I could see Hunter/Summoner/Spiritualist getting kind of bundled together as the Major Pet Class.I’m still curious what the Arcane leg of that will be. Some kind of Golem I suppose. Or elementals, but that’s not as fun."Elementals" might include genie-binding. It's definitely weird to think of Summoner as the divine leg, though.
I suppose it could be an eidolon type for each summon spell line?
That makes the most sense to me, within reason. A level 1 base form of each line, with scaling proficiencies and eventually added abilities you can select from.
Probably not Giants I would hope.
Good point about genies as well. I tend to forget about them.
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I could see Hunter/Summoner/Spiritualist getting kind of bundled together as the Major Pet Class.I’m still curious what the Arcane leg of that will be. Some kind of Golem I suppose. Or elementals, but that’s not as fun."Elementals" might include genie-binding. It's definitely weird to think of Summoner as the divine leg, though.
I suppose it could be an eidolon type for each summon spell line?
That makes the most sense to me, within reason. A level 1 base form of each line, with scaling proficiencies and eventually added abilities you can select from.
Probably not Giants I would hope.
Good point about genies as well. I tend to forget about them.
I love the idea of Unifying the pet classes and tying the different type of pets into magical traditions. Primal, hunter; Occult, Spiritualist; Arcane, Golems; Divine, Summoner.
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Now I'm chuckling over the idea of an actual Angel Summoner class.
I'd definitely like Summoners to be an arcane means of summoning outer-planes entities. Since that's currently that's tied pretty heavily to divine (and with god callers as one of the major lore representation for the class), I can understand if Summoner doesn't break the trend. But, given that we've got plenty of arcane diabolists and the like, I'm sure that's not going to remain exclusive forever.
Summoners arent divine casters thou, they are explicitly "practitioners of the arcane arts" specially working with binding spirits and things. The only thing that is "divine" about them is that Unchained Summoner had access to Eidolons from specific planes. But honestly that should have nothing to do with your magic source.
Trying to tie Summoners to Divine casting would honestly be weirdest retcon. At least Sorcerer kept the Arcane list for some bloodline so it works as "there are unknown ways to change list". But Summoner? It just wouldn't make sense.
Lots of things were true in PF1 that aren’t anymore. Like arcane casters being able to summon outsiders. Or, in fact, outsiders existing at all.
If the class was called “Binders” then arcane would remain the most appropriate tradition. That’s not the name of the class though, nor was binding its second most important ability. Something’s gotta give there.
Edit: If it does wind up Arcane, since arcane binding is certainly still a thing, I would expect it to explicitly move from a summoning class to a binding one, with all the additional vulnerability that implies.
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Summoners arent divine casters thou, they are explicitly "practitioners of the arcane arts" specially working with binding spirits and things. The only thing that is "divine" about them is that Unchained Summoner had access to Eidolons from specific planes. But honestly that should have nothing to do with your magic source.
Trying to tie Summoners to Divine casting would honestly be weirdest retcon. At least Sorcerer kept the Arcane list for some bloodline so it works as "there are unknown ways to change list". But Summoner? It just wouldn't make sense.
Lots of things were true in PF1 that aren’t anymore. Like arcane casters being able to summon outsiders. Or, in fact, outsiders existing at all.
If the class was called “Binders” then arcane would remain the most appropriate tradition. That’s not the name of the class though, nor was binding its second most important ability. Something’s gotta give there.
Edit: If it does wind up Arcane, since arcane binding is certainly still a thing, I would expect it to explicitly move from a summoning class to a binding one, with all the additional vulnerability that implies.
I'm still of the opinion that they will not be "casters" at all and instead will have a slew of focus spells and maybe some innate ones because none of the four spell lists suit the summoner especially well. Also your comment on outsiders seems excessively pedantic, they absolutely still exist they have just been recatagorized. Moreover the things that summoners normally summon tend closer to monitors than fiend or celestials, which is something no one can summon now.
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Now I'm chuckling over the idea of an actual Angel Summoner class.
Then BMX bandit can be a whole new class!
While I like the idea of tying them thematically to to casting traditions, I don't think that implies they must be casters. They could choose between the 4 traditions and gain an appropriate companion while still only having focus spells like a monk. Or, companions could have an associated tradition, much like sorcerer bloodlines, which would separate the summoner class based on what they summon, and what tradition that's associated with. Almost exactly as sorcerers are right now.
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I do wish they would explore more of the things in the divine end of things (i.e. spiritual + vital essences) that are largely unrelated to deities and their organizational structure. Like the Sarkorian religious tradition (from whence the Summoner class derives) literally called them "God Callers" and revered things more immediate and probably smaller scale than and unrelated to "Abadar, Desna, etc."
Monks have their ki powers be either divine or occult spells, so there's no reason you can't make the focus powers for the summoner go in whichever traditions fit best.
I'd be a little disappointed if the analog to the 'baseline' summoner was Divine in PF2, personally. I liked the PF1 class being arcane.
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Interesting to think about on the note of Monks being Divine/Occult.
It makes me think that Kinetecist might fit pretty well using a similar choose a tradition between the Arcane or Primal which I really think makes a LOT of sense and can open up more variety of in the Class at large since BOTH of these Traditions are extremely heavy in terms of "Elemental Forces" and it could present itself as some Kinetecits who learn to "work with" the elements via the Primal Tradition and others who "bend reality to their will" via Arcane talents.
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Interesting to think about on the note of Monks being Divine/Occult.
It makes me think that Kinetecist might fit pretty well using a similar choose a tradition between the Arcane or Primal which I really think makes a LOT of sense and can open up more variety of in the Class at large since BOTH of these Traditions are extremely heavy in terms of "Elemental Forces" and it could present itself as some Kinetecits who learn to "work with" the elements via the Primal Tradition and others who "bend reality to their will" via Arcane talents.
Well, the reason it's those two specifically is that they use the Spiritual Essence, which is what Monks are tapping into directly without really touching anything else. Your idea about Kineticists using Arcane/Primal makes sense with that reasoning since they'd be tapping into the Material Essence by itself without really touching anything else.
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"Occult" sort of switched meanings between editions. I'm honestly not sure if the Occultist is an Occult caster anymore.
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I like the idea that the monk is occult/divine because the monk only cares about spiritual essence (which is shared between the traditions) so the kineticist could be arcane/primal because the kineticist only cares about the material essence.
You similarly have creative space for a class that only cares about the mental essence and a class that only cares about the vital essence.
Kineticists seem pretty firmly primal, at least with how they were designed in PF1 (the description of them tapping the Ethereal plane notwithstanding). I'd love to see them push into Arcane though, channeling illusions and force effects as well as positive and negative energies from Life Essence. Now that we have mental damage, that seems pretty possible.
I do hope that Kineticist keeps its occult trappings; it would be a shame to have it lose Aether or be locked into nature theming.
Eh. I never really felt it was all that occult to begin with, except for the burn mechanic fitting right into the Low-Magic and Horror genres that seem to have inspired Occult Adventures. Now that PF2 has defined occult, rather than it being a loose genre feel, it seems even less occult.
Edit: Aether I would see as becoming more mental. I'm biased though; I never particularly enjoyed Aether as a name. Call it Astral, and I'd be pleased. That's where force effects wound up in PF2 anyways.
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I don't think occult really 'switched definitions' between editions. PF2 Occult is the magic of mystery, esoteric knowledge and the unknown and is most strongly associated with the Spirit and Mind essences. That tracks with PF1 pretty well, when esoterica, spirits and mental power were the main themes of occult magic there too.
Kineticist was always a little bit of an odd-man out, being a planar elementalist in a book that dealt a lot with spirits and psychic imprints and raw mental power and stuff like that.
I agree with QuidEst though that it'd be a shame to see stuff like Aether go by the wayside, but maybe a Primal Kineticist could be an interesting way to explore the concept of primal energy and magic without being overtly druidic too.