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...shooting myself in the foot, options wise.Except... that's how all specialists eventually feel. My great weapon fighter player found herself in a fight recently where any hit she landed resulted in massive counter-damage, and she was in a bad way. Then she pulled out a longbow and kept fighting. It wasn't as good as her normal maul, but it was a setback associated with her normal specialization in melee weapons.
Did her entire gimmick suffer temporarily? Yes.
Was she actually denied options other than two handed weapons? No.
Exactly the same way your shield specialist should use a Sturdy or similar shield as their primary tool, and switch to a backup as appropriate.
Shield block isn't the only shield-related thing you can focus on, though. Class feats augmenting Raising a shield also exist, and I can pursue all that become available to me, just like the previous example with Shield block. And for having the unmitigated gall to take 100% of all non-Shield Block shield related feats, my wide and various selection of shield options...
Doesn't tank the way it would with Shield Block specializing. Wait, what? I thought specializing required such an outcome. If it doesn't for non-Shield Block specializing, why should Shield Block specializing get the shaft?
I'm going to blow your mind - focusing on shields isn't the same thing as Specializing in Shield Block.
Because - and this is the trippy part - if it doesn't reduce your options, its not specialization.
Focusing on Raise Shield like that is just making you better at using shields.
Its sortof like how a ranger focusing on Dual Wield doesn't really reduce his pool of options for weapons from level 1-20, but a Fighter does (for most of it).
Well, isn't that logic conveniently circular? It reduces your options, therefore it's specialization, which inevitably reduces your options.
So how about this for a mind-blowing trip instead? Improved Shield Block use never needed to be specializing (the way you're defining it at least) in the first place. We could have had it where low-level non-Shield Block "specializing", low-level Shield Block "specializing", high-level non-Shield Block "specializing", AND high-level Shield Block "specializing" ALL leave your shield choice variety wide and free.
Instead, both Shield Block specializers and non-Shield Block specializers spend the early part of the game enjoying all their options until the former get the rug pulled out from under them.
I don't consider them identical, but I do consider them approximately equivalent. I certainly know which one I've found more use from, and its not the AoO.
You really prefer Shield Block?
I consider AOO one of the best Reactions in the game currently, but don't think Shield Block would be worth the feat slot except in exceptional circumstances (IE, im a monk and have action advantage to allow for raising a shield). I'd rather have extra circus tricks or something.
Thats a pretty interestingly wide gap in value assessment.
Well, isn't that logic conveniently circular? It reduces your options, therefore it's specialization, which inevitably reduces your options.
Its not circular so much as its the literal nature of specialization - you focus on one thing above others. It follows that the related tools will need to specialise to accommodate. By focusing on Shield Block, you're essentially Specializing in Shields good at Shield Blocking. Ie, Sturdy Shields.
If you arent specializing in one area of the field of... Shields, I guess... it follows that all shields get better.
The key is, there's a fundamental difference between each approach.
You really prefer Shield Block?
I consider AOO one of the best Reactions in the game currently, but don't think Shield Block would be worth the feat slot except in exceptional circumstances (IE, im a monk and have action advantage to allow for raising a shield). I'd rather have extra circus tricks or something.
Considering how much Shield Block has saved me and my party since we started playing this current campaign, I'm definitely on the boat that Shield Block can be just as useful as AoO, if not more. The reason I stopped using it after turning into a Barbarian was half because I don't think it makes that much sense for my character to be so defensively-focused anymore, and half because I was frustrated with being stuck with Sturdy Shield forever.
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...shooting myself in the foot, options wise.Except... that's how all specialists eventually feel. My great weapon fighter player found herself in a fight recently where any hit she landed resulted in massive counter-damage, and she was in a bad way. Then she pulled out a longbow and kept fighting. It wasn't as good as her normal maul, but it was a setback associated with her normal specialization in melee weapons.
Did her entire gimmick suffer temporarily? Yes.
Was she actually denied options other than two handed weapons? No.
Exactly the same way your shield specialist should use a Sturdy or similar shield as their primary tool, and switch to a backup as appropriate.
Shield block isn't the only shield-related thing you can focus on, though. Class feats augmenting Raising a shield also exist, and I can pursue all that become available to me, just like the previous example with Shield block. And for having the unmitigated gall to take 100% of all non-Shield Block shield related feats, my wide and various selection of shield options...
Doesn't tank the way it would with Shield Block specializing. Wait, what? I thought specializing required such an outcome. If it doesn't for non-Shield Block specializing, why should Shield Block specializing get the shaft?
I'm going to blow your mind - focusing on shields isn't the same thing as Specializing in Shield Block.
Because - and this is the trippy part - if it doesn't reduce your options, its not specialization.
Focusing on Raise Shield like that is just making you better at using shields.
Its sortof like how a ranger focusing on Dual Wield doesn't really reduce his pool of options for weapons from level 1-20, but a Fighter does (for most of it).
This is just...nonsense. Focusing on shields is specialisation, because it is reducing your options. If I invest a bunch of Feats into shield use (not necessarily shield block), I am not taking feats for other stuff, therefore I have less options in the battlefield. That's literally what specialisation is.
You're arguing that further specialisation should come with more limits. Does, "I'm a two-handed fighter" is less limiting than "I'm a two-handed Fighter and chose Polearms as my weapon group" this is true. And in that vein "I'm a shield-using fighter" is different than "I'm a shield-using fighter that specialises in Shield block".
The issue here is that the fighter transition isn't nearly as limiting for the two-hander (or duelist, or ranged, or whatever) as it is for the shield blocking Fighter. Why? Because while the two-hander may be limited to Polearms in this case, he can create a wide variety of items by using runes. The shield block fighter has exactly one option: Sturdy Shields.
Are all Fighter weapon groups as free? No. If you choose Hammers, and want to go two handed, you also only have one option: the Maul. They're still way better off than the shield-block Fighter due to runes.
And more importantly, the Maul was the only two-handed Hammer available from Level 1. It's not like they had the option of Maul, Lucerne Hammer and Earthshaker but past a certain level everything but the Maul ceased to be able to do the job it's supposed to do.
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If you arent specializing in one area of the field of... Shields, I guess... it follows that all shields get better.
The key is, there's a fundamental difference between each approach.
This seems like a very convenient logic to say that everything is always working as intended. If the specialization narrows your fun options too much, it's working as intended because that's what specializations should do. If it still leaves you with fun options to play with, it's also working as intended because it's not a real specialization, it's just focusing on something. What?
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Let me try it this way -
All Shields start equally viable.
If I begin investing in a feature whose primary function is determined by two stats on my shield - Hardness and HP - then the more I invest in that feature the more valuable Hardness and HP become.
If the Hardness and HP are not the defining trait of All Shields (and instead, that trait is the benefit of Raise Shield), then it is accurate to say that I have specialized in whichever Shield has the best Hardness and HP.
It is not a game design flaw that all shields do not value Hardness and HP. Most clearly just list those values as equal to the Mundane Steel Shield they're built from. That seems pretty consistent, and consistency implies intent.
If I instead invest in class features that apply to a universal feature of All Shields, such as Raise Shield, I am not specializing in any particular type of shield.
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No one is saying it's a design flaw that not all shields value Hardness and HP. What I think is a design flaw is that 95% of them don't, while way more than half of the shield-focused options rely on Shield Block. If the game truly considers Shield Block to be an uber-niche build, why have so many feat options for it? Why have an entire subclass for Champion that solely focuses on it? This level of pigeonholing doesn't happen with any other specialized build in the game, not even close. Heck, you can be specialized into throwing a bladed yoyo with strings at people and you'll still have many more options than a shield blocker does.
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Well, for changes I'd like to see, a short list summing them up a lot would be:
- Increase the HP and Hardness of most shields to a point where they are behind Sturdy Shields, but still useable for blocking once or twice per battle. The amount can vary depending on the strength of the shield's effect, but it should have a bare minimum and this bare minimum should actually scale with the strength of enemies.
- If there are some shields that, for balance purposes, should not have the ability to block at all, like I suppose the Reflective Shield for example is intended to be, just explicitly say so. "This shield can't block". It's better than putting some pointless stats that feel like a trap.
- Make more shields that are closer (not equal) to a Sturdy Shield in blocking effectiveness, but either block in different ways, have an ability based on blocking or have a minor effect unrelated to blocking.
- Actually start printing higher level versions of the shields that are meant for blocking, so they don't become absolutely obsolete after a few levels and you are forced to swap them out.
Those are the changes I would like to see. Though, given the status quo, I think changes 1 and 2 are very unlikely to happen, but I'd realistically like to see at least 3 and 4 come into play as soon as possible, so shield blockers can start experiencing the wonders of build variety with all the other cool kids.
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How about viewing this from the other side? From reading this whole thread it seems like spellguard shield is too good. +2 to saves and a +2 to AC?
Maybe everyone being able to take the Raise Shield action is too good. Maybe shields should have a proficiency again so shields aren't a utility magic item slot to get what is best for your character. Like all those characters who weren't ever seen as using shields but its too good not to.
What really enhances their gameplay ( more than everything else I mean) is the lvl 8 extra block, which would be available by lvl 16 for anybody else who took the champ or fighter dedication.
Only that most shield are not even sustainable for one block. And here we go again - Sturdy shield, rare shield or totally blown money
Anyway, even without being a paladin, I would have saved it for the Redeemer or liberator one instead of using a shield block ( more Dr, 15yd, extra effect).
You can use that reaction on allies and the shield block on yourself. This is rather situational. Also there is an action that combines both of them, which is quite good, but the best feats are not worth taking if you can barely use it
Its a game mechanic, and your cognitive dissonance is coming from how you choose to perceive it.Maybe you are better at self-deception than I am, but I cannot choose to perceive things other than as they are.
It would be one thing if we were talking about a movie, image, video or something. We aren't. We're talking about words on a page, that each of us assigns meaning and narrative to. We form our own images or perspectives.
...so yeah, if it doesn't make sense, I re-contextualize it or think about it differently until it fits the facts or the rules. Its not self deception to approach a problem from a different perspective, or consider someone else's perspective on it, or to try and consider it from a perspective other than your own.
That's empathy.
I've considered what it looks like if I'm wrong, and the consequences of that. I've introspected on what the game looks like from your point of view, and the issues you perceive. I've compared all that to the facts, and what I believe the intent and goals of the developers were.
I've actually built a case for my position, which has been ignored repeatedly despite the fact that it actually fits the game as it exists, and not as I desire it to be.
The opposing viewpoint still appears to boil down to "I don't like how the game doesn't reflect how I desire Shield Block to work." as opposed to "Shield Block does not work as intended." or "Shields aren't valuable and a strong strategy." or "I can't make Shield Block work when I play it as intended with the tools provided to me by the game."
The item in bold is not a problem with the game. The items that follow would be.
What really enhances their gameplay ( more than everything else I mean) is the lvl 8 extra block, which would be available by lvl 16 for anybody else who took the champ or fighter dedication.Only that most shield are not even sustainable for one block. And here we go again - Sturdy shield, rare shield or totally blown money
I'm going to take a random sample here. Dragonslayer's Shield (level 9) vs a level 12 creature, high damage. 24 damage in a hit is needed to break the shield (more if you have other effects improving it like Shield Ally, but let's ignore that).
Creature doing high damage at level 12 is 3d10+14. This means that in this incredibly bad scenario where you're blocking a hit from a high damage enemy 3 levels above the shield, you still have a 12% chance of being able to block a hit. If you drop down to level 9, then it will block any two below-average hits.
"But," you'll say, "I have to be able to consistently block multiple high damage hits from a creature of the same level as the shield, or it's not functional".
And to that I'll say, "get a sturdy shield, that's literally what you want".
Interesting note in this comparison is that a lot of shields level 10+ have numbers issues, in that they have lower numbers than the level 9 Dragonslayer's Shield. I'd think ones like the Jawbreaker Shield are much more accurate in terms of where they should be on the number scale.
I'd think ones like the Jawbreaker Shield are much more accurate in terms of where they should be on the number scale.
Holy cow, I hadn't seen that one. Its another new shield in expansion content that is more or less exactly in line with what people want.
It has relevant durability, and a utility ability that is directly related to (and only usable) while blocking.
Its Uncommon, but that's because its not in the core book and requires GM approval - which most should probably give.
More evidence that we'll continue to get the content people want as we go, and that the shield distribution in the core rulebook is probably intended to be the essentials (IE, the Sturdy Shield is a redundant fallback to cover all Shield Block needs) and we'll get variety as we go.
I have talked about the Jawbreaker Shield on this thread as the only 'non-blocking' shield in the higher levels that is somewhat functional at blocking. It actually has higher hardness than what the formula would suggest (12 instead of 10), probably because the multiple special abilities it has are either weak (+1 striking weapon at level 12) or situational (a bonus vs swallow whole and a nice reaction against bite attacks aren't comparable to, say, a flat +2 saves vs magic).
Besides, it's interesting that the powerful boon of the Spellguard shield keeps coming as an example of why you shouldn't be able to block with something like that, when it's one of the shields that actually can be used for blocking one or two blows.
The point is that you won't be using the shieldblock until lvl 8.
We are bordering on the ridiculous here. If you think that a Champion will never use Shield Block before level 8 that's fine as your opinion, but it's definitely not a thing that can be used to justify whatever game design choices.
We are bordering on the ridiculous here. If you think that a Champion will never use Shield Block before level 8 that's fine as your opinion, but it's definitely not a thing that can be used to justify whatever game design choices.
I'll back you up here. The whole gameplay loop of Champions is that they make attacking their allies a living hell, forcing you to swing into the extra-high AC and shield of the Champion themself, or be utterly wreckt by their Champion Reaction.
Then, their passive mitigation from AC kicks in. With a Sturdy Shield (or any shield they can block with - Shield Ally really helps here) they then further mitigate that damage to the point that the whole party just survives.
That kicks in at like, level 1. It doesn't take till level 8 - they just continue getting better at it then.
That said, there's a lot of good stuff at level 8 for Champions. Quick Block is by no means the 'best option', its merely competitive.
Note on Spellguard Shield - I keep bringing it up because its insanely useful well after its item level, because it justifies its own use completely outside of its ability to block. It'd be fine at its level if it were Hardness 0 and explicitly made of glass.
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I've basically been avoiding posting for the last...white because I like doing Other Things.
But I had to jump in here with this:
I'd think ones like the Jawbreaker Shield are much more accurate in terms of where they should be on the number scale.Holy cow, I hadn't seen that one. Its another new shield in expansion content that is more or less exactly in line with what people want.
There might be a reason for that. The GMG suggestions on creating custom shields states:
SHIELDS
Use the sturdy shields as benchmarks for the best possible
shield Hardness, HP, and BT for a shield of that level. Your
new shield should have less than those benchmarks since it
also does something else, and you can use the magnitude of
the reduction to build room for creative defensive abilities
Gosh, its almost like they realized that the stats for all the non-sturdy shields were a joke and every shield that's come out since the PHB has been consistent with the GMG's design guideline.
Does anyone ever play a character who buys and uses a shield but does not have the Shield Block feat? For such characters, this entire thread would be moot.
Does anyone ever play a character who buys and uses a shield but does not have the Shield Block feat? For such characters, this entire thread would be moot.
That's actually one of the core complaints people have about Shield selection - that, because there is no shield proficiency, anyone can pick up and use shields like the Spellguard Shield for its full benefits and its bonuses with no 'opportunity cost' for its lacking Shield Block stats.
Whether that is an issue is something that is contested.
I'm of the position that is a Feature and not a bug, but other find it frustrating.
Does anyone ever play a character who buys and uses a shield but does not have the Shield Block feat? For such characters, this entire thread would be moot.
Actually if your character have a free hand, than most minmaxers will pick a shield regardless of concept. My Monk could easily use one, for example, but given it doesn't fit with my concept I don't use it, even though I know it would require low investment and it wouldn't harm my action economy that much.
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Also because people always seem to forget this is the ability for Arrow-Catching:
Trigger A ranged weapon Strike targets a creature within 15 feet of you when you have this shield raised, and the attacker has not yet rolled their attack; Effect The triggering Strike targets you instead of its normal target. If it hits, you gain the effects of the Shield Block reaction.One developer might say that shields are not meant to be destroyed. But Arrow Catching Shield has no choice but be destroyed. The ability triggers before damage is even rolled.
Temperans, maybe the Arrow-Catching shield should be considered a Cursed object, even if it isn't labeled as one! You could even enhance the curse by saying once it is picked up, the shield automatically counts as "raised" whenever an enemy fires a missile weapon at anyone within 15' of you, enemy or ally! Further, it passes all the damage on to the cursed individual carrying the shield without taking any damage itself (it aims the missile at the person, not the shield itself, so it gives no protection from the attacks)!
A person carrying the shield would need a Remove Curse to be cast on them in order to be able to drop the shield, otherwise it takes up his shield hand and can't be put down.
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The opposing viewpoint still appears to boil down to "I don't like how the game doesn't reflect how I desire Shield Block to work." as opposed to "Shield Block does not work as intended." or "Shields aren't valuable and a strong strategy." or "I can't make Shield Block work when I play it as intended with the tools provided to me by the game."
The item in bold is not a problem with the game. The items that follow would be.
If one person doesn't like how shields work, that's not a problen with the game. If many people don't like how shields work, that might be a problem with the game. Or it might not be. I'm not the one who decides, and you aren't either. What we're doing here is expressing our dissatisfaction with a mechanic and hoping something is done about it. If nothing changes, oh well, I can go back to not playing any shield blockers ever again and say that I tried.
If there's one thing that Paizo learned during the 2e Playtest is that a mechanic being "well-designed" analyzing it in a white room with a flowchart means nothing if people don't think it's fun. I said it before but I think I'll have to say it again: stop talking like mechanics will only ever be changed if they're objectively broken or don't align with the original design intent. That is easily and factually proven wrong if you look at something like the changes to unarmed attack proficiency or, even more, the future changes to container rules and wearing vs carrying vs wielding items.
If nothing changes, oh well, I can go back to not playing any shield blockers ever again and say that I tried.
If you could clarify something for me -
Is the current trajectory of new shield releases, such as the reforging shield and jawbreaker shield (and the shield creation guidelines Draco18s helpfully copied from the GMG) not to your liking?
Does it really require massive errata to the core book to "fix" this, despite all the tools needed to run a shield block character already existing (ie, Sturdy Shields), albeit with "limited" options?
The Sturdy Shield is the baseline option, and covers all the "needs" in the Core Book, we have an actual trend of new items and guidelines that support peoples desires... what IS the issue at that point?
What everyone appears to want is on the way. Until then, you're covered. Is this not solved, other than minor corrections to items everyone agrees could be tweaked?
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If nothing changes, oh well, I can go back to not playing any shield blockers ever again and say that I tried.
If you could clarify something for me -
Is the current trajectory of new shield releases, such as the reforging shield and jawbreaker shield (and the shield creation guidelines Draco18s helpfully copied from the GMG) not to your liking?
Does it really require massive errata to the core book to "fix" this, despite all the tools needed to run a shield block character already existing (ie, Sturdy Shields), albeit with "limited" options?
The Sturdy Shield is the baseline option, and covers all the "needs" in the Core Book, we have an actual trend of new items and guidelines that support peoples desires... what IS the issue at that point?
What everyone appears to want is on the way. Until then, you're covered. Is this not solved, other than minor corrections to items everyone agrees could be tweaked?
While I'm glad that the new shields aren't paper (which only serves to further validate our point that the baseline shields have issues), just printing more material will not make the baseline shields go away, it will only make them obsolete. Furthermore, this also will not change the fact that special material shields (and as a whole, really) are a very significant aspect of this issue that won't be addressed (we at least agree that special material shields are broken, right?).
(we at least agree that special material shields are broken, right?).
We agree they're useless, and should be rewritten if their intent is to be useful for anything.
I dont know why they were printed like they are, but the best explanation I can come up with (IE, the motivation that makes logical sense even if the result is unsatisfying) is that they were included just to make sure the question of what an Adamantine Shields stats would be were answered, and the costs were set based on the price of the raw materials (not based on what they're actually worth).
That explanation tries to explain what we got in the book - not to justify it.
In general though, I'm not sure these new shields really change anything about the core design - I did think they more or less addressed peoples concerns though.
Not all shields are useful for blocking, or need to be (IE, Spellguard).
The Sturdy Shield addresses all "Build Needs", is common, and in the core book. Its essentially a redundant failsafe for players against bad shield design. Therefore, its good for the game.
There are several "misses" in the core rulebook, but also several shields that work fine or great, including for example the Spined Shield which is in "the middle area".
New shields are already filling in options for the "middle area" between Sturdies and Spellguards.
How isn't that a compromise that shows the system works, options will be available over time?
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Is the current trajectory of new shield releases, such as the reforging shield and jawbreaker shield (and the shield creation guidelines Draco18s helpfully copied from the GMG) not to your liking?
Does it really require massive errata to the core book to "fix" this, despite all the tools needed to run a shield block character already existing (ie, Sturdy Shields), albeit with "limited" options?
Yes and no. Not making a shield blocker character ever again might have been a bit of an exaggeration, but I think this only partially solves the problem, and not exactly in the best way. Here is a couple of reasons:
1 - All or almost all post-CRB shields that are decent for blocking so far have been uncommon, or worse, rare. A rare item means you can expect absolutely zero consistency in being able to put your hands in it or not, even if your GM is usually lenient with uncommon. It's a very specific treasure.
2 - It 'solves' the issue by virtue of power creep, if the base shields from the Core Rulebook are kept as they are. It's the same reason why I don't think "print more Alchemical items" should be the catch-all solution to fixing that mess that is the Alchemist.
3 - Because of number 2, it means that anyone who only buys the core stuff of the game is forever stuck with all the issues mentioned here. I don't think buying extra books should be required to have any semblance of interesting build choice for something that has so much support as a mechanic in the core book itself.
4 - Considering how shields are one specific piece of equipment, let's say printing more shields and doing nothing else is the purposed solution. How long is it actually gonna take until shield blockers have at least three or four interesting choices every level? Probably years, unless they decide to print multi-level versions of every blocking shield from now on. Which honestly, would be awesome, but that doesn't look like it's gonna happen from what we got so far.
5 - This whole paradigm still means that shield dabblers get 90% of the interesting options while people actually focusing on them are stuck in a much, much narrower part of the spectrum. Having 3 or 4 actual options for each given level would be nice, but not so much if by the same point the Wizard who decided to use a shield because he has nothing better to do with his hand has 300 total options to choose from.
- just a minor part of the DR given by a shield ( raise shield offer the highest part of DR )
higher AC is [u]NOT[/u]DR, it is a different way of migitating damage, true, but it is something different
- Not the best use a character can do with its reaction ( I'd say average, but truth is that I consider it below average.
your opinion - it is still something a few classes get and want to use and a lot of people end up disliking because of the shield balance
And note that the fact that shield block is not good as an AoO or something similar is definitely fine the way it is!
totally different niche, I don't think they are straightup comparable
also: there are a wagonload of feats to build up on the base on shield block, only very few for a AoOIt's an extra, not mandatory, possibility.
Yes, an extra, that is easily percieved as a fun option to play with but leaves many players bored or disappointed in the end
The core of the issue is you are either ok that shield block only scales off of a single type of magic items (sturdy).
I would much prefer that hp scaled with item level and only hardness depended on the sturdy bonus. That way items like arrow catcher or forgewarden still get a decent amount of uses without breaking but the amount of hp's your reducing isn't scaling.
To me it's quite different. It's like that somebody seems not to see the balance between a sturdy shield and an utility shield.
Somehow, I still don't get why, people consider that shieldblock is a must have, while it's instead:
- just a minor part of the DR given by a shield ( raise shield offer the highest part of DR )
- Not the best use a character can do with its reaction ( I'd say average, but truth is that I consider it below average.
And note that the fact that shield block is not good as an AoO or something similar is definitely fine the way it is!
It's an extra, not mandatory, possibility.
Comparing the Spellguard, jawbreaker and sturdy shield gives an excellent picture of how balance is meant to be ( and jawbreaker is a new one, so no crb ).
The thing is if I am a fighter and want to use aggressive block, powerful shove, shield warden, quick block, flinging shove I am going to need to be shield blocking. That's 5 feats that require the use of the shield block reaction.
If I have also taken reflexive shield, re-active shield, paragon stance, improved reflexive shield that's 4 feats that become useless if I break my shield by blocking.
That's a lot tied into the importance of your shields hardness and hp. If you take all of the shield feats and we know a lot of players like to go all in that is 80% of your class feats.
And there's a shield option to accommodate that build in the core rulebook, and it does it very well.
If there were zero options in the core rulebook to make those choices viable, that would be a problem.
Saying "I want more options for my build." Is fine.
Saying "I wish there were more options for my build in the core rulebook." Is also fine.
Saying "There should have been more options for my build in the core rulebook." Is unsubstantiated at best, and ignores one of the fundamental goals in a core resource- making sure all builds have access to the tools they need to succeed.
The Sturdy Shield does that. Anything additional is a luxury - its fine to want those, its not a problem if you dont have them yet.
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Somehow, I still don't get why, people consider that shieldblock is a must have.
I don't think anyone here ever said Shield Block is a must have. But maybe people like the mechanic. Maybe they think it should be given more importance in the equipment department and not treated like an afterthought, with how many feats (and some entire class features) it has supporting it. Shield Block is the reason I gave sword and board a chance for the first time since 3.5, because it has historically been a very bland fightng style and Shield Block is something that makes a shield feel like a shield. And it was really fun for a while, but the fact that I knew I was severely limiting my item options for the next 17 levels took away from that fun really fast.
You and Krispy keep talking like anyone who disagrees with you is misinterpreting how shields work or what's the intent behind it. No, we know how it currently works, and we don't like it. That's the whole point! You two keep treating peopls as if expressing dissatisfaction with a mechanic from a fun perspective was a crime and we can only not like something if we have three academic articles and four spreadsheets to back it up.
Who among you who want's "a reasonable amount of hp while maintaining featured stuff" would go with the Jawbreaker one?
Its hardness is fine, and while I personally don't put a lot of value into its specific benefits (they're a bit niche, but not bad), its HP is a bit low (HP is worse than sturdy's BT).
But yeah, if I was fighting a bunch of beasts with bite attacks I'd probably take it. Smashing in the thing's face means not being able to block, so the HP amount isn't as important. But it has enough HP and DR to be used to block more than once.
The Fort effect is almost useless though. DC 31 is very low. 5 of the 11 monsters in the bestiary 1 have Fort bonuses of +25 (most of them with a bite attack). The lowest is +17 (with no bite attack). The rest are +20 or +23. And the monster only needs a success to get "no effect."
Who among you who want's "a reasonable amount of hp while maintaining featured stuff" would go with the Jawbreaker one?Its hardness is fine, and while I personally don't put a lot of value into its specific benefits (they're a bit niche, but not bad), its HP is a bit low (HP is worse than sturdy's BT).
But yeah, if I was fighting a bunch of beasts with bite attacks I'd probably take it. Smashing in the thing's face means not being able to block, so the HP amount isn't as important. But it has enough HP and DR to be used to block more than once.
I think the key is, as a shield character you'd (general you, not trying to talk for you) be likely to use it if it was the new shield you found on an adventure.
Would you agree with that?
Who among you who want's "a reasonable amount of hp while maintaining featured stuff" would go with the Jawbreaker one?
I ask you to answer having in mind its bonuses in terms of hardness and hp, then the featured bonuses ( which are way lower than a spellguard shield and way more situationals ).
To be honest, I think the Jawbreaker Shield, while at least showing that they're willing to have a high level shield that can take a hit, kinda sucks. It gives up way too many stats for an effect that only works against a specific, named kind of attack. Instead of being like, 70-80% of the way to Sturdy with a situational but nice effect, it's 40% of the way to Sturdy with an effect so situational you might never get to use it once in a campaign.
Currently, from all the printed shields, I think the only ones that are good enough to even consider using for a shield blocker are the Spined and the Reforging Shield.
I think the key is, as a shield character you'd (general you, not trying to talk for you) be likely to use it if it was the new shield you found on an adventure.
Would you agree with that?
Found it? Didn't have access to a comparable level study? Was fighting a lot of wild animals? Sure.
Its not bad. But I wouldn't buy it when building a character for a generic campaign.