I don't think there a way to have more than 4 minions at the same time in PF2 right now.
But just so you don't get your hopes up, Kingmaker second edition is scheduled to be released by December 2020. That's quite a ways off and you might not even run into this problem because you're finished with the campaign (or that undead replacement party is already dead and replaced) before the 2nd edition version is available.
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I don't think its too bad that a Undead Army needs generals to command it. For me it adds to the flavour and gives the players opportunity for fun roleplay with their undead subordinates.
One general per 4 soldiers is a pretty high ratio though. That's a lot of subordinate casters. Even in PF1 the hit die limits meant true armies were basically impossible without an absurd number of high-level subordinates commanding them. A 20th level character could have 80 1 hd skeletons or zombies. Hardly an army. Tar Baphon required a unique mythic ability to ignore the limit. Sentient undead are both easier and harder. Since they're not directly controlled, there is no limit, but they can also tell you to pound sand.
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Much like PF1, you create a handful of undead minions that are actually useful, just they are much less useful in combat in PF2. I think that's a good thing. I once GM'd for a party with a fast zombie dire tiger and a skeletal t-rex at one point. Those two eclipsed the martials for several levels.
The real key to the create undead ritual, is you can read it as 'create friendly NPC' ritual. Having an army of friendly and helpful intelligent ghouls sounds much more like an army creating necromancer than someone who has a few dozen skeletons with tower shields pretending to be a wall of ____ spell.
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First you need to find a nice necromancer, then as you begin falling in love with each other, one night you can say “hey... want to raise a family together?”
They seem to deliberately want "army of minions" to not be an option.
And I'm very okay with that.
You can make a huge army of undead, you're just not going to control them all.
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Two things.
First, in PF2 you *can* have an army of zombies. If you get the crit success you need to make it a minion, you can instead make it helpful (if intelligent) or give it a command (if unintelligent). And in the latter case the command can be something like “move in the direction anyone wearing *this* symbol on their clothes points to, and attack anyone they flip-off”. Dress yourself and your captains appropriately, and viola! You have your army of zombies.
Second, given the HD limitations on how many undead you could control in PF1, you couldn’t really have an *army* of zombies in PF1. So if anything, it’s easier to have an army of zombies in PF2 than in PF1.
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Two things.
First, in PF2 you *can* have an army of zombies. If you get the crit success you need to make it a minion, you can instead make it helpful (if intelligent) or give it a command (if unintelligent). And in the latter case the command can be something like “move in the direction anyone wearing *this* symbol on their clothes points to, and attack anyone they flip-off”. Dress yourself and your captains appropriately, and viola! You have your army of zombies.
Second, given the HD limitations on how many undead you could control in PF1, you couldn’t really have an *army* of zombies in PF1. So if anything, it’s easier to have an army of zombies in PF2 than in PF1.
Also, I'm pretty sure you hit auto-crit success at making weak undead pretty quickly.
The mindless undead might be an issue, being mindless and all.
But everything with a mind should be doable, the more lawful the better.
One way in PF2 is to make master vampires who then can control a number of vampire spawn subject to GM's ruling. It's in the rules that there are no strict rules for how many minions they can have.
And with fast healing & zero fatigue, that's one durable army.
All they need to do is find places to lay low during the day. Tunnels?
Or if Shadows are an option, let them spawn at will.
Hmm...starting to see a limit to nights.
Villages might start bunkering in hallowed areas undead can't enter, then going on the offense during the day.
A major question is, how much of a country do they want left?
They may even spark a crusade!
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Also, I'm pretty sure you hit auto-crit success at making weak undead pretty quickly.
Going by the DCs under Game Mastering, this is very much a no.
At the ritual’s culmination, you must attempt the skill check listed in the Primary Check entry to determine the ritual’s outcome. Primary checks usually have a very hard DC for a level that’s twice the ritual’s spell level.
For the lowest level of undead, the ritual is 2nd level and thus the DC is that of a very hard 4th level spell, meaning DC 28 (23+5).
To crit succeed and get a minion out of it, you'd need to make a 38 on Arcana/Occult/Religion while your secondary caster needs a 23 Religion check (difficulty: standard 4th) to avoid penalizing you.
That's... level 15, legendary in the skill of choice, and with a 20 in Int, along with Assurance, to guarantee a level 1 minion out of the ritual.
I really hope I'm missing something in the ritual rules...
Also, I'm pretty sure you hit auto-crit success at making weak undead pretty quickly.Going by the DCs under Game Mastering, this is very much a no.
At the ritual’s culmination, you must attempt the skill check listed in the Primary Check entry to determine the ritual’s outcome. Primary checks usually have a very hard DC for a level that’s twice the ritual’s spell level.For the lowest level of undead, the ritual is 2nd level and thus the DC is that of a very hard 4th level spell, meaning DC 28 (23+5).
To crit succeed and get a minion out of it, you'd need to make a 38 on Arcana/Occult/Religion while your secondary caster needs a 23 Religion check (difficulty: standard 4th) to avoid penalizing you.
That's... level 15, legendary in the skill of choice, and with a 20 in Int, along with Assurance, to guarantee a level 1 minion out of the ritual.
I really hope I'm missing something in the ritual rules...
I'm just replying to say how awesome your name is, Runelord Apologist.
Instead of Divine Command Theory, it's Arcane. :)
Also, I'm pretty sure you hit auto-crit success at making weak undead pretty quickly.Going by the DCs under Game Mastering, this is very much a no.
At the ritual’s culmination, you must attempt the skill check listed in the Primary Check entry to determine the ritual’s outcome. Primary checks usually have a very hard DC for a level that’s twice the ritual’s spell level.For the lowest level of undead, the ritual is 2nd level and thus the DC is that of a very hard 4th level spell, meaning DC 28 (23+5).
To crit succeed and get a minion out of it, you'd need to make a 38 on Arcana/Occult/Religion while your secondary caster needs a 23 Religion check (difficulty: standard 4th) to avoid penalizing you.
That's... level 15, legendary in the skill of choice, and with a 20 in Int, along with Assurance, to guarantee a level 1 minion out of the ritual.
I really hope I'm missing something in the ritual rules...
If you use Assurance you don’t add your attribute, so it’s worse than you think.
Also, I'm pretty sure you hit auto-crit success at making weak undead pretty quickly.Going by the DCs under Game Mastering, this is very much a no.
At the ritual’s culmination, you must attempt the skill check listed in the Primary Check entry to determine the ritual’s outcome. Primary checks usually have a very hard DC for a level that’s twice the ritual’s spell level.For the lowest level of undead, the ritual is 2nd level and thus the DC is that of a very hard 4th level spell, meaning DC 28 (23+5).
To crit succeed and get a minion out of it, you'd need to make a 38 on Arcana/Occult/Religion while your secondary caster needs a 23 Religion check (difficulty: standard 4th) to avoid penalizing you.
That's... level 15, legendary in the skill of choice, and with a 20 in Int, along with Assurance, to guarantee a level 1 minion out of the ritual.
I really hope I'm missing something in the ritual rules...
I was reading it as regular level DC instead of spell level DC, but I can see that not being the intent.
Going by that lower level DC I think you would succeed with assurance by level, and crit succeed on a... 11 or 12 if you roll by level 10.
So, probably the intent was for the spell DCs not the DC by level. That does make it much harder.
"A very hard DC for a level that's twice the spells level" would mean you double the spell's level and check Table 10-5 for that level's DC, then add +5 for a Very Hard check. Doubling the Spell Level before doubling it again to get a Level 8 DC makes no sense. If that were the case, Level 5 Rituals would have a Primary DC of 45, making it impossible for anyone to actually cast until several levels after they gained access to it.
Also, I'm pretty sure you hit auto-crit success at making weak undead pretty quickly.Going by the DCs under Game Mastering, this is very much a no.
At the ritual’s culmination, you must attempt the skill check listed in the Primary Check entry to determine the ritual’s outcome. Primary checks usually have a very hard DC for a level that’s twice the ritual’s spell level.For the lowest level of undead, the ritual is 2nd level and thus the DC is that of a very hard 4th level spell, meaning DC 28 (23+5).
To crit succeed and get a minion out of it, you'd need to make a 38 on Arcana/Occult/Religion while your secondary caster needs a 23 Religion check (difficulty: standard 4th) to avoid penalizing you.
That's... level 15, legendary in the skill of choice, and with a 20 in Int, along with Assurance, to guarantee a level 1 minion out of the ritual.
I really hope I'm missing something in the ritual rules...
I feel like saying "Not being able to build a literal army of undead so easily it becomes rote before high levels is a problem" feels strange to me. Yeah the Whispering Tyrant was kind of a big deal.
Also, you don't need Assurance for this. A success still gives you a friendly creature and a critical failure gives you a a hostile one. In the case of the latter, you can instantly obliterate it with a single cantrip. Which is also a good reason for the friendly undead to hear you out and consider joining your army and feasting on whatever undead you bring it's way. All you're really risking is losing a little onyx and time, and clearly neither of those is an issue if you're making an army.
You could also just rely on making a high level vampire and then having it dominate intelligent undead. That's an at will ability and I don't see why they can't do that forever.
Okay, there's some oddities here.
At the ritual’s culmination, you must attempt the skill
check listed in the Primary Check entry to determine the
ritual’s outcome. Primary checks usually have a very hard
DC for a level that’s twice the ritual’s spell level.
I think this was actually an error in editing, because table 10-5 already includes rules for level based checks involving spell level instead of character level.
When you’re determining a skill DC based on something
that has a level, use Table 10–5 to set the DC. Find the
level of the subject, and assign the corresponding DC. Since
spells use a 1–10 scale, use the Spell Level column for them.
The only difference being the spell DCs use the DC for the level at which a caster obtains spells of that level, instead of double the spell level (which is always one level higher).
So, casting a level 2 ritual by RAW should be the level 4 DC, not the level 4 Spell DC (which is actually a level 7 DC).
Applying the modifier for being a creation ritual, the check should be DC 24.
You need to be level 8 (10 + 8 lvl + 6 Master) to get a success with assurance. And either 16 or 18 to get a crit success with assurance depending if you advanced the skill to legendary.
At that level, assuming no item bonuses, you only need a 16 to get a crit success.
So, level 8 is the level you can create a friendly army of ghouls, or unleash a horde of zombies on an unsuspecting town.
However, getting a max level minion requires spending gold and hoping for a nat 20. There might be a level or two where a 19 works with an item bonus, but I doubt it.
TL;DR - friendly undead army = easy. Undead minions = uselessly low level, or nat 20's only.
“assuming no item bonuses” you can’t apply those to Assurance, either. Zero penalties or bonuses, just 10 plus proficiency.
“assuming no item bonuses” you can’t apply those to Assurance, either. Zero penalties or bonuses, just 10 plus proficiency.
I was considering the likelihood of rolling a crit success at the level where assurance is a regular success.
The point bears repeating though.
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For the record, the reading that it wants you to double the Spell Level and then use the new Spell Level for determining the DC essentially makes it twice the level it's supposed to be. Think about it for a minute. How are you supposed to get the DC for Level 6+ rituals? There are no Level 12+ spells.
As an example of just how silly this gets, a Level 5 Ritual would require a DC44 check based on the Spell DC table (+5 for Very Hard). The very best ritual caster at Level 9 has a +20 (Master 15 + 4 stat + 1 item) and only passes the primary check on a Nat 20, and only a normal success since they otherwise would've failed. To get a higher chance of success, at least 3 Secondary Casters need to Critically Succeed a DC39 check, which is so incredibly difficult as to be nearly impossible. That is clearly not the intended difficulty.
If you do exactly what the quoted rules text for rituals says, you would double the Spell Level (5 x 2) and use a Very Hard DC for that level. Not for that spell level, for that level. In that case, you would use a Very Hard Level 10 DC, which is just DC32 for the primary caster and DC27 for the secondaries. That is far more in line with the expected difficulty of checks at that level.
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Yeah, as LuniasM says, they never say use the Spell Level table for Rituals. So you don't.
You use the normal Level table, like for anything else. Meaning a 2nd level Ritual is DC 24 (19 from level 4 on the table, +5 for being Very Hard).
This doesn't matter much for purposes of auto-succeeding in this specific case, but the rules mistake you are making is pretty fundamental error on how Rituals are supposed to work.
Uh...they never say use the Spell Level table for Rituals. So you don't.
You use the normal Level table, like for anything else. Meaning a 2nd level Ritual is DC 24 (19 from level 4 on the table, +5 for being Very Hard).
This doesn't matter much for purposes of auto-succeeding in this specific case, but the rules mistake you are making is pretty fundamental error on how Rituals are supposed to work.
Not sure if you're agreeing with me or replying to me?
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Very carefully, and with adult supervision.
Not sure if you're agreeing with me or replying to me?I clarified my wording, I'm agreeing. :)
Lol thanks :D