Champion offense / defense discussion.

[Soulboundx]

Hey everyone,

Saw that the Champion was different (in a good way) from the playtest and was looking to ask about how the offensive options look for the Champion. Mainly, are the Litanies at useful compared to similar feat, Smite Evil worth passing up AoO, etc.

And yes, at this point most know the default "Choose flickmace" let's pass on that one.

To me so far, Smite Evil is only reliable for 4 damage. Foes can have some wild "Non-attack" options at their disposal. Litany of Righteousness seems good but s later levels, until it is seen to be competing with Divine Reflexes and some pretty awesome flavor auras.

Of course this is my first impression, just started playing at level one and wanted to see where I could go with Champion.

[shroudb]

Smite evil is awesome imo.

it's a flat +4/6 to damage, which you can usually set for at least 2 hits in, which is far from bad, and it forces things to attack you, or else they both extend the duration AND you probably get a 3rd attack in via paladin*

As far as litanies go, Litany against Wrath is amazing damage wise, and it has amazing scaling as well, so it's useful forever. Litaby of righteousness paired with aura of righteousness is equally amazing

But I don't particulary like Litany of Sloth, i find it weak.

For pure offense, Paladins (obviously, since they have the most offensive reaction) can imo put the hurt into things

If you want pure damage, you can multiclass either in monk, for monastic weapons+flurry (2 attacks in 1 action while holding a shield), or ranger for twin takedown (again 2 attacks in 1 action, but requires setting up with hunt and requires 2 weapons, but it gives you much greater weapon options compared to monastic weapons imo)

blade of justice seems interesting for a two-handed paladin. 2 extra dices and persistent, is about 2d12+ 4 persistent (so around +12) for the cost of an extra action. On paper it looks good. Just not sure with how action starved a champion is if you'll be able to use it frequently.

Ranged paladin, again usually with ranger MC is also a rally good attack, and it's an extra pain for your opponent to be the one to have to come to you or else they'll keep suffering your reactions and your smite.

*For smite action economy, look at it this way:
let's say you move, smite, and attack.
if the enemy chases after an ally, it means you don't need to setup for it again, so you can move and get 2 strikes in with it active.
if the enemy does NOT go after an ally of yours, but stays to fight you, then it means next round you don't have to move, so you can smite and do 2 attacks again.

So, basically, once you setup it, you either force an opponent to keep taking 3 smite attacks per turn if he goes after your allies, or to take 2 smite attacks per turn but he's forced to attack you.

the only other alternative, is for him to strike you, and then go away. But you don't really care if a melee combatant spends his actions getting away from the party, since that buys you time to finish off the rest of the enemies imo.

On this, a note on positioning, the party HAS to work alongside the champion if they want to benefit from your reactions, you can't forever chase after the barbarian that charges forward just because.

so your overall performance also depends on how your party cooperates with you.

[Soulboundx]

The smite explaination, was thinking almost 1 per encounter etc and had to realize "Oh wait this is one action anytime" reading that XD.

Any thoughts on the choices as compared to some of these feats? (Such as the Divine Reflexes)

[Kyrone]

Zeal Domain Weapon Surge is good offense wise and +1 to hit.

Vengeance Oath let you use Lay on Hands on any enemy if it have hit an ally and gives a nasty -2AC debuff.

Because Champion have divine spell attack and DC their cantrips of that tradition scales automatically to master, so divine sorcerer dedication plus adapted cantrip can give you Eletric Arc.

[shroudb]

Soulboundx wrote:

The smite explaination, was thinking almost 1 per encounter etc and had to realize "Oh wait this is one action anytime" reading that XD.

Any thoughts on the choices as compared to some of these feats? (Such as the Divine Reflexes)

it depends on the party really.

i've posted this before on a "fun" hammer throwing paladin build, but it generally is true for all builds:

shroudb wrote:

Level 12: Aura of Faith/Divine Wall (offense/defense, party dependent)
Level 14: Litany of Righteousness/Divine Reflexes (offense/offense+defense, party dependent)
Level 16: Zeal

Litany of Righteousness is only worth it if you pick up Aura of Faith, and you should generally favor this option if your party has plenty of melees.
Else, go for Wall+Divine reflexes, making it extra hard to target your allies, and simultaneously hard to get to you.
Criticals with Zeal are just ridiculous, no save slow 1+prone is insane, plus, the extra damage die never hurts

divine reflexes on a paladin is a mix of offense and defense.

litany+aura in a heavy melee party will net you more damage, but it really depends if your party can capitalize on said weakness, if it's just like 1 melee alongside you, better go for Divine reflexes.

I would personally never go for AoO, i like using a shield on champions, and that means that i already have a reaction if they hit me, or if they hit one of my allies. No need for another reaction imo.

[Edge93]

shroudb wrote:

blade of justice seems interesting for a two-handed paladin. 2 extra dices and persistent, is about 2d12+ 4 persistent (so around +12) for the cost of an extra action. On paper it looks good. Just not sure with how action starved a champion is if you'll be able to use it frequently.

Quick note on this, unless I misunderstand something it's a bit stronger than that. 2d12 averages 13, so assuming one proc of persistent it's an average of +17 damage for one action if you're using a d12 weapon, more if there's multiple procs on the persistent.

[shroudb]

Edge93 wrote:

shroudb wrote:

blade of justice seems interesting for a two-handed paladin. 2 extra dices and persistent, is about 2d12+ 4 persistent (so around +12) for the cost of an extra action. On paper it looks good. Just not sure with how action starved a champion is if you'll be able to use it frequently.

Quick note on this, unless I misunderstand something it's a bit stronger than that. 2d12 averages 13, so assuming one proc of persistent it's an average of +17 damage for one action if you're using a d12 weapon, more if there's multiple procs on the persistent.

the "+12 average" was just referring to the +4 persistent, since on average it takes 3 ticks before it gets removed if the opponent does nothing (and what can you do against "holy? wash yourself in miasma?)

[Ubertron_X]

shroudb wrote:

Edge93 wrote:

the "+12 average" was just referring to the +4 persistent, since on average it takes 3 ticks before it gets removed if the opponent does nothing (and what can you do against "holy? wash yourself in miasma?)

Cursing and swearing and reciting unholy texts / blasphemy? Something like this

[Edge93]

shroudb wrote:

Edge93 wrote:

shroudb wrote:

blade of justice seems interesting for a two-handed paladin. 2 extra dices and persistent, is about 2d12+ 4 persistent (so around +12) for the cost of an extra action. On paper it looks good. Just not sure with how action starved a champion is if you'll be able to use it frequently.

Quick note on this, unless I misunderstand something it's a bit stronger than that. 2d12 averages 13, so assuming one proc of persistent it's an average of +17 damage for one action if you're using a d12 weapon, more if there's multiple procs on the persistent.

the "+12 average" was just referring to the +4 persistent, since on average it takes 3 ticks before it gets removed if the opponent does nothing (and what can you do against "holy? wash yourself in miasma?)

Ahh, I see. I thought it was including the dice too.

Yeah, Blade of Justice is pretty strong in theory.

[Sayt]

A lot of fiends have weakness to good damage, and some double up: the
Barbazu has weakness 5, three ticks of persistent damage adds +15.

The Pit Giend has weakness 15 to good, and regeneration 30, turned off by good damage, and the Balor has Weakness 20, +60 from three ticks!

Litany of righteousness also gives weakness 7-10 for a round.