I originally posted this in the Hell's Vengeance forum, but there isn't a lot of traffic there. This is more of a rules question than a "running the adventure" question anyhow.
I am DMing HV, and we are nearing the end of book 1, and I am getting tripped up by the hound archon’s “change shape” ability. I know several of them appear later on in the AP as well, so I’d really like to get a handle on them, and a quick search hasn’t yielded much help.
A hound archon’s change shape allows them to assume any canine from small to large, per Beast Shape II. The change shape universal monster ability says it functions as the appropriate polymorph spell, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores.
The polymorph subschool lists a number of effects that impact your stats.
So what exactly happens if a hound archon changes into say, a large dire wolf?
Here is what is obvious to me that happens during the usage of change shape
1) Archon does NOT get +4 size bonus to strength (expressly mentioned in change shape)
2) Archon changes to large size, gaining associated bonuses / penalties to AC, Attacks, CMB/CMD, Stealth skill
3) He retains low-light vision and scent (dire wolf also has these, and BS II allows them)
4) He gains trip ability of a dire wolf, and +4 to CMD vs trip for having 4 legs
5) Replaces his bite / slam with bite attack of a dire wolf (1d8 dmg), at the hound archon’s BA bonus (+6), including proficiency (per polymorph subschool rules)
6) Gear (sword) melds into body, per rules for changing into an animal type (per polymorph subschool rules)
7) Gains +10 to disguise skill to appear as a dire wolf (per polymorph subschool rules)
8) Loses darkvision, which is specifically called out as something lost in the polymorph subschool rules
Here is what is not obvious to me when he uses change shape
1) What is his natural armor in dire wolf form? BS II says you get a “+4 natural armor bonus”. Does this mean a bonus of +4 to his original +9 natural amount? Does it mean you replace his +9 with +4 instead? Or does it mean you take the +3 normal nat AC of a dire wolf and then add a +4 bonus to this? This to me, is VERY unclear (mainly due to the word “bonus”) and I could see a case for it being either +4 or +7 or +13.
2) Per polymorph rules, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that DEPEND ON YOUR ORIGINAL FORM. I don’t know what this means. Which of the following abilities does and does not a hound archon retain when using change shape?
*Constant spell-like abilities: detect evil, magic circle against evil.
*At will spell-like abilities: aid, continual flame, greater teleport, message.
*Aura of menace
*Damage Reduction
*Immunities
*Spell Resistance
*True Speech
For my part, I'm tempted to let him keep all of the above, as they seem to come from divine gifts, rather than his "form". At the very least i would assume the SLAs stay, because they aren't ex or su. But I am interested in knowing what the rules actually say should happen.
Thanks in advance for any answers. This is, imo, a very confusing topic.
1) They don't keep their old Natural Armor because you've polymorphed into something new. The +4 NA bonus from Change Shape replaces the NA bonus you had in Archon form.
2) The Archon would keep its SLA's like detect evil, etc. Aura of Menace is a Supernatural Ability, and so are the rest of those, including True Speech. So anything that is Supernatural or Extraordinary is lost. Any Spells or SLA's are kept.
Here's another wrinkle to add, and I promise I'm not being obtuse on purpose:
Per the adventure, the hound archon has used change shape to turn into a dog when he is first encountered.
"As soon as anyone crosses more than halfway across the bridge, the dog
speaks in a clear, bold voice, “You shall go no farther.” Once he has issued this warning, Aericad assumes his true form, threatening any
who try to cross the bridge."
If he loses ALL "su" abilities, including True Speech, how is he speaking common while in dog form?
Aura of Menace is a Supernatural Ability, and so are the rest of those, including True Speech. So anything that is Supernatural or Extraordinary is lost.
This is completely wrong. "While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form" CRB pg 212.
Darkvision, low-light vision, Aura of Menace, immunities, bonus against poison, and truespeech are all abilities explicitly granted by the archon subtype (that you don't lose), which means an archon has those independant of its form. The DR/good is also something every archon seems to have, and thus also not type dependant. SR is at least common, and thus follows the same logic.
Yes, you keep the darkvision and LLV, because they're abilities granted by the gods, and not aspects of their physiology (does a Lantern Archon or Harbinger Archon even have eyes?). The polymorph are simply written from a PC point of view.
Unless you can specifically say which part/aspect of the body produces the ability, you keep it.
yeah the "depending on form" clause was what was getting me.
but since type is retained, what you're saying makes a lot of sense.
for me, just from a logical standpoint, i was thinking along the lines of: why would a hound archon ever turn into a dog/wolf, if he would have to sacrifice all of his defensive abilities? seems like a huge risk. if he keeps them all, it is a nice way to have a disguise, have some flexibility, etc.
thanks for the responses!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's indeed one of the most vague parts of the rules, and that's before the Paizos ridiculously anthrocentric writing becomes an issue. There're plenty of abilities possessed by the core races that are unclear. Elven Immunities, for instance - 3.5 elves didn't sleep, and the immunity to sleep effects was an extension of that, but Pathfinder elves do sleep, so where does that immunity even come from?
The Polymorph rules are also probably that part of the rules where you have to go the most by what's most likely intended, rather then going by what's actually written.
I think it's actually comperatively easy in this case, because everything that both humanoid and very-much-non-humanoid archons have is pretty clearly something not biological. I'm more puzzeled how a "miniaturized orrery" that "zips through the air" can speak in any language, than how a hound-archon-turned-dog does it, to be honest.