Thrash

[Xeall]

Hi guys,

Quick couple of questions regarding Thrash

Requirements You have a foe grabbed.
You thrash the grabbed foe around. It takes bludgeoning damage equal to your Strength modifier plus your ferocious specialization damage plus your Rage damage. The foe must attempt a basic Fortitude save against your class DC.

1) it says add “ferocious specialisation” but I can’t find anything by that name in the book. Even tried search function on PDF and comes up with nothing. Do we know what extra damage it refers to?

2) it says at the end the foe must attempt a basic fort save, but without specifying that it’s against the damage. Is there meant to be a secondary effect? As you can still attack with your free hand during combat, unless the enemy has a silly high AC, I can’t see the reason to use it for a barb, as damage would be less than a good hit in the face with a one handed weapon.

[rayous brightblade]

im pretty sure 1) is the rage specialization of your instinct.
2) whenever its a basic save its for the damage, You would use this as it doesn’t suffer from multi attack penalty

[Paradozen]

Reason to use thrash is, in part, because the basic fortitude save means the grabbed foe takes damage even on a successful save, while striking a second time (probably with MAP, because any way of grabbing someone is an attack) does nothing on a failure.

Basic saves mean you save against the damage.
Crit Success: No damage
Success: Half damage
Failure: Normal damage
Crit Failure: Double damage.

[breithauptclan]

It might also be that they misspelled 'weapon specialization'. Probably a leftover from an earlier unpublished iteration where the name was class specific.

[Castilliano]

I found the wording strange too, especially since they seem to be talking about the same pool of damage from Rage (albeit improved by some Instincts if you convert to a different damage type).

Thrash is automatic damage (unless they get a critical save).
If you're hitting them easily enough, don't Thrash, but as Rayous pointed out, if your MAP is high, Thrash.

There's a Fighter Press Feat, Combat Grab, (one action) where you automatically grab if you hit on your Strike and have a hand free.
So action one: Any non-Press one action attack.
Action two: Combat Grab
Action three: Thrash for auto-damage since your MAP is -10 (since why would you be using Agile w/ Rage).
And you still have them grabbed.

Combat Grab is only a level 2 feat, so easy to MCD to pick up.
(Barbs don't get much from Fighter Dedication so hopefully there are other feats to pick up to make it worthwhile.)

If your Rage damage triggers a Weakness (like Spirit vs. Undead or Dragon-fire vs. Frost Giants), that's good auto-bonus damage.
If you have a one-hand/two-hand weapon like a Bastard Sword, your first swing could be that, then let go and Combat Grab.

None of this is worth building toward since the damage is modest unless you're already building a Barbarian grappler. Then Thrash is decent addition. "I've got him Restrained, now what do I do?"

Note that none of that involved an Athletics checks, which I find peculiar.

[Quandary]

Quote:

Action three: Thrash for auto-damage since your MAP is -10 (since why would you be using Agile w/ Rage).

(Developer) SRMF commented that skill "maneuvers" with "Req: one hand free" are intended to be "delivered" via UAS, specifically affirming they have Finesse trait, by which I assume he assumes they use UAS:Fist, in effect granting the Trip, Disarm, Shove, Grapple Traits, and default UAS Fist has Agile trait... so if you are making Grapple attack, it is probably with Agile weapon (UAS/Fist) which would have better MAP but less Rage damage bonus. I'm not sure how other UAS (from stances, nat attacks) figure into that, if they would also de facto gain all "maneuver" traits or what (Animal Instinct attacks do list SOME maneuvers for each, stances not any). I'm just working off SRMF Facebook comment, and this area clearly needs Errata work, but IMHO it is reasonable to assume normal Grapples will usually be done with Agile weapon at this point. Although I also find it a bit odd that a iconic Barbarian ability ends up using the lesser rage damage bonus for apparently non-Barbarian-iconic Agile weapons. (Ape, Shark, and Snake Instincts do have non-Agile UAS with Grapple trait that could enable full Rage damage bonus, but those are clearly exceptional cases)

This is thread where that was mentioned/discussed:
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42q22?re-Debates-on-if-TripShoveetc-Traits-plu s#14

[Xeall]

Are we then assuming the answer to the first question is simply add proficiency? Str+instinct isn’t very much damage at all if Prof is not included

[shroudb]

Xeall wrote:

Are we then assuming the answer to the first question is simply add proficiency? Str+instinct isn’t very much damage at all if Prof is not included

it's fine damage for not requiring an attack roll (hence without the -10)

it's something to do with your third action if you're a grappler barbarian.

[Edge93]

Xeall wrote:

Are we then assuming the answer to the first question is simply add proficiency? Str+instinct isn’t very much damage at all if Prof is not included

Why would you add your proficiency? It never says anything to that effects, and that would be ridiculous. It could potentially be better than an actual weapon attack.

As for the specialization thing, it refers to what's either called your ferocious specialization or your instinct specialization, I forget which. In either case, it's the augment to your rage damage you get when you get Weapon Specialization/Greater.

So it does your Str mod plus your rage damage, essentially. It's weaker than a weapon attack (it'd be BROKEN if it wasn't), but much more reliable due to the saving throw aspect and the lack of MAP.

Also Collateral Thrash later is fun.

[Redblade8]

So is the consensus interpretation that, where it says "ferocious specialization", this is referring to the bonus damage from Weapon Specialization (with possible extra damage from your instinct, like if I'm draconic (red), it gets extra fire damage)?

Thanks,
Ghorrin Redblade

[Vlorax]

Redblade8 wrote:

So is the consensus interpretation that, where it says "ferocious specialization", this is referring to the bonus damage from Weapon Specialization (with possible extra damage from your instinct, like if I'm draconic (red), it gets extra fire damage)?

Thanks,
Ghorrin Redblade

Yes

[Syries]

I did the math though. The damage just doesn't seem worthwhile for the feat. Using the example of a dragon instinct barbarian you're doing Str+Weapon Specialization+Rage. At level 8 that's 14 damage with a basic fort save. If they save it's a mere 7.

As opposed to a +1 striking greatsword dealing 2d12+14. Way more damage. Sure you have to consider MAP and if you're striking at -10 it might be more worthwhile to trash for at least something but imo there are other better single actions out there than doing 7 or even 14 dmg.

[shroudb]

Syries wrote:

I did the math though. The damage just doesn't seem worthwhile for the feat. Using the example of a dragon instinct barbarian you're doing Str+Weapon Specialization+Rage. At level 8 that's 14 damage with a basic fort save. If they save it's a mere 7.

As opposed to a +1 striking greatsword dealing 2d12+14. Way more damage. Sure you have to consider MAP and if you're striking at -10 it might be more worthwhile to trash for at least something but imo there are other better single actions out there than doing 7 or even 14 dmg.

assuming you hit your first attack on a 10, the -10 will make it a 20.

your opponent will be grabbed, since that's the condition for the thrash.

so you will need a 18 to hit with the 3rd attack.

that's 10% to hit and 5% to crit.
so 2d12+14 (27) means an average of 5,4 damage

assuming your opponent makes the save half the time, Thrash will do an average of 10,5 damage

so, there's definitely merit on the feat.

as for "better actions", it depends. 10 average damage is not a shabby 3rd action at all.

[Edge93]

Yeah, I'll definitely take doing ~1/2 sword damage in exchange for not having the massive miss chance from MAP and for the near-guarantee of doing 1/4 sword damage even if they make the save (and consider that them making the save is roughly analogous to you missing a strike [which does nothing], if a tad more likely when MAP isn't involved).

TL;DR as a third "attack" it's certainly better, and it's perhaps competitive even as a second attack depending on the foe.

[Quandary]

Yeah, seems clearly about trading Miss=Nothing for PassSave=Partial dynamic.
I don't think Syries actually did the math on average damage, accounting for chance of success.
Yeah... When you bother to note "If they Save, that's 1/2", you kind of need to account for "If you Miss, that's ZERO".