Metamagic Reach Spell vs. Spell Delivery with Familiars.

[Some Kind of Chymist]

The TLDR version first; Is there a mechanical reason to use spell delivery instead of reach spell?

Longer version;
I'm creating a wizard (Human / Animal Whisperer Background) with the Improved Familiar Attunement thesis with the title A Combined Experimental and Theoretical Study on the Magical and Mundane Methods of the Training; for the Purpose of the Delivery of Spells to an Individual that Usually Require Tactile Contact (Excluding the use of Standardised Metamagical Techniques) Between the Primary Caster of the Spell and the Individual to Experience the Magical Effect; of Squirrells and other Small Mammals, with a Paticular Focus on Spells that Fall Within the Purview of the Arcane School of Transmutation. So it is a foregone conclusion I'm going to use spell delivery on that character for flavour reasons. [Recommendations for how to get the ability to talk with animals without MC into druid (I imagine throwing squirrels at your enemies is anthamea to druids (unless in the pursuit of protecting nature i guess) would be appreciated]

But i was wondering if there is any actually mechanical reason (other than maybe saving on a wizard feat) to use spell delivery instead of reach spell? Spell delivery has a shorter distance (25ft speed + attack to touch) and a bigger chance of failure because its a lower modifier when the familiar is doing attack roles.

Either way I'm looking foward to my squirelly wizard.

[masda_gib]

... if your target is buried, your familiar with a Burrow speed can reach it?

Or generally, when you don't have line of sight/effect. You have to see or otherwise sense your target. If the bad guy hides behind a corner, only your familiar can deliver the spell.

[vagrant-poet]

I think the familiar isn't supposed to be as good as Reach Spell, because familiars can do other things, Reach Spell only does this. And it's only a 5 ft. distance. Lots of people get familiars from their subclass for free too.

[NemoNoName]

Also once you start getting more powers for the familiar, you can get more speed out of them. And as people say, it's also around the corner. And my reading implies this doesn't cost you an extra action, but I might be wrong.

[Kyrone]

The familiar have other utility beyond delivering spells, like extra cantrip, battery, focus recovery and so on. What you lose in accuracy of reach spell you gain in versatility.

But you can increase the speed of familiar as well to 40ft with a familiar ability.

[Siro]

Has for how to talk to animals without MC, you could take the Adopted Ancestry general feat (Gnome). From there take the ‘Burrow Elocutionist’ feat (talk to borrowing animals) and then the ‘Animal Elocutionist’ (talk to all animals. My Gnome Bard got these feats so he can Dr. Dolittle out of situations in the wild)

For the back story with Adopted Ancestry, you may have spent a bit of time with Gnomes after your thesis lead you on the track of a Familiar, as Gnomes can be quite familiar with them. (Have a LV1 feat called Animal Accomplice, which gives them a Familiar.)

[Some Kind of Chymist]

Hiding around a corner while having the familiar deliever the spell is a cool idea (when you have no line of sight).

I'm also not saying that familiars aren't useful; they're super useful with abilities (thats why i'm making a squirrel wizard). I was merely wondering if in a squirrel vs. Reach spell battle for delivering touch spells if the squirrel or the metamagic won.

[Some Kind of Chymist]

Also side question on the familiar front; I assume my familiar counts as a willing creature for spells but what about other animals.
*Cough* Enlarge creature on random vermin as a distraction *cough*

[Siro]

Some Kind of Chymist wrote:

Also side question on the familiar front; I assume my familiar counts as a willing creature for spells but what about other animals.

*Cough* Enlarge creature on random vermin as a distraction *cough*

Most likely not. Can’t really be willing if you have no idea what’s going on, and you have magic being thrusted upon you, by a stranger of another species that is 10-20 times the size of you. Still a novel idea, perhaps carry around a sack of trained rats for those purposes.

[mrspaghetti]

Some Kind of Chymist wrote:

Spell delivery has a shorter distance (25ft speed + attack to touch) and a bigger chance of failure because its a lower modifier when the familiar is doing attack roles.

Are you sure about that? I assumed that Spell Delivery implied that, since the familiar was just delivering the spell on your behalf, you would still get a spell attack roll as if you were delivering the spell.

If the familiar only gets your level as a modifier as opposed to level + proficiency, that is a huge hit. I wouldn't consider using a familiar to deliver touch spells if that is the case.

One thing I didn't see mentioned in the thread though is that Reach Spell requires an additional action whereas it does not look like Spell Delivery does. So in theory you could cast a touch spell and then also move or cast Shield if you send in your familiar to (probably miss). But if you cast the same spell with Reach Spell, you don't get to do anything else. (But you might actually hit).

Details aside, your idea sounds fun.

[Castilliano]

I wouldn't use a familiar to deliver a spell if I liked my familiar.

A creature w/ 5 h.p./level and a mage's AC ends its turn next to an enemy?
It's hard enough keeping them alive vs. AoEs.
And you lose an action next round as you'll need to command it to flee.

Also, many touch spells now lack an attack roll, though yes, it reads that a familiar only gets your level as its attack modifier. And the phrasing implies it's making the attack, not you. You're passing the energy to it and it's trying to deliver the spell.
So that's a severe hit to touch spell attack rolls.

While there are situations where a familiar can be useful delivering a touch spell, most of the time Reach Spell works better for tough combats (plus it helps w/ all those 30' spells that put you too close to the battlefront.)

[WHW]

A lot of touch spells do not include Attack roll, actually.

I think the best use of spell delivery for the Familiar is - assuming that the command to deliver is a part of the spellcasting action itself - the ability to hand out *beneficial* touch spells without having to move to your friends. Throwing your squirrel at enemies, even with Lifelink, sounds disastrous. Though technically, with Lifelink, each attack that didn't trigger Lifelink but targeted the Familiar is actually wasted action on the opponent, so...profit? Sadly, with 5 hp per level, they will most likely be downed by a single hit anyway. Too bad there is no familiar ability to enhance their durability!

So for offensive spells, I would rather take Reach Spell. For friendly spells that do not involve throwing a familiar at the enemies, Spell Delivery.

[SuperBidi]

Castilliano wrote:

I wouldn't use a familiar to deliver a spell if I liked my familiar.

I wouldn't go adventuring with my familiar if I liked it.

[WHW]

SuperBidi wrote:

Castilliano wrote:

I wouldn't use a familiar to deliver a spell if I liked my familiar.

I wouldn't go adventuring with my familiar if I liked it.

Touche.

Honestly, I'm not sure what fantasy are the Familiars supposed to emulate. They are not the mystical beings that teach you magical secrets in exchange for abiding a contract (they are way too dumb to be any sort of wisdom-dispensing companion, as their skills are miserable); they are not really a mystical beings offering magical assistance and service in exchange for something else either. They are basically pets that don't do anything and are a platform to pick extra spell slot once you can do that. Maybe it is because I'm a newcomer to the genre, but they do not map to anything I would expect from a "familiar", both from folk tradition and fantasy media.

[Ferrin33]

Reach spell explicitly only lets you increase the range of spells.

Your familiar can do a lot more, and can be changed every day to change what you want it to do. It can also let you reach things 40 feet away if they have Fast Movement instead of 30 feet, though by default it will be worse at 25 feet.

Personally, I think this is a good thing. The issue is that familiars are just to squishy in general regardless of delivering touch spells or not, which makes it that much worse to use them in this way. I think making them more durable will go a long way to making this use of familiars more viable.

[WHW]

Yeah. Their squishiness is a problem. Enjoy having Life-link with your familiar and being fireballed. Suddenly, you are either chooising between letting the little rodent turn into BBQ, or taking double damage from the effect.

[mrspaghetti]

Actually, wouldn't it be hilarious if Life Link worked both ways? In other words, you could choose to have your familiar sacrifice it's life to spare you from taking 5 points of damage. For a mere week of downtime, one could find a cute, cuddly replacement that would effectively grant you 5 more HP.

[Grumpus]

Do we know for sure whether you still have to spend the action to command your familiar to use "Spell Delivery"? Or is this for free and folded into the actions needed to just cast the spell?

[mrspaghetti]

Grumpus wrote:

Do we know for sure whether you still have to spend the action to command your familiar to use "Spell Delivery"? Or is this for free and folded into the actions needed to just cast the spell?

Upon reading it again, it seems pretty clear you have to spend an action to command them

If your familiar is in your space, you can cast a spell with a range of touch, transfer its power to your familiar, and command the familiar to deliver the spell. If you do, the familiar uses its 2 actions for the round to move to a target of your choice and touch that target. If it doesn’t reach the target to touch it this turn, the spell has no effect.