Dumb wizardly fun?

[Corwin Icewolf]

I posted the following in a "are casters underpowered" threads that is currently ongoing in response to people arguing over whether power level is actually the problem. Addendums are in bold.

Corwin Icewolf wrote:

I can think of one thing that would help. And it could at least potentially be done without making the wizard more powerful.

The wizard really doesn't have any interesting dumb wizardly things to do during downtime since pretty much all spells are focused on being balanced for adventures, I mean yeah you can craft scrolls, but that's your job, not something extra.

Druids can cast tree shape and sleep as trees instead of going to the inn starting at level 3. Wild druids can turn into animals and spend hours in animal form as long as they pick up form control at level 4. possibly without even changing back, I can't find anything that says you can't refocus while a focus spell's still in effect.

I want spells with downtime role playing potential, too, but prestidigitation doesn't work for that anymore because it cleans and Cooks more slowly than actually cooking and cleaning and Tires you out much faster, unseen servant doesn't last long enough for this, since it's sustained it lasts ten minutes at most, and animated objects are too expensive to use for this. even an animated broom costs 15 gold, and you'll probably end up making more powerful ones in the process of animating your cleaning crew

I mean, you get resplendent mansion at level 17, but that's a long time to wait to actually feel like a wizard when you're not out on adventures.

My post went largely unresponded to, ones relating to this usually do it seems like, though enough people favorited it that I felt like people might want to talk about it at least.

I guess I'd just like to be able to do this sort of thing in addition to blowing up enemies, it doesn't have to be focused on, just possible. Especially since we know from PFS scenarios that wizards do such things in Golarion.

Are there any spells on the arcane list that can still be used in such ways? Would you want to see such spells added, even if as rituals?

[NemoNoName]

I would want to. But I agree with you, all of these things are not provided for right now. And I don't see a book coming that will give us much of that either.

[Unicore]

It will come through ritual magic, not traditional spell slots. We will see it in the APG.

[Kios]

I'm curious: where does it say it takes longer to cook or clean with Prestidigitation? I've seen people say this a couple of times, but I can't seem to find it in the rules.

A couple of pounds of food should be plenty for a meal and should only take 10 seconds to cook and another 10 to spice based on the Prestidigitation description.

Likewise, it should only take one minute to fully clean light armor or two minutes to fully clean any medium based on their bulk. I wish I could clean my clothes that fast. You could also color the same armors however you'd like in the same amount of time.

Am I missing something?

[ErichAD]

The only difference I see between the two is one lasts for an hour, and the other requires an action every turn and can only last the default sustain duration(10 turns was it?). That does mean that PF2's prestidigitation isn't a "fire and forget" luxury spell that you can keep active at all times like the PF1 version.

I don't know how PF2's prestidigitation is meant to make individual tasks take longer though.

[Kios]

The default sustain duration is 10 minutes (100 rounds). That is, if you sustain a single casting of the spell for 10 minutes, the spell ends and you become fatigued.

However, each object you cast the spell on is a separate casting. Because of the action economy, you can sustain and recast on a separate object on the same turn.

The only way I can see to fatigue yourself with Prestidigitation is to try to clean or color objects that have 10 or more bulk or to lift an object for over 10 minutes straight.

[ErichAD]

I see. So it takes longer to do things since you're recasting the spell for every task.

[Garretmander]

ErichAD wrote:

I see. So it takes longer to do things since you're recasting the spell for every task.

I don't know that it does.

Any 'task' you do with either version is going to take the same amount of time, just PF1's definition of how much effort & concentration you need to put into the spell was more nebulous

[Corwin Icewolf]

Kios wrote:

I'm curious: where does it say it takes longer to cook or clean with Prestidigitation? I've seen people say this a couple of times, but I can't seem to find it in the rules.

A couple of pounds of food should be plenty for a meal and should only take 10 seconds to cook and another 10 to spice based on the Prestidigitation description.

Likewise, it should only take one minute to fully clean light armor or two minutes to fully clean any medium based on their bulk. I wish I could clean my clothes that fast. You could also color the same armors however you'd like in the same amount of time.

Am I missing something?

I was thinking mostly in terms of how long it would take to clean a room actually, without fully realizing it no longer even has an area as a target. Wait, can prestidigitation even still clean rooms then? Egh... Now I'm confused.

I may also be misunderstanding bulk now that you mention it...

Quote:

However, each object you cast the spell on is a separate casting. Because of the action economy, you can sustain and recast on a separate object on the same turn.

I... also did not realize that.

[Corwin Icewolf]

No no, Okay, I remember what I was referring to now. Pf2 prestidigitation is definitely much slower at cleaning than pf1 prestidigitation.

pf2 prestidigitation:

Quote:

Tidy Color, clean, or soil an object of light Bulk or less. You can affect an object of 1 Bulk with 10 rounds of concentration, and a larger object a 1 minute per Bulk.

Pf1 prestidigitation:

Quote:

It can color, clean, or soil items in a 1-foot cube each round.

So a 1 foot cube is likely to be at least one bulk, probably more, but it largely depends on the material, a one foot cube of solid iron, for instance, is probably somewhere between 3 and 7 bulk, since bulk takes into account volume in addition to weight. So, pf1 prestidigitation cleans a solid cube of iron in 1 round, whereas pf2 prestidigitation cleans a solid cube of iron in 3-7 minutes.

Now granted, whether pf2's version is actually slower than mundane cleaning depends on what exactly you're cleaning off it. But as we're talking about using magic for every day chores here, prestidigitation's pretty slow in all honesty, maybe not as slow as I thought.

And having broken it down like that, I now realize there's also this anomaly where prestidigitation cleans heavier things more slowly even if they're smaller, which is pretty weird.

[ErichAD]

Oh, that's pretty messed up. It's not so much a problem with the spell as it is another amazing feature of the bulk mechanic. huzzah

It is pretty hard to make a comparison with PF1 prestidigitation since no actions beyond the casting are specified, and the comparison changes drastically depending on what sort of action you require for new tasks if any.

[Kios]

I'm curious how it would work for a room, too.

With rooms, if you are just cleaning surfaces, would you have to consider the weight of the wall or how much the surface area is compared to other items when determining Bulk?

If you find a room that's less than 60 Bulk, could you count it as one item to paint it?

[Squiggit]

Changes like that really confuse me. Was anyone complaining about people using prestidigitation to clean things?

Neat, flavorful but low impact effects like that are a nice way to make magic feel magical without having to worry about power budgets. It seems, I dunno, almost spiteful to be worried about nerfing stuff like that.

[Ezekieru]

They mentioned in the APG Retrospective that we're getting a location-based Unseen Servant spell, so it's likely we're getting new spells to cover the dumb wizardly fun. At least, I hope so, between APG and Lost Omens Gods & Magic.

[Corwin Icewolf]

Squiggit wrote:

Changes like that really confuse me. Was anyone complaining about people using prestidigitation to clean things?

Neat, flavorful but low impact effects like that are a nice way to make magic feel magical without having to worry about power budgets. It seems, I dunno, almost spiteful to be worried about nerfing stuff like that.

I've heard complaints about prestidigitation before, but the only time I've heard a complaint about cleaning with it was in regards to Green slime, which after the first round can only be removed by dealing cold or fire damage to it. And prestidigitation clearly says it can't do damage. So you can only clean green slime on the round that you'd be able to just scrape it off anyway.

Actually here's another question: it targets 1 object now, so is a person's body considered an object while they're alive or do mages all need to find a new way to do their make up(assuming they wear such) and dye their hair?

Ezekieru wrote:

They mentioned in the APG Retrospective that we're getting a location-based Unseen Servant spell, so it's likely we're getting new spells to cover the dumb wizardly fun. At least, I hope so, between APG and Lost Omens Gods & Magic.

Awesome, thanks for mentioning that. I haven't seen it. Is it a video or a blog entry?

[Temperans]

It was on the recent video where they talked about the APG playtest.

Also I 'm having a hard time seeing why the effects of prestidigitation only last while you concentrate.

I kind of get the change to just objects, and the change to bulk also makes kind of sense (ignoring the fact it also uses pounds), but the fact its sustain its trowing me for a loop.

[Unicore]

It has to do with a fundamental change to the way magic works in the world. The developers did say that a longer duration unseen servant was on its way, but it will be a ritual, not a traditional spell. Animating a broom to mop for you, Fantasia style, will probably be moved to ritual magic, along with all the other longer term magical effects. Spell slot magic is much more about immediate and temporary changes. I wish they would have been a little more orderly and consistent about that, bit It does seem like where the general push has been.

[Megistone]

Corwin Icewolf wrote:

Actually here's another question: it targets 1 object now, so is a person's body considered an object while they're alive or do mages all need to find a new way to do their make up(assuming they wear such) and dye their hair?

I'm pretty sure that you can find someone who rules that you have to cast the spell once for each single hair, and then blames the system for that.