Hello everyone
I need help, I am in a rush and well the Magus class is terribly written so very difficult to understand on short notice
The image I have is a Crocodile who eats a Sorcerer, transforms into a "Lizardfolk" and slowly turns into a Dragon from there. I see them in combat biting into enemies with their Shocking Grasp
I am really disappointed to learn that my NA are limited. Eldritch Scion makes my spells spontaneous to qualify for Dragon Disciple.
25 point buy, Level 10 Character
I would love to maintain Spellcasting with Favored Prestige Class & Prestigious Spellcaster.
How does Natural Spell Combat work?
Starting Stats I am thinking:
STR-18
DEX-14
CON-16
INT-10
WIS-8
CHA-15
How would you do it?
Natural spell combat lets you use one type of natural attack (e.g. bite), or a natural attack and a weapon with spell combat. Without it you're apparently limited to manufactured weapons with spell combat.
As an eldritch scion / dragon disciple you may not be using spell combat much. Spontaneous spellcasters need to use more than a standard action if they're adding metamagic to a spell, or else they have to take a feat (spontaneous metafocus) for each spell. Spell combat only works with standard action spells. Spellstrike still works for them; you may find it useful to just cast your intensified empowered shocking grasp without spell combat.
Purple Duck put out a series of supplements that converted all of the Core Rulebook PrCs and many of the official Paizo PrCs into 20-level base classes.
Here's their take on the Dragon Disciple.
If your DM allows it, that's what I would do.
Natural spell combat lets you use one type of natural attack (e.g. bite), or a natural attack and a weapon with spell combat. Without it you're apparently limited to manufactured weapons with spell combat.
Just to clarify: you CAN use your Claw attacks with Spell Combat WITHOUT taking Natural Spell Combat - they count as a "light or one handed weapon wielded in the other hand". You would likely only be able to use one Claw attack with Spell Combat though, unless you can grow a 3rd arm (one hand has to be "Free").
You'd need Natural Spell Combat for a Bite Attack though.
Since Natural Attacks don't get iteratives, and since you can't use all of them with Spell Combat, I'd probably focus on multi-touch spells (eg. Frostbite) rather than the standard Shocking Grasp Magus. Alternately you could focus on buffing spells and let your Claws and Bite do the talking when it comes to damage.
Let's say I have a melee weapon
I deliver Shocking Grasp through a bite apart of Spell combat
Then as part of a full attack action I hit them with my sword X amount of times.
Can I then Bite again or use a claw as a secondary attack?
Let's say I have a melee weapon
I deliver Shocking Grasp through a bite apart of Spell combat
Then as part of a full attack action I hit them with my sword X amount of times.
Can I then Bite again or use a claw as a secondary attack?
Yes, the free attack from the touch spell doesn't count toward your iteratives or your Natural Attacks for the round. You can also make more than one attack with your sword ic your BAB is high enough (eg. +6/+1). It's worth noting though, that if you attack with your sword then the all your Natural Attacks count as Secondary Natural Attacks (-5 to hit, 1/2 STR to damage) for that round.
If you're wielding a sword in one hand and a spell in the other then the claws don't give you any extra attacks, but the Bite would. The Claws might still be useful - if you're disarmed or if you have a multi-touch spell (eg. Frostbite) in the round AFTER Spell Combat.
I recommend reading THIS GUIDE if you're about to get into Magus for the first time. Natural Attacks have their own special rules, so you'll have to learn them, but I don't know a good guide for that - sorry.
No, you only get one bite in the round, and you would have already used it for the spellstrike. As for the claws... that is a questionable grey area that is leaning towards no as well... one of your claw attacks is already off the board due to wielding a weapon in that hand, the other is most likely considered occupied with the somatic component of your spell.
The only thing I think Firebug missed is how the claws work with Spell Combat. If you cast a spell with your left hand and attack with the claw on your right hand you CANNOT use the claw on your left hand to attack - even with Natural Spell Combat. That hand is busy casting a spell for the round, and cannot be used to attack.
So I see the problem with Natural Attacks on the Magus is that you would lose 1 attack around at the high levels correct?
1 Bite + 2 Claws would be Bite twice and claw once
But with a melee weapon
It would be 1 Spell Combat, and how ever many attacks BAB gives you which could be up to 3, so 4 in total.
Yup.
If you want to make the best use of Spellstrike you really want a high crit-range weapon as well (hence the classic scimitar wielding magus).
Another fairly strong option though is to use polymorph spells to turn into a monster and murder everything, and your build is already a monster, so it's not bad.
I'd focus on buffing spells, you still get the best out of Spell Combat (you can cast while attackong, so no setup required), and once your've cast your favourite 2-3 buffing spells you murderize the enemies with claws and teeth. You also could (as I've already said) use something like Frostbite to increase your damage once you're buffed up, as any round you don't use Spell Combat you get your full compliment of attacks.
Also while Natural Attacks don't get iteratives, getting 3 attacks at full BAB (Claw/Claw/Bite) is actually better than getting 4 attacks that get less accurate. Would you rather have +20/+20/+20 or +20/+15/+10/+5? The iteratives get more attacks but they're much pess likely to hit.
If I were you I'd ditch the sword and just focus on Natural Weapons. You can use spells like Force Hook Charge and Bladed Dash to get around the battlefield, throw out some group buffs WHILE fighting (Haste = best), and if you need a little more oomph you've got some damage spells as backup.
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I need help, I am in a rush and well the Magus class is terribly written so very difficult to understand on short notice
Now the catch is that Dragon Disciple is not very good. Sure, it gives you some numerical bonuses, but you lose out big time on class features, arcane pool enchantment, and spells. You can get a bite attack from a trait, already get breath weapon and wings from your bloodline, and frankly your spells are better than most of that anyway.
So go straight Magus/20, it's a very solid build. And I'd at least consider Aberrant bloodline (because you're an abomination, yes?) or Arcane bloodline because they're more effecive than Draconic. HTH!
Arcane bloodline is almost certainly the most powerful, but aberrant isn't bad either.
I think I agree with Kurald, you've already got Natural Attacks from your race, so Draconic isn't doing muc for you
For those suggesting that the OP change their build and bloodline... I feel the need to point out that the Dragon Disciple prC has some benefits to it that the OP might specifically be after...
1) their bite gets upgraded damage to 1-1/2x str and is now properly for a creature their size instead of two size categories smaller... So long as they are focusing on natural attacks and not using a manufactured weapon this can be a quite potent improvement.
2) ability boost is a hefty +4 Str and +2 Con... sure the character may already be strong as is, but given their concept... that extra boost could be a key aspect of their choice.
3) quicker bloodline progression... sort of... the prC grants earlier access to many of the Draconic Bloodline abilities through its class features, and the. Upgrades said bloodline abilities when your bloodline is of sufficient level to get the ability normally.
4) stronger natural weapons... Draconic bloodline, unlike most natural weapon granting bloodlines, actually does still benefit races that naturally have claws, as you progress the bloodline actually makes your claws stronger while active. Damage die increase at 7th and added energy damage at 11th.
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For those suggesting that the OP change their build and bloodline... I feel the need to point out that the Dragon Disciple prC has some benefits to it that the OP might specifically be after...
Those are good arguments for the draconic bloodline, which indeed is a flavorful choice; but the prestige class adds preciously little to that.
Sure, you'd get +2/+2 from added strength, but you lose out on +2/+2 from arcane pool, and you can't take the +2 from weapon spec any more, and you need to spend feats to keep your caster level intact. Oh, and you miss out on arcana like swift-action Haste.
Overall, the prestige class is not an improvement.
The image I have is a Crocodile who eats a Sorcerer, transforms into a "Lizardfolk" and slowly turns into a Dragon from there.
It's a fun idea, but why not just go with the bloodrager instead? You could still take dragon disciple and advance it's bloodline with the prestige class.
One bite per head. One claw per arm with claws. So one bite and 2 claws means one bite and 2 claws.
For example, a magus could select this arcana twice, choosing claw attacks and bite attacks. This would allow him to use a full-round action to make all of his claw attacks with his free hand and all of his bite attacks in addition to casting a spell. This arcana otherwise functions exactly like the spell combat class feature.
Well hey if the arcana says you can do it then I'd say you can. Good find.
I got to thinking after I posted last night... how many bites can a character make if they have a single bite natural weapon (ie, not a hydra). I'll probably start a new thread to not derail.
I guess 1 normally, +1 Haste, +1 Spell Cpmbat/Strike = 3?
If you can get more than that I'll be surprised.
EDIT: Well I just saw your other thread and I guess you can call me surprised =P
I'll leave it there to avoid derailing - as you said.
For those suggesting that the OP change their build and bloodline... I feel the need to point out that the Dragon Disciple prC has some benefits to it that the OP might specifically be after...Those are good arguments for the draconic bloodline, which indeed is a flavorful choice; but the prestige class adds preciously little to that.
@Minigiant: I won't say that one is better than the other, but it's worth looking at all your options. If you do go Draconic Bloodline and if you do go Dragon Disciple remember that you don't have to take all 10 levels of the prestige class, you can just take a few if they get you what you want (a 4 pevel dip is fairly common for the STR boost).
It's also worth considering what level your game will finish at: If you'll be finishing at level 10 then the benefits of different classes will be totally different to if you're going all the way to level 20.
You will all be happy to know that I am ditching both Magus and Dragon Disciple for
Crossblooded Bloodrager
The plan is to take Arcane and Abyssal. The Abyssal bloodline powers will come at level 12 and 20.
Level 16 I will use Form of the Dragon or Beast Shape (Allosaurus)
So my question is, should I stack Bloody Knuckle Rager onto the Archetype, so that I can pick up things like Feral Combat Training (Claws) and Dragon Ferocity?
I am also looking at Eldritch Heritage (Sorcerer: Orc or Abyssal) for even more Strength
I don't know ablut Bloody Knuckle Rager, but I would strongly suggest you do something to boost your Will Save. A 10th level Crossblooded Bloodrage is getting +1 to Will Saves from their class (+3 Base, -2 Archetype), compared to a normal Bloodrager who would be getting +5 from their class (+3 base, +2 Morale when Raging). This is also not usually a class that's known for high will saves.
You don't have to go all out (in fact you may even want to play someone weak-willed), but if you end up murdering your party the other players will probably be annoyed. I'd take Iron Will, keep my WIS to at least 12 and prioritise the Cloak of Resistance over other items (12 WIS, Iron Will and a +3 Cloak leaves you at +7 Will at level 10, which is only slightly bad).
I will say that I'm thoroughly enjoying playing a Bloodrager at the moment, and i hope you enjoy it too (although I also like the Magus, so whatever floats your boat).
I'd take Iron Will, keep my WIS to at least 12 and prioritise the Cloak of Resistance over other items (12 WIS, Iron Will and a +3 Cloak leaves you at +7 Will at level 10, which is only slightly bad).
Fortunately Arcane Bloodline gets Iron Will as a Bloodline Feat so that is at 6
Bloody-Knuckle Rowdy Crossblooded Bloodrager
Skeleton Outline:
Race: Lizardfolk
STR: 18
DEX: 14
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 13
CHA: 14
Traits: Indomitable Faith & ________
AI
4 - STR
8 - STR
12 - CHA
16 - STR
20 - STR
Feats:
1 (Level) - Weapon Focus (Claws)
1 (Class) - Improved Unarmed Strike
2 (Class) - *Retrained at 3: Dragon Style
3 (Level) - Feral Combat Training
5 (Level) - Skill Focus (Planes or Survival)
7 (Level) - Eldritch Heritage: (Claws or Touch of Rage)
9 (Level) - Stunning Fist
11 (Level) - Dragon Ferocity
13 (Level) - Improved Eldritch Heritage (Strength of the Beast/Abyss)
Bloodline Feats
6 - Iron Will
9 - Power Attack
12 - Toughness/Improved Initiative
Bloodline Powers
1 - Disruptive Bloodrage
4 - Arcane Bloodrage
8 - Greater Arcane Bloodrage
12 - Abyssal Bloodrage
16 - True Arcane Bloodrage
20 - ______________
Strength is the aim of the game, and should rapidly start approaching 50 between AI, Belt, Abyssal Bloodrage, Strength of the Abyss, Beast Shape IV
Then all those Claw attacks do 1.5x Str damage with Dragon Style/Ferocity.
I do lose 1 spell known per level but, the Arcane bloodline feats don't use up spells so it is somewhat mitigated
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There are 2 feats I'd try to add in there:
1. RAGING VITALITY. Firstly it gives you more HP while Raging (which is nice), but secondly it means that if you do get knocked unconcious you don't immediately die. As it stands at level 10 you're getting 20hp from Rage. If you're taken to -1hp you're instantly knocked unconcious, which means you end your rage, which means you lose your bonus hitpoints and end up at -21hp (dead). This is kind-of a feat tax for Barbarians/Bloodragers, but it also isn't bad, so definitely try to take it.
2. RAGING BRUTALITY. You can't take this till level 13, but when you get it it lets you add your CON to your damage rolls when needed. If you took Raging Vitality then your CON should be at least +6, so that's not a small amount. It also gets a bonus 50% for two-handed weapons, so it should work with Dragon Ferocity as well. It does cost rounds of rage, so you probably won't use it every round, but if you really need to take someone down quickly this is amazing.
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Since you're starting at level 10 anyway, the Steadfast Personality feat (and dropping your wisdom to 10) may be better than Iron Will.
Hedgehogs don't actually live in swamps; but when taking a familiar consider the Emissary archetype, which adds another layer of defense against mind control.
There are 2 feats I'd try to add in there:
1. RAGING VITALITY. Firstly it gives you more HP while Raging (which is nice), but secondly it means that if you do get knocked unconcious you don't immediately die. As it stands at level 10 you're getting 20hp from Rage. If you're taken to -1hp you're instantly knocked unconcious, which means you end your rage, which means you lose your bonus hitpoints and end up at -21hp (dead). This is kind-of a feat tax for Barbarians/Bloodragers, but it also isn't bad, so definitely try to take it.
2. RAGING BRUTALITY. You can't take this till level 13, but when you get it it lets you add your CON to your damage rolls when needed. If you took Raging Vitality then your CON should be at least +6, so that's not a small amount. It also gets a bonus 50% for two-handed weapons, so it should work with Dragon Ferocity as well. It does cost rounds of rage, so you probably won't use it every round, but if you really need to take someone down quickly this is amazing.
I have been trying to figure out a way beside switching to human to grab Raging Vitality. It is difficult when both feat starved feats belonging to one of two feat intensive chains.
If you don't care so much about Disruptive Bloodrage, consider trading it out for a Bloodline Familiar. Not specifically for the bloodline features, but for a Hedgehog familiar because it gives +2 will.
It could be your friend from the good ol' days in the swamp.
First, I did not know that was even an option so thank you for educating me. My DM has on occasion seperated the creature from the familiar bonus, I wonder.....because having that bird that cleans my teeth would be cool.
Since you're starting at level 10 anyway, the Steadfast Personality feat (and dropping your wisdom to 10) may be better than Iron Will.
Hedgehogs don't actually live in swamps; but when taking a familiar consider the Emissary archetype, which adds another layer of defense against mind control.
Steadfast Personality would work well, except I need the WIS for Stunning Fist unfortunately, plus, Iron Will is on my Bloodline Feat which alleviates the feat intensiveness of my level feats.
Emissary archetype is a good idea though so I will add that to my pool of things to play with, thanks.
It is worth noting for your new build, the wording on Eldritch Heritage will prevent you from taking the Abyssal sorcerer bloodline through it, so your choices listed on those levels would end up just being the Orc bloodline.
Since you're starting at level 10 anyway, the Steadfast Personality feat (and dropping your wisdom to 10) may be better than Iron Will.Steadfast Personality would work well, except I need the WIS for Stunning Fist unfortunately, plus, Iron Will is on my Bloodline Feat which alleviates the feat intensiveness of my level feats.
If you'd consider a dip, one level of SCALED FIST MONK gives you Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist and your choice of bonus feat (including Dragon Style). It also lets you use your CHA modifier for Stunning Fist instead of your WIS modifier (You can ignore the unarmoured benefits of Monk, you're just here for the bonus feats).
It can also be taken as a chained or unchained archetype, meaning you can either get {+0 BAB, +2/+2/+2 saves} or {+1 BAB, +2/+2/+0 saves}.
I'm also of the opinion that you'll probably want Steadfast Personality AND Iron Will.
It is worth noting for your new build, the wording on Eldritch Heritage will prevent you from taking the Abyssal sorcerer bloodline through it, so your choices listed on those levels would end up just being the Orc bloodline.
Does it? I am reading Sorcerer Bloodline which I do not have
Update time:
Class: Crossblooded (Arcane&Destined) Bloody-Knuckle Rowdy Rager
Traits: Fate's Favored & ________
Feats:
1 (Level) - Skill Focus (Planes)
1 (Class) - Improved Unarmed Strike
2 (Class) - *Retrained at 3: Dragon Style
3 (Level) - Eldritch Heritage (Abyssal: Claws)
5 (Level) - Raging Vitality
7 (Level) - Feral Combat Training
9 (Level) - Stunning Fist
11 (Level) - Dragon Ferocity
13 (Level) - Improved Eldritch Heritage (Strength of the Abyss)
15 (Level) - Raging Brutality
Bloodline Feats
6 - Weapon Focus (Claws)
9 - Iron Will
12 - Power Attack
15 - Improved Initiative
Bloodline Powers
1 - Destined Strike
4 - Arcane Bloodrage
8 - Fated Bloodrager
12 - Greater Arcane Bloodrage
16 - True Arcane Bloodrage
20 - Victory or Death