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If one member of the party has a 75% chance to successfully sneak, two more party members have 60%, and Clanky the Champion has 45%, the odds of all four of you succeeding are 75% * 60 % * 60% * 45% = 12.15%. If only Clanky needs to succeed, the party's odds are now 45%.
If you can get away with splitting the party and having only the stealthiest character creep forward, then not using Quiet Allies makes sense, but if everyone is moving together then it increases your odds dramatically.
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"You’re skilled at moving with a group. When you are Avoiding
Notice and your allies Follow the Expert, you and those allies can
roll a single Stealth check, using the lowest modifier, instead of
rolling separately. This doesn’t apply for initiative rolls."
Does this mean that you are following the worst person and not the expert if the modifier is is not based on the expert's modifier?
I imagine this effect similar to like a cartoon where everyone is caught at once in spot light instead of just the one who is poor at stealth? since everyone is banking on the lowest modifier.
Please provide some clarification/fix for this feat...
You are still following the expert. Everyone, including the person with the lowest modifier, gets the circumstance bonus and can add their level if untrained.
The benefit of this feat is that ONLY the lowest person has to roll, instead of the lowest person plus the rest of the party. That's very good. With or without the feat the worst person still has to roll stealth and they are the most likely person to get spotted.
The difference is that without this feat everyone else has to roll too, and the more people roll the more likely it is that someone gets an unlucky Nat 1. And in this scenario one person being spotted is usually just as bad as the whole party being spotted in the sense that you are gonna have to roll iniative and fight. (Though even if the noisy Ally is spotted, everyone still rolls stealth for initiative and the rest of the party can potentially start the combat hidden.)
If you have two equally noisy people this basically doubles your odds of success, and even if everyone else is sneaky you still remove the chance for any of them to roll low and blow it for everyone. Making a single roll is also really nice because you can reroll it at the cost of only a single hero point. But if two people fail the check they would both have to burn a hero point.
That makes sense. Still feels weird though.
Especially with the interaction with Initiative.
What exactly happens come time to roll Initiative? Only the leader with Quiet Allies starts combat concealed because everyone else has to roll Perception for Initiative because they weren't Avoiding Notice like the leader?
Confusing!
(Necro'd the thread because everyone in our party has Stealth and the ranger just took Quiet Allies for his 3rd-level feat. Come tomorrow morning, we're going to have to have this figured out.)
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Eh? A character following the expert (which you are when you use Quiet Allies) gets their level+2 to the roll regardless of whether they were trained. So a level 3 character with no dexterity investment has +5 to the check, which is enough to beat the DC 15 perception DC of a level 3 ogre 55% of the time. Now, your odds will vary based on the perception bonus of what you're trying to avoid, which makes it harder to sneak past a boss, but it is also easier to sneak by a whole camp of things below your level.
And if your clanky character has lower odds than 45%, your odds of the whole group drop as well. So comparing 25% to 12.5% is bogus.
That makes sense. Still feels weird though.
Especially with the interaction with Initiative.
What exactly happens come time to roll Initiative? Only the leader with Quiet Allies starts combat concealed because everyone else has to roll Perception for Initiative because they weren't Avoiding Notice like the leader?
Confusing!
(Necro'd the thread because everyone in our party has Stealth and the ranger just took Quiet Allies for his 3rd-level feat. Come tomorrow morning, we're going to have to have this figured out.)
No. Everyone rolls stealth for initiative and can be potentially unnoticed at the start of combat. Everyone is using Avoid Notice-- or more accurately, Follow the Expert to Avoid Notice. It is just only one person needs to roll to determine if you are noticed and initiative needs to be rolled at all. Once you get spotted, everyone rolls stealth for initiative as normal.
The confusing stuff is how Warden's Step and Foil Senses interact with such tactics.
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What's also nice is you'd only have to use one stealth buff item on the low guy: for instance, one Quicksilver Mutagen for everyone's rolls or pass them a Clandestine Cloak to invest. And as it's a single roll, things like Halfling Luck would let affect the whole parties single roll.
Now, the normal rule for Avoid Notice is that you roll once and it can be used as your initiative when an encounter starts, yes?
But if someone is using Quiet Allies, then you might need to roll Stealth twice if you're the low mod character? Once for initiative and once for determining if you're actually hidden?
What's also nice is you'd only have to use one stealth buff item on the low guy: for instance, one Quicksilver Mutagen for everyone's rolls or pass them a Clandestine Cloak to invest. And as it's a single roll, things like Halfling Luck would let affect the whole parties single roll.
Be careful when doing this, I believe you calculate any bonuses added to anyone's check before determining who has the lowest overall "modifier" in regards to Quiet Allies.
This step is simple. Add up all the various modifiers,
bonuses, and penalties you identified in Step 1—this is
your total modifier. Next add that to the number that came
up on your d20 roll. This total is your check result.
While any modifier would just raise the lowest possible number, you would ideally want to apply any stealth bonus to as many of the lowest modifier characters as possible to give you the "best" possible bonus.
For example. Your party has the following stealth modifiers in descending order:
15, 13, 9, 8.
If you applied a +2 bonus to the person with the 8, you would raise their modifier above 9 meaning that you would just use the 9.
Basically you would want to find the mix of bonuses that would give you the absolute best possible "lowest" modifier, and that could include bonuses to multiple characters. And that would all depend on the exact party makeup we are talking about, and any penalties they may be taking from gear or other sources.
Wouldn't you just use the +8 modifier, which is effectively a +10 modifier with the +2 bonus from Follow the Expert?
Wouldn't you just use the +8 modifier, which is effectively a +10 modifier with the +2 bonus from Follow the Expert?
Nope. I quoted the relevant section. Your Total Modifier for a check is the sum of your Ability Modifier, Proficiency bonus and any bonuses and penalties you may have at the time, including circumstance or untyped penalties.
Edit: You would even add the Circumstance bonus from the expert that you are following to the totals, but since that is the same for every character, it wouldn't change much. In a certain party scheme, this circumstance bonus could even lead to using the "expert" that you are following, if the bonus that every other character got happened to raise their modifier above his.
Wouldn't you just use the +8 modifier, which is effectively a +10 modifier with the +2 bonus from Follow the Expert?Nope. I quoted the relevant section. Your Total Modifier for a check is the sum of your Ability Modifier, Proficiency bonus and any bonuses and penalties you may have at the time, including circumstance or untyped penalties.
Edit: You would even add the Circumstance bonus from the expert that you are following to the totals, but since that is the same for every character, it wouldn't change much. In a certain party scheme, this circumstance bonus could even lead to using the "expert" that you are following, if the bonus that every other character got happened to raise their modifier above his.
Alright, so we start with +15, +13, +9, +8. Let's assume the +15 is the one using Avoid Notice, so he doesn't get the +2. Everyone else is using Follow the Expert, so the final values end up being +15, +15, +11, +10.
+10 is the lowest, so that's what the whole party uses when Quiet Allies is used with everyone cooperating.
If that's not what you meant, then I'm still really confused.
That is what I meant. And if you happened to give the person with the +8 another bonus, say a +2 item bonus to stealth, that raised them above the person with +9, you would instead use the final total of the person with the +9. So 11 assuming that person didn't also have a bonus that raised them above the +8 again.
Basically, total up EVERYTHING for every character, then you roll based on the lowest modifier, no matter where they started. Hence why I said that only buffing the "bottom" character may not be the most "optimal" solution, especially if you are only getting a +1 bonus from a +2 or +3 bonus when doing so.
Ah I see. You're saying not to stack all the buffs on one character, but to spread the buffs at the break point so that none really go to waste.
Well, I suppose some do, but this will get you the highest possible stealth mod for the party.
Sort of a rising tide lifts all boats situation.
Regarding initiative I expect it just means everyone shares the same initiative as that is their avoid notice stealth roll. E.g. one person rolls for and gets a 26, the whole party is now 26 on initiative and chooses what order they act as per the rules.
Regarding when to use it
A party that didn't invest heavily in stealth other one character. E.g.
+5 x3 +9 x1 vs a dc16 perception results in a 98.3% chance of one person failing a stealth roll and being noticed.
Meanwhile quiet allies has a 55% chance of failure, but the whole party is noticed if they do.
Of course you can spend hero points or adjust the roll with modifiers after it has been rolled.
Which then changes it to a 30% chance of failure if a reroll has been used.
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Regarding initiative I expect it just means everyone shares the same initiative as that is their avoid notice stealth roll. E.g. one person rolls for and gets a 26, the whole party is now 26 on initiative and chooses what order they act as per the rules.
Regarding when to use it
A party that didn't invest heavily in stealth other one character. E.g.
+5 x3 +9 x1 vs a dc16 perception results in a 98.3% chance of one person failing a stealth roll and being noticed.
Meanwhile quiet allies has a 55% chance of failure, but the whole party is noticed if they do.
Of course you can spend hero points or adjust the roll with modifiers after it has been rolled.Which then changes it to a 30% chance of failure if a reroll has been used.
No.
You’re skilled at moving with a group. When you are Avoiding Notice and your allies Follow the Expert, you and those allies can roll a single Stealth check, using the lowest modifier, instead of rolling separately. This doesn’t apply for initiative rolls.
The feat explicitly says it doesn't apply for initiative rolls. Everyone makes their own roll as normal. That means you use the default rules, which is that if you are Avoiding Notice when initiative is rolled everyone rolls stealth and compare it to percetion DCs.
The feat explicitly says it doesn't apply for initiative rolls. Everyone makes their own roll as normal. That means you use the default rules, which is that if you are Avoiding Notice when initiative is rolled everyone rolls stealth and compare it to percetion DCs.
Hmmm you are correct, I should have looked up the feat. I imagine this is because it would mean one fortune reroll would be like everyone having a fortune reroll on initiative.
Avoid notice isn't actually run as per usual, but it is close and not that hard to run on closer inspection.
Person with the lowest modifier rolls and sets the stealth score to compare with perception DCs as well as their initiative. Everyone else rolls for initiative.
The benefits of being seen or not as a group remain the same as I originally said though, it is a solid feat for groups that are less stealthy but want the ability to be more reliably stealthy.
Hmmm you are correct, I should have looked up the feat. I imagine this is because it would mean one fortune reroll would be like everyone having a fortune reroll on initiative.
That brings up something one of my players asked me regarding another campaign he is in. Who would be eligible to spend a Hero Point on the "joint roll" given by Quiet Allies? The person with the feat? The Person who's score you end up using? Or anyone from the party?
Obviously only one hero point would be able to be used, but the question was could anyone contribute that point?
The feat explicitly says it doesn't apply for initiative rolls. Everyone makes their own roll as normal. That means you use the default rules, which is that if you are Avoiding Notice when initiative is rolled everyone rolls stealth and compare it to percetion DCs.Hmmm you are correct, I should have looked up the feat. I imagine this is because it would mean one fortune reroll would be like everyone having a fortune reroll on initiative.
Avoid notice isn't actually run as per usual, but it is close and not that hard to run on closer inspection.
Person with the lowest modifier rolls and sets the stealth score to compare with perception DCs as well as their initiative. Everyone else rolls for initiative.
The benefits of being seen or not as a group remain the same as I originally said though, it is a solid feat for groups that are less stealthy but want the ability to be more reliably stealthy.
Sure. But it doesn't preclude the rest of the group from being Unnoticed if the one person rolls badly, is the other point I wanted to make.
Hmmm you are correct, I should have looked up the feat. I imagine this is because it would mean one fortune reroll would be like everyone having a fortune reroll on initiative.That brings up something one of my players asked me regarding another campaign he is in. Who would be eligible to spend a Hero Point on the "joint roll" given by Quiet Allies? The person with the feat? The Person who's score you end up using? Or anyone from the party?
Obviously only one hero point would be able to be used, but the question was could anyone contribute that point?
Probably just the person making the roll, but a kind GM might let the group donate one.