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I don't know about specific titles, but I wouldn't be surprised to see books that have the following things in them:
Mythic Tier Support
The Magus Class, probably after a Playtest.
The Kitsune Ancestry
Firearm Rules, probably after a Playtest.
Those are the four things that I've seen the most demand for, after what's already been confirmed. Also Genie-kin sooner rather than later, because they're listed in the Character Guide alongside all the soon to be released universal heritages from the APG.
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Well part of reason why they WEREN'T default is that there isn't enough 1-20 level content :p Hard to play until level 20 when majority of published campaigns don't go there.
There is also that new format of APs in 2e means its more likely for PCs to actually get to level 20 because 1) game balance seems to be better than in 1e 2) game speed is faster, so leveling up there takes faster 3) game doesn't get as hard to remember everything you can do now.
There is also that its kinda hard to say how many groups get inevitable dissolved by life and which don't. At least online groups have easier time running consistently for years :p
All of that, plus one of the things I've found is that the learning curve of PF2 meets the arc in difficulty of managing a higher level character really nicely. My home group is getting ready to wrap up book 6 of Age of Ashes next month and combat encounters have pretty consistently been about 45 minutes long across the entire length of play. That's way different than PF1 where the encounters tended to last about an hour through levels 1-10 and then stretched towards an hour and a half to two hours in levels 11-20, even though combats were actually lasting for fewer rounds as we leveled up. I've played in a high level PF1 session that lasted 2 hours IRL and about 1.5 rounds in game, and I haven't had a similar experience yet in PF2.
So I think it's kind of exciting to see the game moving away from APS that end around levels 12-16 and towards 1-20 becoming a standard length (though I'd like to see some 3-parters that can link together like Starfinder has done).
I'm late to the party, but I would be rather surprised if a 2E Beginner Box doesn't make it out in 2020.I wouldn't, they made it quite clear that they didn't think it was needed in august/September of last year.
So I've heard this a few times...are they on record as saying this? I can't see how they could get something like that so wrong.
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So I've heard this a few times...are they on record as saying this? I can't see how they could get something like that so wrong.I'm late to the party, but I would be rather surprised if a 2E Beginner Box doesn't make it out in 2020.I wouldn't, they made it quite clear that they didn't think it was needed in august/September of last year.
The Beginner's Box was a stripped down version of P1's rules.
P2's rules are very streamlined, what would there be to strip down?
I don't know about specific titles, but I wouldn't be surprised to see books that have the following things in them:
Mythic Tier Support
The Magus Class, probably after a Playtest.
The Kitsune Ancestry
Firearm Rules, probably after a Playtest.Those are the four things that I've seen the most demand for, after what's already been confirmed. Also Genie-kin sooner rather than later, because they're listed in the Character Guide alongside all the soon to be released universal heritages from the APG.
Side note, I'm hoping that the titles and contents aren't just rehashes of 1e stuff. I don't know that I have a particular reason, other than that it just kind of feels like they're redoing stuff to release a second time?
I don't mind crossover of familiar gods, archetypes, classes, whatever. But literally calling stuff "Ultimate x" or "x Adventures" again just doesn't sit that great with me. I'm not a 1e participant, though, so maybe for everyone else it's happy nostalgic titles.
Honestly it's a conversation I've been wondering if anyone wanted to have these days. How much of what we will see will be "1e stuff but for 2e!" or how much will be "this is its own edition and we'll do it differently since we get a second shot at it"?
I don't think you're going to see Rise of the Runelords or Ultimate Combat or Ultimate Magic re-done for second edition, if that's what you're worried about. OTOH the iconic classes are still iconic classes, so we probably will see at least some of the original 41 base and 100+ prestige classes, quite possibly, in particular considering the prestige classes, as archetypes.
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What makes you think that the rules need to be overly stripped down? The only thing that I would strip down rules wise for a Beginner box like product would be character creation and to be honest I would use something like what 5e had, one solid decent length adventure (1-5) and 5 pregenerated character sheets cleric, fighter, ranger, rogue, wizard. These characters would have "choose option a), choose option b)" at each level of choice with advice as to what numbers to change on the sheets and simple easy to understand/read sheets bespoke to them.
The adventure its self would be a VERY simple and easy to understand adventure written to allow the GM to only have to read it one chapter at a time to run and be specifically designed to make the learning process of how to be a GM easier with sidebars and full rules references called out with each teaching element and minimal spoken text box waffle.
The goal would be to release a solid entry product that is less imposing than a 650 page behemoth core rule book and give a gentler on ramp for people who don't know how to GM.
So yes, this is what I think PF2e needs from a Beginner Box and who the BB should be primarily directed towards. Not people like me who learn systems as a hobby and have already read the CRB cover to cover nearly three times, but people who are either new to the hobby or new to more complex rule intensive games.
Are they? Do they have to be?
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Uh yes, the P1 Beginner Box contains:
•1 fancy box
•A 64-page Hero's Handbook, detailing character creation, spells, equipment, and general rules for playing the game
•A 96-page Game Master's Guide packed with adventure, monsters, magic treasures, and advice on how to create and narrate tales all your own
•A 16-page Transition Guide to bring your hero to the full Pathfinder Roleplaying Game!
•A complete set of 7 polyhedral dice
•More than 80 full-color pawns depicting diverse heroes and monsters
•Four pregenerated character sheets to throw you right into the action
•Four blank character sheets to record the abilities of your custom-made hero
•A durable, resuable, double-sided Flip-Mat play surface that works with any kind of marker
The Starfinder Beginner Box contains:
•1 fancy Box
•A 96-page Heroes' Handbook, detailing character creation and general rules for playing the game, plus a short solo adventure
•A 96-page Game Master's Guide containing an adventure, alien adversaries, and advice on how to create your own science fantasy tales
•A complete set of seven polyhedral dice
•More than 80 full-color pawns depicting diverse heroes and aliens
•24 plastic pawn bases
•Six pregenerated character sheets to throw you right into the action
•Six blank character sheets to record the abilities of your custom-made hero
•Six player aid cards for quick rules references
•A durable, reusable, double-sided Flip-Mat play surface that works with any kind of marker
And PF1e was a very different game to PF2e. Just because they did something one way for one edition doesn't mean it has to be the same in another edition.
I again point to 5e which switched it up and had a VERY successful and much praised beginner box.
Things cnange and are adapted to the purpose. A beginners box serves the purpose of being a relatively easy introduction to a system, how it does that is up to design.
Come with some dice, small rulebooks with only the relevant info for play. Maybe a flipmat and some tokens.
The latter you mention is a Beginner's Box, aka a whole kit.
Streamlined rules were just one part, but a notable part.
Yes... I am talking about a beginner box... that is the discussion point.
Simplified core rules are not an intrinsic part of that experience or limited to the way it was handled with PF1e.
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The latter you mention is a Beginner's Box, aka a whole kit.
Streamlined rules were just one part, but a notable part.
Yes... I am talking about a beginner box... that is the discussion point.
Simplified core rules are not an intrinsic part of that experience or limited to the way it was handled with PF1e.
Except they were for the two instances of it, for P1 and Starfinder.
Asking for a starter Adventure Kit is different than asking for the Beginner's Box.
In that case the only obstruction is price, which is why they're hesitant to do one/won't do one. The two Beginner Boxes they have are very underpriced as is.
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I actually DON'T believe that the designers, staff, and marketers for Paizo thought that a Beginner Box for Pathfinder 2e was unnecessary. They simply didn't have time to get one prepared and out the door with the Core Rule Book launch, at least not at the quality level people would expect.
For all its accomplishments and the fact that it is still growing, Paizo remains a small company with limited time and resources. They can only do so much in a set period of time. Over a thousand pages of rules and adventure for the August launch? That pretty much tapped them out.
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I actually DON'T believe that the designers, staff, and marketers for Paizo thought that a Beginner Box for Pathfinder 2e was unnecessary. They simply didn't have time to get one prepared and out the door with the Core Rule Book launch, at least not at the quality level people would expect.
For all its accomplishments and the fact that it is still growing, Paizo remains a small company with limited time and resources. They can only do so much in a set period of time. Over a thousand pages of rules and adventure for the August launch? That pretty much tapped them out.
If I remember correctly, Paizo even said back during the Playtest streams that releasing a Beginner's Box at launch was never a goal because the designers first wanted to get feedback, so that they know what newcomers are struggling with, so that they can tailor the experience better to the beginner's needs.
The latter you mention is a Beginner's Box, aka a whole kit.
Streamlined rules were just one part, but a notable part.
Yes... I am talking about a beginner box... that is the discussion point.
Simplified core rules are not an intrinsic part of that experience or limited to the way it was handled with PF1e.
Well, unless you want to package a Core Rulebook in your box, you'll have to include some sort of stripped down or simplified rules, won't you?
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Well, unless you want to package a Core Rulebook in your box, you'll have to include some sort of stripped down or simplified rules, won't you?
Not really, when talking about simplified rules I am referencing how pf1e handled it (as that is the context for it being brought up). Which was to remove complexity and change how certain elements of the gsme functioned to make it easier to learn.
If a rule book included only the content thst was relevant to the game however while that is technically a simplified ruleset it isn't changing rules to do so.
E.g. if the adventure doesn't make use of flying rules and the premade characters have no access to flight abilities then not having those rules/actions in the book makes sense.
Same with large magical item sections, lost omens sections, other deities and so forth. Feats and skill feats doj't need to be included if they are on the pregens nor do character creation rules other than a direction to the crb.
*waits patiently for the 'once Paizo gets PF2 Beginner Box out, it should consider publishing a parallel line of Beginner PF2 books and access' tangent*
I will bite, another book the devs have said has minimal value in PF2e that I think could be quite valuable would be a book like the PF1e strategy guide.
Outside of that and a beginner box I don't think there would be much value in a wider line of content though.
I dislike teaching PF1e to players in general (I am not a handwaver and like people to know what rules are doing what/why), but the strategy guide makes it a notion I will actually consider when it comes to non gaming aficionados.
Obviously a yearly Bestiary.
Not sure how many NPCs the GMG will have, but I can't have too many NPC stat blocks at my fingertips.
I'm digging getting all the core world campaign books. I'd love another Darklands guide.
I know they don't want to just completely rehash all the old edition books into new edition books. But I loved the classic series (Classic Horrors Revisited, etc). All the descriptive material is still 100% good. Just updated stat blocks and variant monster abilities. So I don't have to do it myself =P
Even tho I love physical books, I would even subscribe to an affordable PDF mini-series of small books focusing on different creatures every other month or so. Like a 12 to 15 page PDF on drow, vampires, kobolds. That sort of thing.
I guess I'm saying- please think of more ways to take my money. Thanks.
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I think I can hazard a statement that the PF1 Strategy Guide was the single worst selling PF1 hardcover, ever.
In addition to being obsolete on day one, it really helped no one - it failed to convey some core non-obvious harsh realities of the ruleset (Monks and Rogues suck, multiclassing is mostly an exercise in futility, a golf bag of CLW wands is your best friend).
I think I can hazard a statement that the PF1 Strategy Guide was the single worst selling PF1 hardcover, ever.
In addition to being obsolete on day one, it really helped no one - it failed to convey some core non-obvious harsh realities of the ruleset (Monks and Rogues suck, multiclassing is mostly an exercise in futility, a golf bag of CLW wands is your best friend).
I agree that it was flawed and probably didn't sell well (a combination of a lot of elements though, not just its quality)
But as an introduction for someone with no knowledge of the system going in it was a good CRB supplement imo.
With a less imbalanced system that doesn't suffer from "death of a thousand bespoke rules" and being released along side a good teaching aid (ala 5e style beginner box) then I could see it being very useful.
I certainly wouldm't call it strategy guide and nor would it be aimed towards players directly, but through the vector of a GM.
So I've heard this a few times...are they on record as saying this? I can't see how they could get something like that so wrong.I'm late to the party, but I would be rather surprised if a 2E Beginner Box doesn't make it out in 2020.I wouldn't, they made it quite clear that they didn't think it was needed in august/September of last year.The Beginner's Box was a stripped down version of P1's rules.
P2's rules are very streamlined, what would there be to strip down?
Levels 7+? All the spells above level 3? The book is over 600 pages, for heaven's sake.
*waits patiently for the 'once Paizo gets PF2 Beginner Box out, it should consider publishing a parallel line of Beginner PF2 books and access' tangent*
As much as I might personally like something like that, it seems clear that it isn't' commercially viable.
So..still not seeing anything were Paizo said they weren't interested in a Beginner Box, so I'm going to assume they didn't say that, because I don't believe Paizo is that foolish.
Waiting to see where people have trouble, though? That makes sense.
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I think I can hazard a statement that the PF1 Strategy Guide was the single worst selling PF1 hardcover, ever.
In addition to being obsolete on day one, it really helped no one - it failed to convey some core non-obvious harsh realities of the ruleset (Monks and Rogues suck, multiclassing is mostly an exercise in futility, a golf bag of CLW wands is your best friend).
I agree that it was flawed and probably didn't sell well (a combination of a lot of elements though, not just its quality)
But as an introduction for someone with no knowledge of the system going in it was a good CRB supplement imo.
With a less imbalanced system that doesn't suffer from "death of a thousand bespoke rules" and being released along side a good teaching aid (ala 5e style beginner box) then I could see it being very useful.
I certainly wouldm't call it strategy guide and nor would it be aimed towards players directly, but through the vector of a GM.
If your game warrants a guide to help people understand it, you're doing something horribly wrong. Of course, Paizo kind of didn't have a choice the first time round.
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*waits patiently for the 'once Paizo gets PF2 Beginner Box out, it should consider publishing a parallel line of Beginner PF2 books and access' tangent*
I can see "My First Minmaxing Guide" being top Amazon seller... (important chapter: "What to do when my friends start hating me?") /s
I think I can hazard a statement that the PF1 Strategy Guide was the single worst selling PF1 hardcover, ever.
In addition to being obsolete on day one, it really helped no one - it failed to convey some core non-obvious harsh realities of the ruleset (Monks and Rogues suck, multiclassing is mostly an exercise in futility, a golf bag of CLW wands is your best friend).
I actually like that book but I can't say I use it often I occasionally pass it off to a new player to help them out but it seemed limited since it only had core options in it. I would of liked to of seen the last book published fpr PF1 to of been a strategy guide taking into consideration all the books and giving page numbers and book references. But That would of been one heck of an undertaking. Might as well just stick with the internet guides at that point.
I had a friend who was a new player to PF1. He found the strategy guide invaluable.
I have yet to figure out why people say PF1 rogues weren't good.
I don't know what games people played in that they were able to go into shops and buy loads of any type of wand they wanted, like a magic walmart.
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I had a friend who was a new player to PF1. He found the strategy guide invaluable.
I have yet to figure out why people say PF1 rogues weren't good.
I don't know what games people played in that they were able to go into shops and buy loads of any type of wand they wanted, like a magic walmart.
Core Rogues? Crappy accuracy due to mid BAB, main combat ability situational and denied by things as simple as concealment of any sort, supposedly fantastic big bag of skill points invalidated by abundance and power level of magic and the "skills can only achieve realistic real-world human limits" paradigm.
Unchained Rogues are a bit better, but of course, that didn't make it into the Strategy Guide.
Magic Walmart is the default of 3.5 D&D, so it's been 19 years of people buying and crafting whatever they want. Heck, the PF1 Gamemastery Guide flat out says that you have a 70% chance of buying any item that's within price limits of given settlement. And you pretty much need to have it that way, because the underlaying math of the game assumes that you're using the Big Six, so denying access to it is flat out gimping people for no benefit. Doubly so if any of them is a Rogue :)
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Books I hope to see:
Adventurer's Armory - Big big of gear, equipment, magic items, and new class Artificer (great at crafting, can magically repair damage to armor and weapons, and can temporarily imbue armor and weapons with runes).
Occult/Horror Book - Has 3 of the Occult Classes and 2-3 Horror Classes. For horror themed classes I am thinking Inquisitor, Slayer, and Shifter? And of course additional player themed stuff similar to advanced Class Guide.
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I had a friend who was a new player to PF1. He found the strategy guide invaluable.
I have yet to figure out why people say PF1 rogues weren't good.
I don't know what games people played in that they were able to go into shops and buy loads of any type of wand they wanted, like a magic walmart.Core Rogues? Crappy accuracy due to mid BAB, main combat ability situational and denied by things as simple as concealment of any sort, supposedly fantastic big bag of skill points invalidated by abundance and power level of magic and the "skills can only achieve realistic real-world human limits" paradigm.
Unchained Rogues are a bit better, but of course, that didn't make it into the Strategy Guide.
Magic Walmart is the default of 3.5 D&D, so it's been 19 years of people buying and crafting whatever they want. Heck, the PF1 Gamemastery Guide flat out says that you have a 70% chance of buying any item that's within price limits of given settlement. And you pretty much need to have it that way, because the underlaying math of the game assumes that you're using the Big Six, so denying access to it is flat out gimping people for no benefit. Doubly so if any of them is a Rogue :)
I agree with all those things but I think they are also things that some groups may never encounter or notice. Like if you imagine a group that doesn't follow concealment that well and wizards that don't prep spells for utility too often added with playing typically low level and You may not ever notice those problem. That said I think unchained was great but I really love the PF2 skill system It's probably my favorite part or at least one of my fav parts for pf2.
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I agree with all those things but I think they are also things that some groups may never encounter or notice. Like if you imagine a group that doesn't follow concealment that well and wizards that don't prep spells for utility too often added with playing typically low level and You may not ever notice those problem. That said I think unchained was great but I really love the PF2 skill system It's probably my favorite part or at least one of my fav parts for pf2.I had a friend who was a new player to PF1. He found the strategy guide invaluable.
I have yet to figure out why people say PF1 rogues weren't good.
I don't know what games people played in that they were able to go into shops and buy loads of any type of wand they wanted, like a magic walmart.Core Rogues? Crappy accuracy due to mid BAB, main combat ability situational and denied by things as simple as concealment of any sort, supposedly fantastic big bag of skill points invalidated by abundance and power level of magic and the "skills can only achieve realistic real-world human limits" paradigm.
Unchained Rogues are a bit better, but of course, that didn't make it into the Strategy Guide.
Magic Walmart is the default of 3.5 D&D, so it's been 19 years of people buying and crafting whatever they want. Heck, the PF1 Gamemastery Guide flat out says that you have a 70% chance of buying any item that's within price limits of given settlement. And you pretty much need to have it that way, because the underlaying math of the game assumes that you're using the Big Six, so denying access to it is flat out gimping people for no benefit. Doubly so if any of them is a Rogue :)
Of course, a group of casual players with a laid back GM would never encounter many of crunch issues in PF1.
But all it takes is one power gamer or one rules-strict GM to blow things up. And a game should be designed as to prevent that from happening. Which PF2 largely succeeds at.
I'm actually a little concerned about this because while I love all the new content, I don't want the game to bloat too fast. I want it to have a long shelf life (which, in fairness, Pathfinder 1e lasted near on a decade, and that was *with* 3.5e compatibility, so maybe it just isn't a problem.)
The initial frenzy is mostly just to make sure people have what they need to run stuff the way they want to run it. They can't replicate/transfer all the 10 years of stuff immediately but they wanted to get as much of the really popular stuff converted ASAP . After that rush basically instead of having the thin paper back stuff coming out every month you are getting mostly your quarterly hard cover versions of them. This also should make it a lot easier to figure out where things are in the future so a lot easier to get players the info they need in a way that makes sense.
Afaict, once we get a book with a few dozen NPC stat blocks of various levels for the GM to use on the fly, this game should be so easy to run any adventure from any system.
Want to run Egg of the Phoenix or Ravenloft from 1E AD&D? Piece of cake.
Once people see how easy it is, their shelf of "old" content from PF1 (or even 3.5, AD&D, or 5E) will suddenly be seen as a wealth of campaign material again.
And, Gorbacz, I see what you're saying. I guess we just always ran games differently. The wizard in the tower outside of town was a mysterious figure everyone was afraid to talk to. Not.. oh, wizards come in here and shop all the time. We always tried to keep the mystery and wonder of the story. And not treat it like an MMO.
But I believe PF2 is changing the landscape. And we're all really excited to see where it goes.
Books I hope to see:
Adventurer's Armory - Big big of gear, equipment, magic items, and new class Artificer (great at crafting, can magically repair damage to armor and weapons, and can temporarily imbue armor and weapons with runes).
Occult/Horror Book - Has 3 of the Occult Classes and 2-3 Horror Classes. For horror themed classes I am thinking Inquisitor, Slayer, and Shifter? And of course additional player themed stuff similar to advanced Class Guide.
I would absolutely love both of these. With the Occult spell list it certainly seems like Paizo has the Occult classes in mind and future-proofed the base system to get ready for them.
What are the odds that playtesting a couple new classes will be a yearly thing? And we'll get another fall playtest announcement at GenCon like we did this year for the APG? I'd be down as long as Paizo feels they can continue doing it with quality, and as long as they feel they have solid ideas for new classes, of course. I'd wager there's at least two or three more years worth of solid material to continue this cycle waiting from PF1e if Paizo does do that. Assuming that it stays at the 3-4 class count.
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I want psionics so I can use 2e for Dark Sun! Please say we'll see psionics.
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"But probably the most popular gimmick for Scientistic writers is to use the magical Law of Words of Power (see Chapter 6) and to change the horribly unscientific sounding word “magic” to something else, such as “psychic,” or “paranormal,” or “psionic.” Yes, that last term sounds really scientific! This allows them to use the same old magical materials in respectable new arrangements, without ever having to admit what they have done. Many of the games thus set up systems of psionics as if the phenomena covered under that term were somehow different from those of magic. This can be a workable game system in science fiction games which have no magicians as such, but it leaves the characters far less powerful and effective than they could be if they just called what they were doing “magic” and took advantage of the millennia of already existing research and practice." -- P.E.I. Bonewits, Authentic Thaumaturgy, 2nd Edition, 1998.
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I want psionics so I can use 2e for Dark Sun! Please say we'll see psionics.
The Designers and Developers stated repeatedly during P1 when this was brought up that Power Point Psionics was not something they were interested in pursuing, we got Occult Magic instead.
And with how Magic is set up in P2 this is even more unlikely.
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I want psionics so I can use 2e for Dark Sun! Please say we'll see psionics.The Designers and Developers stated repeatedly during P1 when this was brought up that Power Point Psionics was not something they were interested in pursuing, we got Occult Magic instead.
And with how Magic is set up in P2 this is even more unlikely.
Could you elaborate on the last point? I would very much like to understand why this would be so.
Honest question ;-)
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I want psionics so I can use 2e for Dark Sun! Please say we'll see psionics.The Designers and Developers stated repeatedly during P1 when this was brought up that Power Point Psionics was not something they were interested in pursuing, we got Occult Magic instead.
And with how Magic is set up in P2 this is even more unlikely.
Could you elaborate on the last point? I would very much like to understand why this would be so.
Honest question ;-)
With how it's been codified amongst all the casters, and with Focus and Focus Spells being the point option in this game being too low to mimic Power Points extensive spending, not to mention the much tighter math doesn't really allow for the wide spectrum of damage and effects between normal casting to Novaving that Power Points encouraged.
The closest we'll most likely see that is the Kineticist spending multiple Actions to buff up their blasts.
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I can imagine a 3rd party doing it. It's possible paizo could do something with it but it might be drastically different from the old way kind of like how different the occult stuff (which is what rysk was saying kind of.)
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If Paizo is really trying to bring new things to the game, perhaps a detailed analysis and mechanics set for flight and 3D adventure. Can anyone see 3D facing, flight speed impacts due to damage, damage increases due to height, along with accuracy decreases, aerial combat, etc.
Ask yourself, if you are a lord somewhere and have significant sums of money at your disposal, are you going to have specialized troops to handle beasties from any direction. Flying beasties, are out there and form some of the worst creatures to run into. Having a troop of hippogriff knights would be a solid investment in your defenses and when needed provide a substantial offensive capability.
So why isn't something like this a possibility for the mid / high level adventurer? In 1st edition it proved unbalancing (1st level gnome / roc druid anyone) but it also had very little effort put into it, a couple pages at most.
I know it would be very difficult to keep flight balanced, but that's why it might take a full book, or at least significant section of one.
That's what I would like to see.
Core Rogues? Crappy accuracy due to mid BAB, main combat ability situational and denied by things as simple as concealment of any sort, supposedly fantastic big bag of skill points invalidated by abundance and power level of magic and the "skills can only achieve realistic real-world human limits" paradigm.
Unchained Rogues are a bit better, but of course, that didn't make it into the Strategy Guide.
It always seemed like a easy fix for rogues was to give them full BAB...it's not like that would make them fighters by any stretch.
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I loved psionics and Dark Sun so much. Eberron also used psionics.
I wonder if a 3rd party will do it. Even if not with power points, at least spontaneous.
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It always seemed like a easy fix for rogues was to give them full BAB...it's not like that would make them fighters by any stretch.Core Rogues? Crappy accuracy due to mid BAB, main combat ability situational and denied by things as simple as concealment of any sort, supposedly fantastic big bag of skill points invalidated by abundance and power level of magic and the "skills can only achieve realistic real-world human limits" paradigm.
Unchained Rogues are a bit better, but of course, that didn't make it into the Strategy Guide.
No, it would have made them much better than fighters. ;D