I just got invited to fill in for someone who dropped out of a local RotRL home game, and I was looking for some help with a character build.
The party lost their rogue, so I am going to be stepping in to fill the role of trap disabler, and adventuring skill monkey.
They are a ways into book 1, so I'll be starting at level 3 with 3000gp to play with. 25pt buy for stats.
I got permission to play a Catfolk from the GM since I've been wanting to play one for ages, but couldn't due to PFS limitations.
I'm thinking Unchained Rogue with the Catfolk racial archetype, Cat Burglar would work well. Take the cats claws and climber alternate racial traits to get 2 claw attacks and a climb speed (fitting for a cat burglar).
I am open to other class options, or even multi-classing, I do want to stick with Catfolk though. I was thinking at least 3 levels of URogue to get finesse and dex to damage right from the start, won't be able to afford an AoMF right off the bat unfortunately.
Anyone have any non-spoilery input as to a good rogue-ish build for this AP?
The current party consists of a Samurai, a Ranger, a Cleric, and an Arcanist. So it is reasonably well balanced other than needing a trap removal expert.
looks good choice to me. i dont think there is a bad choice
The campaign does not require, but does have uses for, solid face skills if you are inclined that way.
The players in my Runelords game (currently starting book 6) describe it as feeling like classic 1st/2nd ed with better story cohesion, if that helps you guess what to expect.
The types of enemies and challenges may seem to be repetative within a single book, but will change from book to book.
In general though your idea sounds good to me, I like catfolk ninja personally, but the URogue dex to dmg and free skill unlocks are sweet.
While I haven't read or played far in that series I'd assume that the runelords mentioned in the title have the odd spell at their disposal and you might want to make sure your saves are up to the job.
That's easier with most of the other trapfinders (slayers, investigators, archaeologist bards, trapper rangers, a couple of alchemist archetypes; not seeker oracles/sorcs) because they have two good saves rather than one, but it is doable with a rogue.
Someone with the ability to find/disable traps & the offhand ability to use magic device in case the defacto magic user gets in trouble is always handy...climb speed is also nice!
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Get the Trap Spotter talent. There's a few traps in places you don't always think to look at.
Book 2 has a lot of Will saves IIRC, so I'd look into Iron Will a little earlier than you otherwise might.
There's not a whole lot of finesse-able weapons in loot early on (and if the party is at level 3, then the one notable one is probably already claimed and/or lost and/or sold), so I'd heavily consider spending some of that 3K on a +1 weapon. RotRL does a bit of the traditional D&D challenges, which means there's at least one early combat that's much easier with magic weapons. Even if you're planning on using the claws, it'll be nice to have in the meantime.
URogue should be fine in RotRL, though, especially on that team.
I really like the idea of combining Ninja Vanishing Trick and False Attacker to make a sniper that does Sneak Attack Damage and can stay hidden as long as you please. I would dip a level in Arcanist, so I could use Ranged Touch Attack Cantrips and Spells such as the Wand of Scorching Ray, because the idea of making Ranged Touch Attacks vs. Flatfooted AC just makes me smile.
1Fighter1: Precise Shot
2F1N1:
3F1N2: Ki Pool, Ninja Vanishing Trick, Rogue Talent, False Attacker
4F1N2Aranist1
If you were a Half Elf, there is an Alternate Racial Trait that will let you use Wands without having to take that level dip, but you might want to anyway because the Arcane Exploit Dimensional Slide is a great way to achieve Flanking, and it's a good idea to have more than 1 way to lock in your Sneak Attack Damage.
Another idea which in my head is related is to take levels in Grenadier Alchemist instead of Ninja. Be a Goblin. Take Burn! Burn! Burn! as soon as you get 2 levels in Alchemist and can attach Alchemist Fire or Lamp Oil to your arrows. After you get the Explosive Missile Discovery, take a level in Gunslinger and take the Goblin Gunslinger Feat, so you can fire a Size Medium Flintlock Pistol. Now you have the power of Alchemist Fire, Burn! Burn! Burn! and your Bombs all bundled up in a gun, so you make Ranged Touch Attacks with Exploding Bullets. Since you are doing that, you should go ahead and take Deadly Aim. Ask your GM if that would work with Vital Strike Feats!
1Fighter1: Precise Shot
2F1Alchemist1: Bombs and stuff
3F1A2: Alchemal Weapon, Discovery, Burn! Burn! Burn!
4F1A3:
5F1A4: Explosive Missile Feat
6F1A4Gunslinger1:
7F1A5G1: Goblin Gunslinger
I always like exploiting the power of the Eversmoking Bottle. I was thinking start off with a level in Fighter to get Precise Shot. Then you take 3 levels in Bard with the Flame Dancer Archetype. Then uncork your Eversmoking Bottle. The Eversmoking Bottle will make everyone Blind, friend and foe alike, but the Flame Dancer Bard has the ability to give all your allies the ability to see through fire and smoke, so now you can just Blind your opponents pretty much all the time.
1Fighter1: Precise Shot
2F1Bard1
3F1B2: Idunno, weapon Focus Long Composite Bow, or something
4F1B3: Song of Fiery Gaze, get that Eversmoking Bottle!
So, when your opponents are Blind, they don't get their Dex Mod to AC, and you get your Sneak Attack Damage. The 'smoke' would give them Total Concealment which would cancel that, but Song of Fiery Gaze fixes that for you and your party, so start accumulating SAD. So your next levels should be in Snakebite Striker Brawler, Ninja, Greensting Scorpion Magus, etc, so you can get your SAD. Take Accomplished Sneak Attacker at level 5 There's a Teamwork Feat, Precise Strike that also gives +1d6 to Sneak Attack, so at some point, take a level in Cavalier.
You should have more than 1 way to lock in your Sneak Attack Damage. Snakebite Striker will let you Feint as part of your Move. There is Rogue Talent called Underhanded Trick which gives you Improved Dirty Trick: if you have an opponent with Blindsight who is not hampered by your 'smoke', you can play a Dirty Trick to make him Deaf and Blind, too: that should do it!
I like Natural Attacks with Sneak Attack, because the more Attacks you get, the more you get: they all get SAD, and no penalties! Catfolk can get Claws as a Racial Trait. Get a Ring of Ratfangs, so you can get a Bite Attack. Get a Helm of the Mammoth Lord, so you can get a Gore Attack. There are ways to get even more attacks.
Removing your hand from a 2 handed weapon and putting a hand to a 2 handed weapon you are holding in your other hand are both Free Actions. That means you can Full Attack with your Claws without even putting down your bow. You can't also shoot your bow in that same round, but you will still enjoy great flexibility switching between Melee and Ranged Combat.
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In book 1 you're dealing with mostly small and medium creatures. From Book 3 onward you'll mostly be dealing with large sized creatures. If you plan on being melee focused that means figuring out a way to deal with reach and AoO.
Push perception hard early on. While the AP is light on traps, you'll miss quite a bit of treasure if you can't make a DC 20+ perception check consistently.
Most of the AP a rogue should be fine. Most monsters tend to be high hp, and on the low side of AC. I would recommend carrying a few buff type potions for boss fights. The bosses have high AC and will be tough for a rogue to hit.
The 2 main hubs of activity for the AP are Sandpoint and Magnamar. Expect to revisit both locations quite a few times. Making good relations in both locations is not a waste of time.
If there isn't a female in the party, the GM would probably appreciate it if you were female. Mostly for bad reasons, but the story flows much better so sucking it up and being that character would make the game better. Also being a female rogue would open up a certain possibility if the GM wants to float it out there for you. It really depends on how much the GM reads up on Magnamar and if he wants to run side adventures in the city.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Removing your hand from a 2 handed weapon and putting a hand to a 2 handed weapon you are holding in your other hand are both Free Actions. That means you can Full Attack with your Claws without even putting down your bow. You can't also shoot your bow in that same round, but you will still enjoy great flexibility switching between Melee and Ranged Combat. When you swing with 1 hand open, you make your primary attack. You take a free action to switch the bow to your other hand, you still have 1 hand open, you haven't gained any additional open hands. You are still 'wielding' 1 claw with the other hand occupied. At no point in this are you wielding 2 claws with nothing else occupying a hand unless you either drop or juggle the weapon.
Meirril wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Removing your hand from a 2 handed weapon and putting a hand to a 2 handed weapon you are holding in your other hand are both Free Actions. That means you can Full Attack with your Claws without even putting down your bow. You can't also shoot your bow in that same round, but you will still enjoy great flexibility switching between Melee and Ranged Combat. When you swing with 1 hand open, you make your primary attack. You take a free action to switch the bow to your other hand, you still have 1 hand open, you haven't gained any additional open hands. You are still 'wielding' 1 claw with the other hand occupied. At no point in this are you wielding 2 claws with nothing else occupying a hand unless you either drop or juggle the weapon. Just holding a regular weapon does not demote a weapon from primary to secondary.
Claw Attacks are additional attack slots, and natural attacks don't have primary and off-hand attacks. The 2-hands-worth of actions rules just don't apply to Natural Attacks.
I don't understand your objection.
If I were going more Ninja, I would probably go with Teisatsu Vigilante instead...I think they make better Ninja's than the actual Ninja class. Poisons are next to useless in my experience due to the low saves and limited uses on them, and the Teisatsu gets monk ki powers instead.
I am not averse to playing a female character, don't know if a female catfolk would change any of the interactions...DC Comics Catwoman comes to mind as solid inspiration, no whip though...they are way too feat intensive.
Definite no on anything goblin...the GM initially said core races only, then I convinced them to let me play the Catfolk, which I've been wanting but unable to play for the last 3 years.
Not really wanting to focus on ranged combat or magic, I'll probably carry something for range as a backup, but not as my primary...and I'll probably have a decent UMD, but didn't want to go with any innate arcane or divine stuff...monk/ninja ki powers are about as close to that end as I want to get.
I don't think the rest of the party is built around dealing with smoke/darkness shenanigans. If I was getting in on the ground floor of the campaign and could make sure they knew from the outset to build for that maybe.
Going to play around a bit with some Ninja and Teisatsu builds, see if I like how they come out compared to just the Unchained Cat Burglar Rogue.
Slyme wrote: I don't think the rest of the party is built around dealing with smoke/darkness shenanigans. Ah, the thing about Flame Dancer Bard is that the rest of the party does not need to be prepared for smoke shenaigans. The Bardic Performance gives the rest of the party the ability to see through the smoke.
Slyme wrote: Not really wanting to focus on ranged combat With the possible exception of the Goblin Gunslinger Grenadier, none of the builds I proposed focused on magic.
For Melee combat as well as Ranged, for a Rogue/Sneak Attack build, I see the core of it as accumulating Sneak Attack Damage and having a few ways of making sure you have your SAD locked in.
So, I talked about taking a level in Arcanist, but you get Dimensional Slide, a 10' Teleport that you can so as part of your Movement. Which seems like a great way to achieve Flanking for Sneak Attack Damage.
Snakebite Striker Brawler has a class ability that works well with Feint.
Dirty Tricks can make your opponents Blind. When Blinded, you don't get your Dex Mod to AC, and that means Sneak Attack Damage.
Apart from that, I recommend you take Claws and get other Natural Attacks, too.
AVR has the right idea. If you want a trap spotter an investigator is going to serve the role much better. Having some magic will make filling other rolls much easier. The accuracy boost with polymorph spells will crush a rogue, especially against high AC targets. Remember that a point of attack is worth about 2 damage so an investigator gets 3 extra damage a level (the accuracy is useful even when there is immunity to precision damage) where the rogue gets 3.5 every other.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Meirril wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Removing your hand from a 2 handed weapon and putting a hand to a 2 handed weapon you are holding in your other hand are both Free Actions. That means you can Full Attack with your Claws without even putting down your bow. You can't also shoot your bow in that same round, but you will still enjoy great flexibility switching between Melee and Ranged Combat. When you swing with 1 hand open, you make your primary attack. You take a free action to switch the bow to your other hand, you still have 1 hand open, you haven't gained any additional open hands. You are still 'wielding' 1 claw with the other hand occupied. At no point in this are you wielding 2 claws with nothing else occupying a hand unless you either drop or juggle the weapon. Just holding a regular weapon does not demote a weapon from primary to secondary.
Claw Attacks are additional attack slots, and natural attacks don't have primary and off-hand attacks. The 2-hands-worth of actions rules just don't apply to Natural Attacks.
I don't understand your objection. ok, if your hands were empty you'd be able to use both claws in a natural attack. But one hand is always going to be occupied with the bow. Using a free action to flip it from one hand to another isn't going to free up a hand, because one hand will always be holding the bow. Unless you use the bow, in that case 2 hands are holding the bow while you perform the standard or full round action where you are using the bow.
Funny thing about Pathfinder, it doesn't designate which hand is primary or secondary. Flipping your bow around doesn't free up your off hand to make an off hand attack. One hand is always going to be occupied so there is no point where you have 2 free hands available to make 2 claw attacks. One hand will always be occupied with the bow unless you drop it, stow it (which is a standard action), or find some other way to not be holding it (like the rather obscure juggling class feature).
Meirril wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Meirril wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Removing your hand from a 2 handed weapon and putting a hand to a 2 handed weapon you are holding in your other hand are both Free Actions. That means you can Full Attack with your Claws without even putting down your bow. You can't also shoot your bow in that same round, but you will still enjoy great flexibility switching between Melee and Ranged Combat. When you swing with 1 hand open, you make your primary attack. You take a free action to switch the bow to your other hand, you still have 1 hand open, you haven't gained any additional open hands. You are still 'wielding' 1 claw with the other hand occupied. At no point in this are you wielding 2 claws with nothing else occupying a hand unless you either drop or juggle the weapon. Just holding a regular weapon does not demote a weapon from primary to secondary.
Claw Attacks are additional attack slots, and natural attacks don't have primary and off-hand attacks. The 2-hands-worth of actions rules just don't apply to Natural Attacks.
I don't understand your objection. ok, if your hands were empty you'd be able to use both claws in a natural attack. But one hand is always going to be occupied with the bow. Using a free action to flip it from one hand to another isn't going to free up a hand, because one hand will always be holding the bow. Unless you use the bow, in that case 2 hands are holding the bow while you perform the standard or full round action where you are using the bow.
Funny thing about Pathfinder, it doesn't designate which hand is primary or secondary. Flipping your bow around doesn't free up your off hand to make an off hand attack. One hand is always going to be occupied so there is no point where you have 2 free hands available to make 2 claw attacks. One hand will always be occupied with the bow unless you drop it, stow it (which is a standard action), or find some other way to not be holding it (like the rather obscure juggling... Ah crap, you're right.
Universal Monster Rules wrote: Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type. You have to forgo a Claw attack for each weapon clutched in a Claw and nevermind which Claw. That's not as cool as I'd hoped.
It's academic at this point, since the OP doesn't want a Ranged Attack Build anyway.
Grandlounge wrote: AVR has the right idea. AVR wrote: you might want to make sure your saves are up to the job. That's easier with most of the other trapfinders (slayers, investigators, archaeologist bards, trapper rangers, a couple of alchemist archetypes; not seeker oracles/sorcs) because they have two good saves rather than one, but it is doable with a rogue. Grandlounge wrote: Having some magic will make filling other rolls much easier. The builds I proposed take heavy advantage of the Good Saving throws of trapfinder classes (Ninja and Bard, mostly) with some magic, too.
So really good trap spotting look at emperisist investigator, and jinyiwei investigator. Both have stupendous perception. Jinyiwei actually casts spells and so gets item use for wands and scrolls on the inquisiitor list. Empiricist gets stupid good UMD.
The other advantage of the investigator is when you roll multiple dice you actually get a distribution in your rolls not a linear probability of each number, making failure less likely. Early access to heroism through alchemical allocation is important for saves, attacks and skill checks. The most dangerous traps have spell effects thus will should not be ignored. This is also runelords so any low will save build is a no go imho.
Sticking with a single class allows spells, study, and trap finding to progress at the full rate.
Grandlounge wrote: The other advantage of the investigator is when you roll multiple dice you actually get a distribution in your rolls not a linear probability of each number, making failure less likely. Early access to heroism through alchemical allocation is important for saves, attacks and skill checks. The most dangerous traps have spell effects thus will should not be ignored. This is also runelords so any low will save build is a no go imho.
Sticking with a single class allows spells, study, and trap finding to progress at the full rate.
I'm impressed by Investigator's Inspiration. The ability to add 1d6 to Attack Rolls, Saving Throws, and Skill Checks is really good.
I'm also really impressed by the fact that Investigators get Alchemal Extracts and Investigator Talents which include all Alchemist Discoveries and Rogue Talents, which include all Ninja Tricks and Combat Feats, and can give you a Ki Pool!
Studied Strike is slightly less good than Sneak Attack because Studied Combat requires a Move Action to activate, and it only lasts until your next hit. That means it doesn't really work with Full Attacking. My Vanishing Ninja doesn't really get Full Attacks either, it doesn't grant that sweet +1d6 on Attack Rolls, but instead makes Ranged Touch Attacks vs. Flatfooted AC. The Flame Dancer, Eversmoking Bottle + Sneak Attack does allow for multiple attacks with Feats like Rapid Shot. It gets neither the Touch Attack nor the Inspiration Bonus, but it grants the whole party with Total Concealment and denies almost all your opponents their Dex Mods to AC for your whole party, not just yourself. The OP is most interested in Melee, though, so I'm thinking it would be best to come up with a few long-duration ways of denying Dex to your opponents and then scoring SAD on multiple attacks.
Multiclassing sure does delay access to high level Spells (and Extracts) and Class Abilities, so if that is what the reader wants, multiclassing is a bad idea. My emphasis is to in early levels lock in key abilities and accumulate SAD and other bonuses.
Quick study make study a swift action. You don't get the full of rogue talents. If you did the class would be fully obsolete.
As I stated above studied combat is better than sneak attack on its own. You only used studied strike as a finishing blow or on a hard fight use it and spend inspiration to study again. In either case it out performs full sneak attack progression. This fact combined with the fact that you don't need to spend feats to "get" sneak attack damage which frees you up to invest in other more interesting things.
Having a flanking partner is an easy way to get sneak attack there are plenty of ways to get a mauler familiar or an animal companion. I find this to be the more direct solution.
As for the flamedancer most people know it's good and I don't know anyone who plays it because it's pretty disruptive. It either trivialized encounter or forces a gm to build around them. Almost everyone that I have talked to about it has said the same thing which I would paraphrase as 'ya it's good but it makes the game bad'.
Yeah, there's a list of 10 alchemist discoveries and about twice that many rogue talents which investigators can select. Not all of them in either case.
There are some great options from the alchemist discoveries despite the limited list mutagen, infusion, the potion ones, and combined extract are all great.
The rogue list is well...
Combined extract is meh (generally a 4th level extract > a 1st and a 2nd level for example) but between the other alchemist discoveries you mention and the actual investigator talents there's plenty to fill an investigator's options.
I think the blood of shadows rogue talents are also options for an investigator, but even theorycrafting I've never used the rogue talents for them. Trap spotter is something that the people I know would forget until too late when GMing and it's not something useful to me as a GM. And the rest seem to be chosen for not being useful.
Shrug. There are pairs of first level extracts that rival third level buffs. They are especially useful in hard games with unpredictable combats for builds like reach builds (long arm, enlarge person) or dex builds (reduce person / shield or reduce/ long arm) the former to become unhittable the latter to buff attack damage AC and boost aoos. The best reason not to take it is that the Admixture Vial exists.
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After a bit more discussion with the GM, half the party are pretty new players and not min-maxers at all. I think I am just going to go with my initial thought and just go URogue for simplicity, and so I don't end up overshadowing half the party and ruining the new players fun.
Thanks for all the help and suggestions, I'm thinking about rolling up an investigator for PFS now thanks to the discussion focused around that class :)
There does appear to be a need for someone that can handle social skill checks in that group.
I have 2 in pfs. They are great. I recommend paying attention and trying not to overshadow the whole table at skills.
Going to talk to the GM and see if any of the current players are specialized in any skills. My current beta is focused on the burglar stuff (perception, disable device, stealth, etc) but I've got enough skill points to cover any openings.
I know the samurai player, and he is very much a combat focused player, so I don't expect much in the way of out of combat stuff from him. The casters are being run by experienced player/GM, so will probably have at least decent skills. I don't know the player running the ranger, but they are newer to the game, don't know if they did any research beforehand, or got help on their character. I'll see next week.
Grandlounge wrote: Quick study make study a swift action. Better, but only attack/round can get Studied Damage because Studied Combat only lasts until you score a hit and you only get 1 Swift or 1 Move Action per Round to activate it.
Slyme wrote: After a bit more discussion with the GM, half the party are pretty new players and not min-maxers at all. I think I am just going to go with my initial thought and just go URogue for simplicity, and so I don't end up overshadowing half the party and ruining the new players fun.
Thanks for all the help and suggestions, I'm thinking about rolling up an investigator for PFS now thanks to the discussion focused around that class :)
Have fun!
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Grandlounge wrote: Quick study make study a swift action. Better, but only attack/round can get Studied Damage because Studied Combat only lasts until you score a hit and you only get 1 Swift or 1 Move Action per Round to activate it.
You're thinking of studied strike. You can end studied combat to use studied strike, but mostly you keep studied combat up and just forget about studied strike.
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