Hi there,
I have almost complete the kind of path I am going to pursue, but I have some doubts about the Divine Ally.
I am a Champion ( redeemer ), and I am going to play as a frontline.
I have some doubts about my Divine Ally.
I guess I will take the Divine Blade Ally.
However, I am not sure about pursuing the whole Blade path.
What bother me is:
"Is a better enchantment worth 2 class talents?"
Personally, I am in love with the shifting rune ( which is available at lvl 3, which also unlocks the weapon critical specialization ).
I am planning to give 4 extra talents ( if needed ) and I was considering a shield as a second ally ( which has no requirements for the 20th talent ).
So here's 3 options:
FIRST
[Divine Ally (blade)]
- Smite Evil
- Radiant Blade Spirit
- Instrument of Zeal
- Radiant Blade Master
SECOND
[Divine Ally (blade)]
- Second Ally (Shield)
- Shield Paragon
- Extra talent
- Extra Talent
THIRD
[Divine Ally (blade)]
- Second Ally (Shield)
- 3 extra feats
( currently i will be multiclassing cleric, just because it fits perfectly with paladin class feat gaps, and lvl 2 and lvl 4 paladin class feats are outrageous in terms of utility ).
Share your thoughts with me ;)
To be honest the main attractive of Divine Ally Blade for me is the fact that Smite Evil is there.
But my option would be:
Divine Ally Blade
Smite Evil
Second Ally Shield
Shield Paragon
Kyrone wrote: To be honest the main attractive of Divine Ally Blade for me is the fact that Smite Evil is there.
But my option would be:
Divine Ally Blade
Smite Evil
Second Ally Shield
Shield Paragon
Yeah I guess so.
Instrument of zeal would be nice ( I could use heighten heroism on me to achieve a combat lvl equal to a fighter, and then move on to Second Ally, but only at lvl 20 ).
I just hate that I have to choose and can't get all three hahah.
Well the mount one is useless.
The weapon one is just useful for specific builds, like spiked glove + shield or a 2h Pick, and mostly because of smite evil.
The shield is a good choice because 2 hardness and 50% extra HP is something unique ( there is nothing else, apart from a ridiculous cleric feat, which enhances your shield power ).
K1 wrote: Well the mount one is useless.
The weapon one is just useful for specific builds, like spiked glove + shield or a 2h Pick, and mostly because of smite evil.
The shield is a good choice because 2 hardness and 50% extra HP is something unique ( there is nothing else, apart from a ridiculous cleric feat, which enhances your shield power ).
The mount is great. It can flank and fight and carry and is fun for role play.
The Blade is also great. Being able to take advantage of creature weaknesses is important. And Smite Evil.
I agree with Unikatze in that I wish I could have all three, and be able to pursue the upgrades.
FWIW, I too am setting up a Redeemer as a front line defense for the rest of the team. I'm intrigued by your plan to MC to Cleric. Have you looked at any other Archetypes? I was considering Bard, but haven't really worked out what that would look like
Divine Ally pg 108 wrote: Steed Ally: You gain a young animal companion as a mount (page 214). Ordinarily, your animal companion is one that has the mount special ability, such as a horse. You can select a different animal companion (GM’s discretion), but this ability doesn’t grant it the mount special ability. Actually it looks like you can grab any animal companion with the ‘Steed’ Divine Ally; which makes this one more interesting than on first look. Makes me want to make a Dwarf Champion that goes into battle with his divine bear ally, Misha.
Sapient wrote: K1 wrote: Well the mount one is useless.
The weapon one is just useful for specific builds, like spiked glove + shield or a 2h Pick, and mostly because of smite evil.
The shield is a good choice because 2 hardness and 50% extra HP is something unique ( there is nothing else, apart from a ridiculous cleric feat, which enhances your shield power ).
The mount is great. It can flank and fight and carry and is fun for role play.
The Blade is also great. Being able to take advantage of creature weaknesses is important. And Smite Evil.
I agree with Unikatze in that I wish I could have all three, and be able to pursue the upgrades.
FWIW, I too am setting up a Redeemer as a front line defense for the rest of the team. I'm intrigued by your plan to MC to Cleric. Have you looked at any other Archetypes? I was considering Bard, but haven't really worked out what that would look like I am in thr same spot.
Maestro bard with inspire defense could do the trick
1 attack
1 inspire defense
1 raise shield
The problem is you will get it not before lvl 10.
As for inspire heroics, you will have to wait till lvl 16.
If you also want to invest into bard spellcasting you are going to waste 3 more talents, for late game use only, for a total of 6 talents out of 10 ( i dont consider the lvl 1 talent because a champion doesn't have decent choices ).
Fighter could also be good.
Power attack + raise shield since lvl 4, and reflexive shield by lvl 12.
The problem is that you have to waste 4 points in dex, unless half elf who decides to multiclass by lvl 9.
Personally a champion with fighter/bard dedication could be a good choice, but you will see it shine by lvl 20.
Oaths are ridiculous as for improved Lay on Hands talents, which requires 1 action and don't count towards your focus point progression.
Litany and other stuff last for just 1 round.
And so on.
Dedication is definitely the best way
Champion, especially if he plans to go with Smite, and doubly so if he wants both Smite and shield, needs as much action economy enhancers as possible.
For this I think the most "optimal" is monk MC with Flurry and monk weapons.
You can go with Ranger as well, weapon+shield spikes/boss twin takedown. It comes online much earlier and cheaper (feat wise), but it's worse in the sense it loses 1 action per target, so you'd need to hit like 2-3 turns each enemy to be of great value.
P.S.
I do feel some Litanies are amazing even if they're 1 round btw.
shroudb wrote:
For this I think the most "optimal" is monk MC with Flurry and monk weapons.
I guess that depends on how seriously you take the Diety's favored weapon thing. Does Deific Weapon require Champions to use your god's weapon? Or does it just help you make use of them if you so choose? Do the gods really expect Champions to use their favorite weapons? Or just carry it? I find the idea of most of the Gods loving particular weapons to be silly myself.
I also like some Litanies. It is a good use an action, I would guess.
I'm still undecided about multiclassing. There is only one Class Feat level that seems poor to me (at least up through 10). Divine Grace is good at 2, but I'm no crazy about the options at 4. Maybe one of the oaths will fit a given campaign well. All of the Divine Ally options at level 6 are good. And at level 8, you are building on your character concept.
Sapient wrote: shroudb wrote:
For this I think the most "optimal" is monk MC with Flurry and monk weapons.
I guess that depends on how seriously you take the Diety's favored weapon thing. Does Deific Weapon require Champions to use your god's weapon? Or does it just help you make use of them if you so choose? Do the gods really expect Champions to use their favorite weapons? Or just carry it? I find the idea of most of the Gods loving particular weapons to be silly myself.
I also like some Litanies. It is a good use an action, I would guess.
I'm still undecided about multiclassing. There is only one Class Feat level that seems poor to me (at least up through 10). Divine Grace is good at 2, but I'm no crazy about the options at 4. Maybe one of the oaths will fit a given campaign well. All of the Divine Ally options at level 6 are good. And at level 8, you are building on your character concept. Deity weapon is not important at all.
as a "class feature" it exists so that if you want to play with it, and it's a simple bad weapon, it isn't completely terrible imo.
for ceremonies, parades, rituals and such, you can already have one favored weapon for your "official attire" (probably embelished AF as well) but i do not think that the Deities expect their champions to use subpar weapons in actual combat just for their looks.
Sapient wrote: shroudb wrote:
For this I think the most "optimal" is monk MC with Flurry and monk weapons.
I guess that depends on how seriously you take the Diety's favored weapon thing. Does Deific Weapon require Champions to use your god's weapon? Or does it just help you make use of them if you so choose? Do the gods really expect Champions to use their favorite weapons? Or just carry it? I find the idea of most of the Gods loving particular weapons to be silly myself. I look at it differently... The deity weapon bonuses doesn't come from the god wanting you to use the weapon. It's comes because the god loves using that weapon and the boons just comes as it pleases the god that you also love using that weapon... Just my twist on this... in my head.
Justinian9 wrote:
I look at it differently... The deity weapon bonuses doesn't come from the god wanting you to use the weapon. It's comes because the god loves using that weapon and the boons just comes as it pleases the god that you also love using that weapon... Just my twist on this... in my head.
I think that is as good of a rationalization of any. But I still think it is odd that every god loves some certain weapon. Like, Shelyn wants you to be peaceful, perfect art, demonstrate goodness, never give up, and....fight with a glave? The gods have these broad philosophical and behavioral prerogatives, but are weirdly specific about weapons. Torag doesn't care what kind of forge or bellows or anvil you use. But make sure use a warhammer when you fight. Why does Nethys have a favorite weapon, but not a favorite spell? Why would a chaotic god like Cayden Cailean care what kind of weapon you use? Shouldn't he just want you to drink and help people in whatever way you think is fun?
It is hard for me to get excited about using favored weapons as a rule or a role playing motivation when the concept doesn't make much sense to me.
Well, to protect art you have to fight if needed. Also to protect Peace.
This doesn’t mean that you join the fight mindlessly, without first trying some more diplomatic ways.
There’s a difference between being a pacifist or a defender who believe in Peace and worship art.
Finally, there are creatures with no intelligence. Creatures who with you can't talk or discuss and can could, depends the situation, be a danger for the people.
Sapient wrote: Justinian9 wrote:
I look at it differently... The deity weapon bonuses doesn't come from the god wanting you to use the weapon. It's comes because the god loves using that weapon and the boons just comes as it pleases the god that you also love using that weapon... Just my twist on this... in my head.
I think that is as good of a rationalization of any. But I still think it is odd that every god loves some certain weapon. Like, Shelyn wants you to be peaceful, perfect art, demonstrate goodness, never give up, and....fight with a glave? The gods have these broad philosophical and behavioral prerogatives, but are weirdly specific about weapons. Torag doesn't care what kind of forge or bellows or anvil you use. But make sure use a warhammer when you fight. Why does Nethys have a favorite weapon, but not a favorite spell? Why would a chaotic god like Cayden Cailean care what kind of weapon you use? Shouldn't he just want you to drink and help people in whatever way you think is fun?
It is hard for me to get excited about using favored weapons as a rule or a role playing motivation when the concept doesn't make much sense to me. None of that is really relevant to a champion, though, unless they are using an otherwise crappy simple weapon that needed the boost. I expect most champions to just use whatever suits their fighting style.
Clerics, though, you have a point, because as written they only gain expert proficiency with the favored weapon. But I'm holding out hope that this was an oversight like Sorcerers not getting expert in unarmed strikes and such. I intend to house rule it if they don't errata it. All clerics should become experts in simple weapons, and war priests should become experts in martial.
Captain Morgan wrote: Sapient wrote: Justinian9 wrote:
I look at it differently... The deity weapon bonuses doesn't come from the god wanting you to use the weapon. It's comes because the god loves using that weapon and the boons just comes as it pleases the god that you also love using that weapon... Just my twist on this... in my head.
I think that is as good of a rationalization of any. But I still think it is odd that every god loves some certain weapon. Like, Shelyn wants you to be peaceful, perfect art, demonstrate goodness, never give up, and....fight with a glave? The gods have these broad philosophical and behavioral prerogatives, but are weirdly specific about weapons. Torag doesn't care what kind of forge or bellows or anvil you use. But make sure use a warhammer when you fight. Why does Nethys have a favorite weapon, but not a favorite spell? Why would a chaotic god like Cayden Cailean care what kind of weapon you use? Shouldn't he just want you to drink and help people in whatever way you think is fun?
It is hard for me to get excited about using favored weapons as a rule or a role playing motivation when the concept doesn't make much sense to me. None of that is really relevant to a champion, though, unless they are using an otherwise crappy simple weapon that needed the boost. I expect most champions to just use whatever suits their fighting style.
Clerics, though, you have a point, because as written they only gain expert proficiency with the favored weapon. But I'm holding out hope that this was an oversight like Sorcerers not getting expert in unarmed strikes and such. I intend to house rule it if they don't errata it. All clerics should become experts in simple weapons, and war priests should become experts in martial. Well, I'd say that it is more up to the champion to use or not the favourite weapon of his god.
Regardless of what are the game mechanics, a champion could desire to fight with the weapon which is a symbol of his Faith.
Same goes for a Cleric.
About the cleric weapon proficiency, the problem is that by giving more stuff to that class could make him way too versatile. If they want to specialize in something else, there are racial traits or general feats i guess.
Remember that a higher pool of weapons will lead ro higher dices, better traits combinations and so on. Eventually with divine ally, from dedication, they could also unlock the weapon specialization and a free rune.
And while being able to deal with enemies, they will also be able to cast spells as a full caster. There have to be some limits.
Sapient wrote: Justinian9 wrote:
I look at it differently... The deity weapon bonuses doesn't come from the god wanting you to use the weapon. It's comes because the god loves using that weapon and the boons just comes as it pleases the god that you also love using that weapon... Just my twist on this... in my head.
I think that is as good of a rationalization of any. But I still think it is odd that every god loves some certain weapon. Like, Shelyn wants you to be peaceful, perfect art, demonstrate goodness, never give up, and....fight with a glave? The gods have these broad philosophical and behavioral prerogatives, but are weirdly specific about weapons. Torag doesn't care what kind of forge or bellows or anvil you use. But make sure use a warhammer when you fight. Why does Nethys have a favorite weapon, but not a favorite spell? Why would a chaotic god like Cayden Cailean care what kind of weapon you use? Shouldn't he just want you to drink and help people in whatever way you think is fun?
It is hard for me to get excited about using favored weapons as a rule or a role playing motivation when the concept doesn't make much sense to me. Favored weapons sometimes have symbolic importance. Shelyn has the Glaive because it was her brother’s weapon, so the importance is out of sympathy. It would make sense that she gives some favor to those who choose to use it out of some love she still has towards her brother.
She was able to get a critical hit on disarm. That's why she become a goddess.
Pumpkinhead11 wrote:
Favored weapons sometimes have symbolic importance. Shelyn has the Glaive because it was her brother’s weapon, so the importance is out of sympathy. It would make sense that she gives some favor to those who choose to use it out of some love she still has towards her brother.
Sure, I get there is a connection between each god and their favored weapon. My comment is more about why each and every god cares about weapons more than other items. Why not a favorite beer or song or spell or poison? Why is a favored weapon and not a favored "thing" associated with their domains and philosophies?
Mechanically, I don't care too much. I like how weapons in 2e have collections of traits, that give the player interesting options to consider. And if you're table believes your God really cares, "Deific Weapon" says you "bear your deity's favorite weapon". It doesn't say you have to wield it.
All my objections aside, my Champion worships Shelyn and uses her beloved glaive.
Sapient wrote:
All my objections aside, my Champion worships Shelyn and uses her beloved glaive.
I was in the same spot.
My character embraced the path of redempion because got betrayed by her own brother, and that's the reason she felt a deep connection with shelyn, choosing her as symbol of hope.
Believing that one day both she and her goddess will be able to redeem their Brother.
Currently I am struggling between shield and weapon, because I would like mostly to protect instead of harming people, even if they are bad people.
In this situation i truly miss a wider set of preferred weapons.
Also because it seems that for a stroke of luck all the divinities have a different preferred weapon... how conveniente...
K1 wrote:
I was in the same spot.
My character embraced the path of redempion because got betrayed by her own brother, and that's the reason she felt a deep connection with shelyn, choosing her as symbol of hope.
Believing that one day both she and her goddess will be able to redeem their Brother.
Currently I am struggling between shield and weapon, because I would like mostly to protect instead of harming people, even if they are bad people.
In this situation i truly miss a wider set of preferred weapons.
Also because it seems that for a stroke of luck all the divinities have a different preferred weapon... how conveniente...
If a person doesn't know if they want to use shields or not, and doesn't care about favored weapons, the Bastard Sword is a good choice. It doesn't have any other traits, but being able to change from 1 to 2 hands is nice for the indecisive player. I'm still considering it myself, as my game has yet to start.
Sapient wrote: K1 wrote:
I was in the same spot.
My character embraced the path of redempion because got betrayed by her own brother, and that's the reason she felt a deep connection with shelyn, choosing her as symbol of hope.
Believing that one day both she and her goddess will be able to redeem their Brother.
Currently I am struggling between shield and weapon, because I would like mostly to protect instead of harming people, even if they are bad people.
In this situation i truly miss a wider set of preferred weapons.
Also because it seems that for a stroke of luck all the divinities have a different preferred weapon... how conveniente...
If a person doesn't know if they want to use shields or not, and doesn't care about favored weapons, the Bastard Sword is a good choice. It doesn't have any other traits, but being able to change from 1 to 2 hands is nice for the indecisive player. I'm still considering it myself, as my game has yet to start. Consider also the possibility of a shifting rune on your glaive. It could be a spiked glove and become whatever you want.
And as a spiked glove it would be useful for every athetics check.
Honestly, I would like to swap from shield to glaive, in order to be versatile in terms of dps and offense.
Being able to deal only 1d4 or 1d6 with shield wouldn't be a problem.
K1 wrote:
Consider also the possibility of a shifting rune on your glaive. It could be a spiked glove and become whatever you want.
And as a spiked glove it would be useful for every athetics check.
Honestly, I would like to swap from shield to glaive, in order to be versatile in terms of dps and offense.
Being able to deal only 1d4 or 1d6 with shield wouldn't be a problem.
Shifting requires the weapon use the same number of hands. I wonder if a bastard sword would allow all melee weapons.
Shifting also says the weapon must have a "similar form". I take that to mean it has to keep the same number of hands, but who knows?
Thinking more about the Blade Divine Ally. The list of runes you select from is pretty solid. But how often will you know what kind of foes you will be facing? Ghost Touch, for example, can be vital in a fight. But do you typically have forewarning that you will need it?
I guess Shifting will be the default, as it at least allows you to change between damage types.
Sapient wrote: Thinking more about the Blade Divine Ally. The list of runes you select from is pretty solid. But how often will you know what kind of foes you will be facing? Ghost Touch, for example, can be vital in a fight. But do you typically have forewarning that you will need it?
I guess Shifting will be the default, as it at least allows you to change between damage types.
Well, you get to switch daily.
So depending on where you are and what are your objectives, you can easily adapt it.
It's usually pretty telltale when you go to fight Undead.
And if it's not a "dedicated undead" area but just 1-2 random encounter ones, then you don't lose much if for just 1-2 fights you don't have the "optimal" rune.
Later on, Holy and Flaming are also pretty solid for "default" option.
Too much of an investement.
While the first rank is a critical specialization for any weapon ( you can change it daily ) and a shifting rune, which is always useful.
The higher ranks could be used for something better ( second ally or dedication feats ).
K1 wrote: Too much of an investement.
While the first rank is a critical specialization for any weapon ( you can change it daily ) and a shifting rune, which is always useful.
The higher ranks could be used for something better ( second ally or dedication feats ).
Instrument of Zeal (Rune 16) and Radiant Blade Master (Rune 20)are not that exciting. But I generally like the earlier options.
Looking at Shield Ally, the base power is very nice. Shield warden at 6 requires the champion to remain adjacent to an ally to use. Shield of Reckoning at 10 is better. Shield Paragon at 20 is great.
And Steed Ally: These are all fine for an build that makes good use of an animal companion or a mount. Celestial Mount at 20 is pretty fun.
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