Questions on character builds

[Jon Goranson]

Greetings!

I'm late in getting to some things, so apologize but a quick search didn't yield anything. I'm playing around with Hero Lab Online (HRO) and made a 17th level Sorcerer and a 20th level paladin just for fun and to see the numbers. The numbers scare me.

Now, I'm sure that HRO isn't updated with final rules but I am curious if what I'm seeing is correct. My assumption is that a three level gap like the above isn't bad. I also thought they were flattening the numbers and not going to go as high.

In the case of the 17th level sorcerer v a 20th level paladin:

Paladin: +5 full plate for AC 44, TAC 40. Saves are F+32, R+25, W+30. +4 Bastard Sword. +32/27/22. Damage: 5d8+6 Hit Points: 328
Sorcerer: Mage Armor: AC 33, TAC 33. Saves are F+27, R+22, W+27. Spell attack is +24. Spell DCs are 34. +3 Mace is +21/16/11. Damage: 4d6+1 +3 Crossbow are +20/15/10 Damage: 4d8 Hit Points: 178

This sorcerer is outclassed at all points. Spells that require an attack means he can't get a critical, only hits on a 20, a 16+ for TAC. He only hits on physical attacks on a 20. Spells are saved on a 2, 9, or 4, for F/R/W. Reflex doesn't critical save often but other two might, which seems to be no damage.

The paladin is going to win. Assuming he can get close and the sorcerer doesn't run away, he hits on a 2/6/11, so more than half the time. A normal long sword gives him 29/24/19, which hits on a 4/9/14. Might take longer as the damage d8+6 isn't great for the level. I didn't intend for these two to fight and gave the paladin Angelic Form, so the sorcerer has to teleport to get away as flight won't do it.

To compare again, I made a 20th level Rogue.

Rogue: Dagger +30/26/22. Damage: 4d4+6 +2 leather AC 39, TAC 38. Saves aren't as important but F+24 R+31 W+26. Hit Points: 206

So, the rogue has a few more options. Legendary sneak to maybe get a +2 flank but still only hits on a 12 for flanking, 14 otherwise. Poisons might also help wear him down but it would be drawn out and not guaranteed as the Paladin hits on 7/12/17. Not to mention Lay on Hands to help. Maybe a readied action by the paladin allows one hit and his damage is higher for his weapon. Sneak attack is only +4d6 at 20th level.

First of all, do these numbers look right? I have made assumptions and corrections are fine. Second, from a numbers standpoint, is that what is expected?

Looking at an ancient Black Dragon, better numbers than the sorcerer but not by much. An Ancient Blue Dragon or Red Dragon would be tougher but possible. (Also, do I read it correctly that dragons can choose between bite, claw, and tail as they prefer in any combination up to three?)

I'm excited about PF2E the more I have read about it, watched videos, and played in the character creator. When I brought down the print outs of these characters, I was shocked at these numbers, so had to share and ask where I went wrong. Or if I did.

Thanks!

[oholoko]

Jon Goranson wrote:

I'm excited about PF2E the more I have read about it, watched videos, and played in the character creator. When I brought down the print outs of these characters, I was shocked at these numbers, so had to share and ask where I went wrong. Or if I did.

Well those are playtest numbers. But yeah level now is a bigger deal than it was before and it didn't seem to change int he final version. A 3-4 level gap really tips the favor. I like and dislike that... It's fun to have a boss that can finally challenge players.

But it's annoying to have a 2 level gap and one player be worse at every skill.

[Captain Morgan]

I'm not exactly sure where your problem is here, but yes, the best tank class in the game is going to beat the rogue or the sorcerer in a punch fest, largely thanks to his superior defenses, especially when he has 3 levels over his opponent. That paradigm isn't going to change in the final version. The rogue and sorcerer are significantly more versatile than the paladin and this don't bring as much to the punch table.

I haven't actually gotten into your numbers though to see if anything was wrong in it.

[Jon Goranson]

CM: But it's not that they are better in a punch fest, it's also that the martial's saves were so good that they would at least save and reasonably critically save against spells. In my example, the caster would have to run and if they can't fly/teleport, they lose.

If the caster can win in the casting side of it, I guess my question is was that intended?

O: Again, I think it's worse. I don't expect the sorcerer to beat up the martial, but the sorcerer is dominated.

Thanks for the replies!

Soon, they will be out!