I tried doing some research on the forums for this and was having trouble finding things that directly addressed what I'm looking for.
I'm planning for the future and in a few levels my hunter will be picking up an additional animal companion. I'm looking at getting a warcat but I'm open to other options.
I'm mainly trying to figure out feats for the warcat to take. I already have and/or will be getting teamwork feats like precise strike, pack flanking, outflank, etc, which get auto-shared thanks to hunters tactics. It also will have an int of 4 thanks to Eye for Talent, so any feat it can physically use is fair game.
Power Attack I think is a given. It's beyond this point that I'm not sure. I could go the grappling route (dirty trick, rapid grappler, etc.) but even with rake it ends up losing attacks, so it doesn't strike me as an effective way to go.
I've looked at the following options
Improved Natural Attack
Rending Claws
The overall benefits of these seem pretty minor and I'm not sure they are worth a feat. I also looked at chaining the following feats off of Feral Combat Training
Bleeding Attack
Shark Style
Boar Style
Martial Focus->Weapon Style Mastery + any 2 styles
However, each option is incredibly feat intensive for what you get out of it. I feel like I'm missing something really obvious but many of the feats that seem like they would be good are much less impressive once you start to dig down and/or easily get overshadowed by magic items/spells.
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I have found beyond a certain point damage becomes a game of items and magic. Hunters blessing, animal growth polymorph spells, haste etc.
Next step is finding friends to provide bonuses you don't have access too. Prayer, inspire courage and so on.
Menacing is a good ehancement that buffs the team.
Finally, their is Death from above and Branch pounce. Though this with pounce may fall in to the roquefort level of cheese.
Primary gore attack + Tusk blades + AoMF + reach + Paired Opportunists (shared by Hunter3 rider).
I have found beyond a certain point damage becomes a game of items and magic. Hunters blessing, animal growth polymorph spells, haste etc.
Next step is finding friends to provide bonuses you don't have access too. Prayer, inspire courage and so on.
Menacing is a good ehancement that buffs the team.
Finally, their is Death from above and Branch pounce. Though this with pounce may fall in to the roquefort level of cheese.
Branch pounce has possibilities, of course I would need to give it a reliable method of triggering the feat and some sort of DR to counteract the damage to its self and even then this FAQ suggests that only the first attack would benefit from the extra damage. Of course I have seen disagreement on this point as the FAQ is talking about iterative attacks and not natural weapons. Death from above is only a +2 to hit and it's situational. Granted its a situation I would be regularly in if I'm able to make use of branch pounce on a regular basis.
Any thoughts on a reliable way to trigger branch pounce? I was thinking flight, but looking at the feat again I'm not sure that qualifies as "jumping down"
Primary gore attack + Tusk blades + AoMF + reach + Paired Opportunists (shared by Hunter3 rider).
what feat gives me a primary gore attack?
There is the magic item Mammoth Lord's Helm which I have on my wishlist, but I'm not sure that tusk blades can be combined with it. Thought I guess they could.
As for reach, I suppose there's the feat Lunge and I could probably make the argument to my DM that monkey lunge is supposed to just remove the AC penalty and nothing else.
Though, I'm not sure how much of a benefit reach is going to be on creature that has grab. It makes a lot of sense on something like a wolf which gets free trip attempts. Less so when it comes to grapple since part of the maneuver is pulling the enemy next to you, completely negating any reach advantage you have.
I don't suppose there's an item similar to tusk blades for claws and/or bite attacks?
crit fishing I suppose could be a way to go, but a lot of those feats require a high BAB and animal companions are for all practical purposes only a 3/4 BAB "class", meaning even with retraining I don't know how deep I'd be able to get into such a build. What sort of feats would I even be looking at for a crit fishing build?
I've seen a build for this in a DPR Olympics. The contributor found a way to summon one or 2 more Animals that match the Animal Companion, and I think he managed to multiply their enhancement bonuses or something . He liked Arsinotheriums. His DPR was frighteningly high.
I'll look for it. my build already includes 2 full progression animal companions and Erastil's Twin Fang Deific obedience boon. Which allows me to temporarily copy one of them. I'm mainly trying to figure out what sort of feats said animal companions would actually take. I've tried looking up feat suggestions for natural weapons but its always from the perspective of a character and an animal companion quite simply doesn't tend to meet the pre-reqs. Like, I would love for it be able to take something like arcane strike but the animal companion isn't a spellcaster and thus doesn't meet the pre-reqs.
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I actually use other missiles to deliver the Pheromone, so Pheromone Javelins. That way I can use my shield while "marking" the target for the AC.
Round 1: Cast a spell or Drink a Potion of invisibility
Round 2+: Delay until after your AC has attacked, then tap him with a Wand of Vanish...
Repeat each round. If you can actually cast invisibility before starting this cycle, start by casting it on yourself, from a wand or a potion even of a potion. Otherwise you might want to eventually just get a wand of Invisibility as well as the Vanish wand.)
Monsters see the AC blink in (the first swing is from invisibility, so the target is flatfooted and the attack is at +2 to hit), take a full attack and then blink out before anyone else gets an action. Cost is one 1st level wand charge each combat round. See if you can get the AC to 5' step after the Vanish... so it disappears then steps to a new location.
Everyone sees AC attack from nowhere - then vanish... "Blink Dog".
It actually doesn't "Optimizing Damage output" as much as increase protection...
Pheromone Arrows are a good find. Since both my Animal companions have scent and my character can gain scent for himself via his Animal Focus(wolf) ability or even something like an animal mask. When it comes to a boss fight or other big bad I could easily see opening with my orc hornbow with a pheromone arrow before closing in with my butchering axe.
As for the blink dog tactic. I'm not sure that's a good use of my action economy. UMD is a class skill for me so I could use a wand of vanish. But I could only use the tactic with one of my two animal companions and I would be giving up my own attacks (Butchering Axe and Bite) to do it.
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Pheromone Arrows are a good find. Since both my Animal companions have scent and my character can gain scent for himself via his Animal Focus(wolf) ability or even something like an animal mask. When it comes to a boss fight or other big bad I could easily see opening with my orc hornbow with a pheromone arrow before closing in with my butchering axe.
As for the blink dog tactic. I'm not sure that's a good use of my action economy. UMD is a class skill for me so I could use a wand of vanish. But I could only use the tactic with one of my two animal companions and I would be giving up my own attacks (Butchering Axe and Bite) to do it.
Percy is the name - Percy Footman. Rather than “adventurer” I prefer to call myself "a dog delivery system"! My mount (named "A.C.") is much better at this adventuring stuff than I am, I just keep him out of trouble and open doors for him and that sort of thing...
;)
Pathfinder Society, Silver Crusade faction - though formally Cheliax, until the Paracountesss no longer spoke for my homeland. Ah... And a member of HouseHold Servants Local 433, though I am a bit behind on the dues for that... Class wise I'm a bit of a mutt. (several martial classes, Fighter/Paladin/Cavalier/etc.).
Combat wise I really don't do much damage myself, I leave that to A.C. - I'm more of a Bodyguard and specialize more in improving the parties defenses.
The Blink Dog trick is just one of my gimmicks (Bodyguard, Mounted Combat, Mounted Shield, Tower Shield, Paladin Levels, etc.)
Primary gore attack + Tusk blades + AoMF + reach + Paired Opportunists (shared by Hunter3 rider).what feat gives me a primary gore attack?
That's the animal companion (not you); if its only attack form is XYZ, then XYZ is its primary attack.
The reason we want a gore is for Tusk Blades applicability (note: they cannot be fitted to teeth, only horns or tusks). The reason we want a primary attack is for 1.5x multiplication of both strength and Power Attack damage, and all the better with Powerful Charge.
I've seen a build for this in a DPR Olympics. The contributor found a way to summon one or 2 more Animals that match the Animal Companion, and I think he managed to multiply their enhancement bonuses or something . He liked Arsinotheriums. His DPR was frighteningly high.
<steepling fingers>
"Yeeesss.... It was *delightfully* excessive, wasn't it?"
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Primary gore attack + Tusk blades + AoMF + reach + Paired Opportunists (shared by Hunter3 rider).what feat gives me a primary gore attack?That's the animal companion (not you); if its only attack form is XYZ, then XYZ is its primary attack.
The reason we want a gore is for Tusk Blades applicability (note: they cannot be fitted to teeth, only horns or tusks). The reason we want a primary attack is for 1.5x multiplication of both strength and Power Attack damage, and all the better with Powerful Charge.
looks like I'll have to work up a bull rush based animal companion to see if it's more appealing than the pounce companion. In the mean time I did run across the feat Demonic Style which seems like it would be good either way as do it's follow up feats (Demonic Momentum & Demonic Slaughter).
I also found the following feats which may or may not be worth it.
Creature Focus
Thrill of the Hunt
Blood Feast
Meditation Master
Body Control
Mindful Meditation
Ability Mastery
Bloody Assault
Caster's Champion
Otherwise, if I can't find feats I'm satisfied with that work to increase its damage, martial focus and the cut from the air line of feats seem appealing for my animal companion to take.
any thoughts?
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Primary gore attack + Tusk blades + AoMF + reach + Paired Opportunists (shared by Hunter3 rider).what feat gives me a primary gore attack?That's the animal companion (not you); if its only attack form is XYZ, then XYZ is its primary attack.
The reason we want a gore is for Tusk Blades applicability (note: they cannot be fitted to teeth, only horns or tusks). The reason we want a primary attack is for 1.5x multiplication of both strength and Power Attack damage, and all the better with Powerful Charge.
looks like I'll have to work up a bull rush based animal companion to see if it's more appealing than the pounce companion. In the mean time I did run across the feat Demonic Style which seems like it would be good either way as do it's follow up feats.
I also found the following feats which may or may not be worth it.
Creature Focus
Thrill of the Hunt
Blood Feast
Meditation Master
Body Control
Mindful Meditation
Ability Mastery
Bloody Assault
Caster's ChampionOtherwise, if I can't find feats I'm satisfied with that work to increase its damage, martial focus and the cut from the air line of feats seem appealing for my animal companion to take.
Creature Focus
Thrill of the Hunt
Blood Feast
Meditation Master
Birth Control
Mindful Meditation
Ability Mastery
Bloody Assault
Caster's Champion
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Here's a suggestion that extends Slim Jim's post above. Lots of these options discuss damage the AC inflicts on it's own turn but ignore potential damage the AC inflicts during the GM's turn. Here's one way for an AC to be quite effective on the GM's turn. I've played such a build several times and can say from experience that it works really well. The combination of Combat Reflexes and Paired opportunists works really well. It's especially effective on a non-martial PC: the wimpy PC makes the trip attempt at reach, with no downside if it fails, while the Axe Beak delivers damage to the [hopefully prone for +8 to hit] foe.
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Paired Opportunists is the dopest feat in the game for critter-riders. Build to make it trigger early and often and on through next Tuesday.
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Creature Focus
Thrill of the Hunt
Blood Feast
Meditation Master
Birth Control
Mindful Meditation
Ability Mastery
Bloody Assault
Caster's Champion
lol, well I mean in a way my goal is to keep the enemy from reproducing so maybe that would be a good feat to pursue.
Here's a suggestion that extends Slim Jim's post above. Lots of these options discuss damage the AC inflicts on it's own turn but ignore potential damage the AC inflicts during the GM's turn. Here's one way for an AC to be quite effective on the GM's turn. I've played such a build several times and can say from experience that it works really well. The combination of Combat Reflexes and Paired opportunists works really well. It's especially effective on a non-martial PC: the wimpy PC makes the trip attempt at reach, with no downside if it fails, while the Axe Beak delivers damage to the [hopefully prone for +8 to hit] foe.
So, part of your build assumes a non-martial main character which is not the case for me. But ignoring that lets look at some numbers real quick. First lets look at the best case senario you presented where enemies randomly provoke an AoO 4 times after the bird gets to attack twice after not having to move very far (haste only grants the extra attack on a full attack).
With bull's Str, channel vigor and inspire courage (my character is not able to cast these spells so we will assume this comes from other helpful party members. As an extra bonus we will assume my character and the buffs actually provided by my character at the level when his second animal companion is level 5. Specifically (Auspicious Birth, Outflank, Precise Strike, Pack flanking and Paired Opportunists), I would also be providing animal focus but since it overlaps with bull's str we will ignore it.
We will assume my character has his once per day enlarge person active, allowing the axe beak to benefit from precise strike on AoO.
2 x Standard Action attacks at +17 for 3D6+11 (22 avg dmg)
4 x possible AoOs at +21 for 3D6+11 (22 avg dmg)
Total dmg is 132
Now, my proposed warcat with power attack, Demonic Style and Combat Reflexes
2 x bite attacks at +14 (+3+3+2+2+5-1) for 2d6+9[+3+2+2+2] (16 avg dmg)
2 x claw attacks at +14 for 1d4+1d6+9 (15 avg dmg)
Total dmg is 62 or about half
keeping in mind that it doesn't have pounce at this level nor grab (it gets rake with no way of actually using it), it also gains no benefit from demonic style. This also assumes no AoO. Each AoO adds another 16 dmg. At 4, this would be +64 dmg putting it 6 points below the axe beak.
What happens at 7th level?
going from 5 to 7 animal companions in general gain +2 BAB, +1 str/dex we will assume that this provides the axebeak with +2 to hit and +1 to dmg. so it changes to
2 x Standard Action attacks at +19 for 3D6+12 (23 avg dmg)
4 x possible AoOs at +23 for 3D6+12 (23 avg dmg)
Total dmg is 138
The warcat however changes to
2 x bite attacks at +22 [+7+5+2+2+5-2+1+2] for 1d8+1d6+25[+7+4+2+2+2] (33 avg dmg)
4 x claw attacks at +22 for 2d6+25 (32 avg dmg)
Total dmg is 194
on round 2 it loses 2 claw attacks and demonic style dropping its dmg to 128
This all of course assumes that paired opportunists never triggers for the warcat, any AoO that occur adds another 31 dmg. Since my character has reach if circumstances are actually triggering 4 AoO, the warcat could potentially add another 124 dmg.
Once its able to get pounce the warcat seems like a better choice, unless there's something I've missed. Even pre-pounce, the axe beak only slightly out performs the warcat in ideal circumstances.
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If you get rhino or mammoth armor you can increase charge damage.
If you find a skald you help so you can get raging grappler then add constrict from a belt to effectively triple you damage. Constrict with grab and release can be used without the rage power.
Celestial Servant through racial heritage. Let's the animal smite.
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Here's a suggestion that extends Slim Jim's post above. Lots of these options discuss damage the AC inflicts on it's own turn but ignore potential damage the AC inflicts during the GM's turn. Here's one way for an AC to be quite effective on the GM's turn. I've played such a build several times and can say from experience that it works really well. The combination of Combat Reflexes and Paired opportunists works really well. It's especially effective on a non-martial PC: the wimpy PC makes the trip attempt at reach, with no downside if it fails, while the Axe Beak delivers damage to the [hopefully prone for +8 to hit] foe.[Solid & mathematically sound analysis]
Wow! Thanks for that detailed mathematical analysis! Cool oh! Sounds like you have things pretty optimized. It certainly seems that your build does solidly more damage most of the time.
Regarding generating lots of AoOs, it's my experience that the AC with normal 10' reach doesn't get a whole lot of AoOs. When it's possible to cast Enlarge Person on one's AC, which is only possible when one gets the Share Spells feature from the same class that grants Enlarge Person (e.g. Cleric, Sorcerer, a few others) then actual performance is closer to optimal. A Huge AC with 15' reach, +2 Size Bonus to STR, and one fewer AoO, is much more able to lock down foes. Enlarge Person on an AC allows one to start riding it as soon as the AC is in play. So great at low levels but less useful at higher level. Even one level of Cleric, Sylvan Sorcerer, etc. grants both Share Spells and Enlarge Person.
Your analysis is very thorough so you're probably considering Trip. Trip stops being valuable somewhere around 9th level. Tripping is sometimes terrific before that. When fighting multiple opponent who are vulnerable to trip is when you are sure to use your entire AoO count. So, again, powerful at low levels but inferior from levels 7+ or 9+.
Thanks for that detailed analysis. Will your PC ride your Warcat?
If you get rhino or mammoth armor you can increase charge damage.
If you find a skald you help so you can get raging grappler then add constrict from a belt to effectively triple you damage. Constrict with grab and release can be used without the rage power.
Celestial Servant through racial heritage. Let's the animal smite.
one of our party member is in fact playing a skald, so I may have to suggest that once they start getting rage powers.
Thanks for that detailed analysis. Will your PC ride your Warcat?
Heh, no problem. I honestly hadn't run the numbers on the warcat prior to making that post so I really wasn't sure how it would stack up.
As for riding the warcat. Yes and no. I'm initially starting with a riding constrictor via the cavalier's First Mother's Fang archetype. Which I'm having take the Charger animal companion archetype. The plan is to use it as my primary animal companion and mount. Once I hit 9th level I should qualify for the Mammoth Rider PRC which specifically adds additional animal companion options. So, if I feel that I need to make a change because the constrictor isn't working out for me any more I could switch it for a big cat or even a second warcat (pending DM approval).
For the Warcat I'm looking at having it take the bodyguard archetype and the teamwork feat lookout via the mythic path ability Tactical Genius. I'm not looking to have it jump in the way of attacks though so feats like in harm's way aren't appealing to me. I figure combat starts and I can charge an enemy while riding my constrictor and then have the warcat charge afterwards against the same enemy. This way my character and both animal companions fully benefit from outflank and precise strike.
I have a few teamwork feats and general feats that aren't set in stone post 10th level for my character, but in both cases I have a note that says pick 3 and then I have a list of 5+ feats.
Since I may not be keeping the snake past level 9, I have its feats pretty well sorted out. It's really the warcat's feats I've been struggling with since ultimately I'm looking at needing to pick 11 feats for it and I only have 2 maybe 3 nailed down. Independent of the teamwork feats I'm sharing with it.
At higher levels skip the bodyguard archetype put a point into int and just take the feats. Giving up evasion sucks but giving up spell share is worse.
The main reason to take bodyguard is because it always gets to act during the surprise round. Lookout means I also always get to act during the surprise round. Alertness is nice but it's not why I'm taking bodyguard. I agree it sucks to give up share spells, but I'm pretty limited when it comes to spells anyway between the 4 level cavalier dip and the 1+ levels in mammoth rider. I'll never even see 6th level spells. What spells would my animal companion be missing out on?
As for evasion, I can get it back either though pack focus or the totem beast feat and picking mouse. So, while annoying Its not a huge loss.
Paired Opportunists is the dopest feat in the game for critter-riders. Build to make it trigger early and often and on through next Tuesday.
Also up there is Amplified Rage (you'll need to figure out one of a few ways of sharing it with your sidekick).
There's the feat Improved Companion. You can use that to get an extra attack on your AC such as Bite, Claws, or Slam.
^ Just in case there is any confusion, I believe they mean the Evolved Companion Feat, (which can be taken multiple times).
Yes, that's what I meant.
There's the feat Improved Companion. You can use that to get an extra attack on your AC such as Bite, Claws, or Slam.
I don't believe it's a feat my animal companion can take. I'm looking for feats that my animal companion can take not so much feats that my character can take to improve my animal companion. It'd be awesome if I could get it by spending one of my animal companion's feats.
So, after doing some additional research I'm looking at doing the following for the warcat's feats.
1 / 1 / 1 Power Attack
2 / 2 / 2 Dirty Fighting
5 / 3 / 3 Improved Trip
8 / 5 / 4 Combat Reflexes
10 / 6 / 5 Greater Trip
13 / 8 / 6 Improved Bull Rush
16 / 9 / 7 Forceful Charge
18 / 11 / 8 Improved Forceful Charge
21 / 12 / 9 Demonic Style
23 / 14 / 10 Demonic Momentum
I figure at lower levels I could have it sub one of it's claw attacks for a trip attack. If it succeeds, Greater Trip with trigger with paired opportunists giving myself and both animal companions a free AoO. At higher levels, improved forceful charge combined with Greater Trip would allow the warcat to perform a free bullrush that if successful enough gives a free trip, which if successful provokes an AoO from all 3.
The last bit I'm not sure about as I'm basically relying on a successful trip and very successful bullrush (which has a good chance of knocking the enemy out of position) just to keep 1 claw attack.
Is there an easier way to make enemies provoke AoO? or something better to pursue than the Greater Trip + Imp. Forceful Charge combo?
I suppose I could grab the bully archetype to save me from having to take dirty fighting. But it isn't compatible with bodyguard and it's not possible to bring greater trip online any sooner because of the BAB pre-req.