relatively no options!
I'm sorry, but you can still Power Attack using daggers and short swords. Its not as good, but you are allowed to. Blocking with a shield that is not the sturdy shield is something you're not even really allowed to do, unless "blowing 3000gp for 5 hit points" sounds like a good use of resources.
I mean, yeah, the rules let you, but most people would say that its not worth it.
There's also shields that have a special ability that only triggers when you block, but have no hit points to actually take that hit and survive.
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I mean, yeah, the rules let you, but most people would say that its not worth it.
This is exactly the situation you are in with Power Attack with a smaller weapon. You can, but its not really worth it. The consequences are different, but its a completely comparable situation.
As well (directed at other commentators) The relative number of weapons that are valid by being high damage die two-handers by comparison to the total range of available weapons for Power Attack is very small - comparably so to the representation of Sturdy Shields to the total variety of shields.
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Is the real problem that there are no other shields built for blocking? If we look at sturdy shield as being 100% for blocking but spellguard as being 0% for blocking (if I remember that right), is the bigger issue that we don't have any 75% blocking and 25% other effect shields?
I think some straight boosts to the shield pool would mitigate a lot of the problems at hand.
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If you can do it once or even twice per combat it would be way better than a sturdy one, since you won't be shieldblocking all attacks.
I really can't find the issue.
It is like if an adventurer goes to an emporium:
Adventurer: Hi, I am going to take part to an expedition and I am looking for a shield.
Salesman: Welcome. We do have different shields here. What kind of shield are you looking for?
Adventurer: Something that would help me survive the expedition.
Salesman: Well, any of these shields provide the best defense ( +2 Circ Ac ) but some of them are meant to be used to absorb blows, while others are meant to give you some more supportive feature, like a magical ward.
Adventurer: Can't I absorb a direct blow with one of those shields? ( referring to the latter )
Salesman: I really advise you not to, since they are not made to be used that way
Adventurer: That's unfair, I wanted to block at least 2 hit with that one which had a cool effect.
Salesman: Then we won't be selling any of the others, beucase those would be way better.
Finally
What you are basically describing is known as a "trap option" in the game. Nowhere in the rules or advice within the game does it mention these 2 versions of shields, and it provides Shield Block stats (Hardness, BT, HP) for all the shields in the game. Some of the trap options even require that the shields be used to block in order to activate the special ability!
Players would need to go on forums to learn about these "2 types of shields". This means the game rewards player research/knowledge expertise not to fall into "trap options" within the game, which I thought was something the game writers/creators wanted to do away with. Instead they are created new trap options that were not even in the previous edition or other gaming predecessors.
So congratulations, now "PF2e pros" can laugh at the newbies who actually try to use a class ability or feat with a shield of the "wrong type". Rookies!
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If you can do it once or even twice per combat it would be way better than a sturdy one, since you won't be shieldblocking all attacks.
I really can't find the issue.
It is like if an adventurer goes to an emporium:
Adventurer: Hi, I am going to take part to an expedition and I am looking for a shield.
Salesman: Welcome. We do have different shields here. What kind of shield are you looking for?
Adventurer: Something that would help me survive the expedition.
Salesman: Well, any of these shields provide the best defense ( +2 Circ Ac ) but some of them are meant to be used to absorb blows, while others are meant to give you some more supportive feature, like a magical ward.
Adventurer: Can't I absorb a direct blow with one of those shields? ( referring to the latter )
Salesman: I really advise you not to, since they are not made to be used that way
Adventurer: That's unfair, I wanted to block at least 2 hit with that one which had a cool effect.
Salesman: Then we won't be selling any of the others, beucase those would be way better.
Finally
What you are basically describing is known as a "trap option" in the game. Nowhere in the rules or advice within the game does it mention these 2 versions of shields, and it provides Shield Block stats (Hardness, BT, HP) for all the shields in the game. Some of the trap options even require that the shields be used to block in order to activate the special ability!
Players would need to go on forums to learn about these "2 types of shields". This means the game rewards player research/knowledge expertise not to fall into "trap options" within the game, which I thought was something the game writers/creators wanted to do away with. Instead they are created new trap options that were not even in the previous edition or other gaming predecessors.
So congratulations, now "PF2e pros" can laugh at the newbies who actually try to use a class ability or feat with a shield of the "wrong type"....
That's not at all the situation. The stats of the shields are apparent - you don't have to Shield Block blind. When you get hit, you know the result if you Block.
This is apparent to the newest player - if they find difficulty using the shield they're using, most likely they look up to see if there are other shields they can use.
I have never seen a shield destroyed, and I don't particularly expect to unless its non-magical. There is no trap here - its all in the open.
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That's not at all the situation. The stats of the shields are apparent - you don't have to Shield Block blind. When you get hit, you know the result if you Block.
Sooo... Forge Warden is a consumable?
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That's not at all the situation. The stats of the shields are apparent - you don't have to Shield Block blind. When you get hit, you know the result if you Block.Sooo... Forge Warden is a consumable?
Uh, I don't see why it would be.
Its AOE fire resistance for your party.
You can block and use its blocking ability against any attack that causes less than 30 damage, which is a standard attack at its level.
As well, that's a lot of low rolled damage for several levels past that.
The main thing about it though is the shared fire resistance, from what I see.
Its a perfectly valid level 10 shield.