This is very interesting. It lets you know right up front that in most cases you are not gonna save money crafting an item over buying it unless you take a ton of downtime unless it's something you can't get any other way. Honestly I think it's cheaper to just have an item commissioned and just work the $ off in most cases. And these #'s don't include the cost of the formula even.
Thank you for sharing!! Well done!
This is nifty and I wanna bump this because more people should see it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This is very interesting. It lets you know right up front that in most cases you are not gonna save money crafting an item over buying it unless you take a ton of downtime unless it's something you can't get any other way.The ONLY way Crafting is going to save you money, once you fully understand the RAW, is
1) if the party is stuck in a backwater town, meaning the settlement level is lower than your own level, meaning that the tasks available for Earn Income are significantly lower in level. As a crafter, you can Craft at your own level, not the settlement's level.
2) you have considerable downtime available (and again, no way of simply travelling to a metropolis that can cater to heroes of your level)and even then
3) you don't actually make any money. All you can do is earn more money relative to your friends in the party. That is, all savings depend on you earning money appropriate for your level while your friends have to spend time on low-level tasks, earning less money.That is, any money made on Crafting relies on the misfortune of your fellow party members. (If that sounds harsh, you just haven't fully absorbed the RAW effects of the official rules. Yes, I mean that's literally how the rules work!)
But I never think the Craft as a way to save money. Is more a way to personalize what you have. (but u still have to know the formulas)
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The intent of the rule is to avoid the problem of excess wealth caused by crafting, and since getting access to crafting is easier in P2 it would have been a bigger problem.
You're not supposed to make money crafting. Period. End of statement. Crafting allows you go have agency over what gear you have, instead of being passive and hoping the shop in town has what you want. It's the same idea behind weapon and armor runes or the elimination of small equipment. It's about needing to subsume your character build to the random equipment drops.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Talk about ignoring the specific downsides of Crafting in my post.
In fact, you come across as repeating a mantra, ignoring both my points and how the RAW actually works.
Good for you.
I'm not ignoring your downsides, I'm saying that your premise is false. Crafting isn't supposed to make you money. RAW is that it's not about making money. It's converting your money on a 1 to 1 ratio into gear. If it's not designed to make you money then it doesn't matter that it is inefficient at making money. This was specifically designed to reduce or eliminate the problem of a PC using magic item crafting to double their wealth. The amount of downtime you have is of course going to limit your ability to craft, but won't that be a problem in any crafting system?
I didn't attack you, I just disagreed with your comment. I would hope you would extend the same courtesy to me.
Isnt it actually much harder to craft in this edition due to needing the formula for the item you want?
Yes and no. There are rules for reverse engineering a formula from an item. This isn't super helpful for say a shield or sword, but it's great for consumables like academical items or potions. There is also the level 7 Inventor feat that allows you to craft a formula.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's a very limited style of argumentation. You're not the first one to refuse to discuss the system in any other way than the most limited: "it is meant to do this and it does it, so nobody gets to complain".
With no analysis or comment on how well it does these things, if they're intuitive or fun. Why does it do these things? Should it do these things? Do you like doing these things? Not discussing it with an open mind is just reductive and uninteresting.
If you really wish to take a bullet for the system please explain why it needs to allow you to save on cost if it isn't supposed to make you money. Please explain why things must take so long; meaning that your crafting becomes vulnerable to adventure specifics.
In short: Please consider alternatives to the given implementation, and argue why the chosen one for RAW was a good one. Feel free to use my suggested variant as contrast. What about my system isn't good, or shouldn't be allowed? What does the RAW do better and why?
Disagreeing with the premise of your argument is not “taking a bullet for the system.” Nor is it the responsibility of a poster in this thread to speak to all of your issues with crafting in a thread created by a third party that is about a tool they created.
Since it is your issue with crafting that you feel must be addressed, please demonstrate where the RAW indicates that crafting is designed to be a source of income.
My group had a similar discussion. Granted this is a PFS group so their are more guidelines to work with. Someone brought up using crafting to "earn" more money than earn income. I think they misunderstood how crafting worked. The problems with using crafting to earn income are:
* You first spend 4 days to get get started. Your not earning income during this time.
* On a crit fail you lose money (unlike earn income which just earns 0)
* On a fail earn income still earns a little.
* You have to buy the formula or reverse engineer it. The first costs money, the second costs time (not earning income).
* There is a feat tax for most classes.
Eventually this led to a discussion on the merits of earn income, experienced smuggler, and the Horizon Hunter boon (earn income at your level). For those interested I made a spreadsheet here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DsRZK6Qalft6WIEp-hGdBYc6TKJIHlWImkF SVlzcrHU/edit?usp=sharing
It's not pretty but it got my point across. One of the interesting things we learned is that masterwork tools never pay for themselves. Again this is PFS so you cap out at level 11. From levels 1-11 the difference between -2, -1, and 0 level tasks ends up earning about 110 more gold. Great for Horizon hunters but probably not worth the feat for Experienced Smugglers.
In a home brew game downtime has way to many variables so you will have to decide for yourself. You may get years of downtime. In PFS you end up getting 24 days every level, or 50% more if you don't have a school.
For those interested I made a spreadsheet here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DsRZK6Qalft6WIEp-hGdBYc6TKJIHlWImkF SVlzcrHU/edit?usp=sharing
You haven't correctly shared the file.
It's a very limited style of argumentation. You're not the first one to refuse to discuss the system in any other way than the most limited: "it is meant to do this and it does it, so nobody gets to complain".
With no analysis or comment on how well it does these things, if they're intuitive or fun. Why does it do these things? Should it do these things? Do you like doing these things? Not discussing it with an open mind is just reductive and uninteresting.
If you really wish to take a bullet for the system please explain why it needs to allow you to save on cost if it isn't supposed to make you money. Please explain why things must take so long; meaning that your crafting becomes vulnerable to adventure specifics.
In short: Please consider alternatives to the given implementation, and argue why the chosen one for RAW was a good one. Feel free to use my suggested variant as contrast. What about my system isn't good, or shouldn't be allowed? What does the RAW do better and why?
Crafting rules literally say "For each additional day you spend, reduce the value of the materials you need to expend to complete the item. This amount is determined using Table 4–2: Income Earned (page 236)." Crafting is just another way to "earn income." You literally use the same table.
The question of "IF" or "How well" isn't relevant. You made a statement that crafting is inefficient at making money, I responded that it's not supposed to make money, so the inefficiency is the wrong framing. I don't have to explain anything. Mine was a statement as to what the rules say not a value statement about the design choice. If you think crafting isn't fun, that's fine. Maybe your alternate system is really great. However, no matter how awesome you new system is, it does not change the rules in the book.
Your alternate system is also off topic, as the OP is about how the rules work, not how they suck or how they should have been written.
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Zapp, this is a thread devoted to helping people use the rules as written as it relates to the use of a tool to help do the math for people. Your desire to discuss the flaws of the rules isn't at all appropriate here, in fact, they're probably harmful given how this topic exists to talk about, give feedback for, and promote the existence of a tool built using the RAW itself.
This isn't the place to have that conversation, perhaps create a new Homebrew thread for that discussion.
I was going to write a long response post, but I deleted it. Please leave the personal attacks aside and just discuss the topic at hand.
After seeing Basics4Gamers' video on crafting and reading some interesting discussion about "break even" points with crafting I decided to whip up an interactive crafting calculator:
https://vietthe.dev/pf2e/crafting_calc/
It allows for comparisons between crafting and using Earn Income to just buy the item. Break even point mostly boils down to the difference between character level and task level (as dictated by the character level and settlement level).
The calculator will dynamically change the URL to record the current state of the calculator so you can share your work. For example, here's the side bar crafting example on CRB page 245: https://vietthe.dev/pf2e/crafting_calc/index.html#WzIsNSwyLDEzLDQsNjUwMCwwL GZhbHNlLGZhbHNlLHRydWUsMSwzLHRydWUsInN0cmlraW5nIl0=. In this example the row for day 14 matches the CRB when you add the "Spent" and "Balance" columns.
If there are any mistakes just let me know.
Thanks for sharing this.
Zapp has posted a link to his alternate rules. Can we move the discussion of Zapp's behavior there?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
After seeing Basics4Gamers' video on crafting and reading some interesting discussion about "break even" points with crafting I decided to whip up an interactive crafting calculator:
https://vietthe.dev/pf2e/crafting_calc/
It allows for comparisons between crafting and using Earn Income to just buy the item. Break even point mostly boils down to the difference between character level and task level (as dictated by the character level and settlement level).
The calculator will dynamically change the URL to record the current state of the calculator so you can share your work. For example, here's the side bar crafting example on CRB page 245: https://vietthe.dev/pf2e/crafting_calc/index.html#WzIsNSwyLDEzLDQsNjUwMCwwL GZhbHNlLGZhbHNlLHRydWUsMSwzLHRydWUsInN0cmlraW5nIl0=. In this example the row for day 14 matches the CRB when you add the "Spent" and "Balance" columns.
If there are any mistakes just let me know.
Delicious20- This is a really cool app you put together, thank you! Even if you're not interested in the "loss" from not earning income, it at least helps you to figure out the benefit of crafting for one more day or just paying off the item.
This... seven... nine... twelve step process is why I completely hand wave crafting rules. This page is totally amazing though and definitely makes the rules clearer, especially the end table chart; because I read the crafting rules about 4 times before slamming the book shut and needing to take an aspirin.