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So maybe I missed something but looking at all the monk weapons it seems like none of them compare to using the stances even when looking at high str low dex their was a stance attack better for that then a monk weapon. I thought maybe a ranged monk would cool using Shuriken but then I noticed that Monastic Weapons ability to us unarmed abilities only applied to melee weapons so that was a bust too.
TLDR: Is there a reason beyond flavor to ever choose to use weapons as a monk.
(would love to see Mark in here to give his opinion like he did for power attack)
Multiclassing maybe. If your proficiency with weaons is going to be higher than your proficiency with unamred strikes monastic weaponry may be worth it.
EDIT: That would be for fighter base Monk multiclass though. For a monk base I can't see a reason beyond flavor myself.
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In the playtest, it depends on the weapon. The Bo Staff grants Reach and Parry, for example, as well as being a d8 weapon. Reach is quite good in some cases. Most other Monk weapons are admittedly a bit sub-par unless you really need the Disarm or Trip properties, however.
We don't really know how this will work in the final version of the rules.
Multiclassing maybe. If your proficiency with weaons is going to be higher than your proficiency with unamred strikes monastic weaponry may be worth it.
EDIT: That would be for fighter base Monk multiclass though. For a monk base I can't see a reason beyond flavor myself.
You know I don't even want weapons to be better just equal to the various unarmed so it doesn't feel so bad to choose them if you want the flavor.
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It's only relevant for multiclassing but: Some feats like Double Slice, Twin Takedown, many other fighter feats call for using weapons. So if your monk wants to flurry AND twin-takedown, you have to use monk weapons.
Also, weapon abilities.
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The weapon traits are definitely something. You also get the whole range of weapons for one feat rather than a feat per stance.
Weapons also don't need to meet any requirements of the stances. In the Playtest, they all required being unarmored, so there might be a build in there. I'm not seeing it right now, maybe champion multiclassing, but I'm sure it'll come up.
Weapons and stances also mix in a way stances can't with each other. Barring crane stance, you can have your reach or ranged or disarm or whatever options literally in hand without dropping out of stance. And if you critically fail a disarm and drop your weapon, it's not like you don't have two more *holds up fists*
So I don't think it's earth-shattering or anything, and they might have been improved in the final version, but I can see cases where it could be worth a feat.
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There are some other niche benefits. You can walk around with a weapon in your hand all day in exploration mode, but you can't maintain a stance in case you get ambushed. Things like that.
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I feel like the problem in the playtest was that there just wasn't in-class feat support for weapon monks, but there's no reason there can't be in the future/actual release.
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#1, there creatures you don't want to punch because it will cause damage/harm.
#2 there are creatures outside your reach. A Shuriken looks darn good when a flying target comes around.
#3 You can combine flurry and hunted shot for 4 shuriken shots per round. EDIT: also with Hunter’s Edge [flurry], the second set of attacks is at only -6. on the second round you could make 5 attacks [flurry, hunted shot and normal strike].
As to being unable to use "Monastic Weapons ability to us unarmed abilities only applied to melee weapons", it doesn't need too: the weapon itself allows it. Monk weapon trait: "Monks can use these weapons with their abilities that normally require unarmed attacks." As such, you can flurry with shurikens with or without the feat. All the feat really does is make the proficiency rank for monk weapons match your unarmed proficiency rank.
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I'm going for a different angle here.
Think for a moment - if you get the stance, you have a better weapon.
If you don't get the stance... you get whatever other feat you picked.
Now, that to me sounds like a trade-off.
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One thing I'm curious about is that the playtest had a bunch of options for "more than one stance" but in practice it felt like a lot of the time you could just say "I'm good" after picking tiger, wolf, crane, or dragon style, possibly retraining after you got one of the higher level styles.
So in the actual game is it going to be worth investing in multiple styles? It feels like "monastic weapons, to be good at throwing shuriken" might be a better option than Wild Winds Stance.
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I'm going for a different angle here.
Think for a moment - if you get the stance, you have a better weapon.
If you don't get the stance... you get whatever other feat you picked.Now, that to me sounds like a trade-off.
You also have to spend an action in encounter mode to start it up. There is also the matter of damage types, which is a lot easier to change with weapons. Add to that Critical Specialization Effects differ for different weapons.
IMO, a bo staff with parry, reach, trip doing a d8 looks quite competitive with the stances.
One thing I'm curious about is that the playtest had a bunch of oSo in the actual game is it going to be worth investing in multiple styles? It feels like "monastic weapons, to be good at throwing shuriken" might be a better option than Wild Winds Stance.
For myself, I went for monastic weapons over stances: It gave me versatility and didn't take an action to start up. I hope that styles get enough going for them that I want to take one let alone multiple ones.
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I think part of the issue was that in the playtest, at low levels, Dex monks of all varieties, and Str/Dex monks were viable but Str/Wis weren't. With expert in unarmored defense now giving +4 instead of +2 this solves the AC gap monks were left before they got bracers.
But none of the good monk weapons were really finesseable, so a dex>str monk pretty much had to go with a style instead of weapons. Of course, allegedly the final release has that monk style which gives you an armor bonus and caps your dex, which might be interesting to combine with like a bo staff approach.
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I think part of the issue was that in the playtest, at low levels, Dex monks of all varieties, and Str/Dex monks were viable but Str/Wis weren't. With expert in unarmored defense now giving +4 instead of +2 this solves the AC gap monks were left before they got bracers.
There's also the clothes that can accept armor runes.
none of the good monk weapons were really finesseable
*shrug* Nunchaku are 1d6, Backswing, disarm and finesse. For stances, you're only looking at 1d4 to 1d8 for finesse weapons so it's not a big difference in damage and you're losing an action each fight. IMO, finesse is competitive. Heck even if they mainly punch people [1d6], having a ranged option with a 0 reload that you can flurry is enough to take it over a stance for a dex monk IMO.
#3 You can combine flurry and hunted shot for 4 shuriken shots per round. EDIT: also with Hunter’s Edge [flurry], the second set of attacks is at only -6. on the second round you could make 5 attacks [flurry, hunted shot and normal strike].
You can't flurry or make any other "unarmed" ability with ranged weapons
which is a shame cuz I wanted to make a throwing monk| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Also I think fists count as weapons for things like Double slice and twin takedown, based on the wording of the LVL 16 Fighter feat Graceful Poise unless someone has word from a Dev that says otherwise
Of course, allegedly the final release has that monk style which gives you an armor bonus and caps your dex, which might be interesting to combine with like a bo staff approach.
Source plox?
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Of course, allegedly the final release has that monk style which gives you an armor bonus and caps your dex, which might be interesting to combine with like a bo staff approach.Source plox?
#3 You can combine flurry and hunted shot for 4 shuriken shots per round. EDIT: also with Hunter’s Edge [flurry], the second set of attacks is at only -6. on the second round you could make 5 attacks [flurry, hunted shot and normal strike].You can't flurry or make any other "unarmed" ability with ranged weapons
which is a shame cuz I wanted to make a throwing monk
YES, YES you can [in the playtest at least]. Read Monk weapon trait once. Monk weapon trait: "Monks can use these weapons with their abilities that normally require unarmed attacks."
The part in Monastic Weapons about melee weapons is meaningless when talking about flurry as the weapon trait ALREADY allows you to use them [without monastic weapons] with flurry and Shuriken is a ranged weapon with the monk trait. About all Monastic Weapons does is allows matching proficiency bonuses with unarmed/monk weapons and allowing monk feats to be used with monk weapons: however, since an ability can be "a feat, a spell, a class feature, and so on", I'd say the weapon trait already allowed use with feats anyway.
To be honest, I'm not sure why the feat mentions melee at all as it gives you something you already have.
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Here you go.Of course, allegedly the final release has that monk style which gives you an armor bonus and caps your dex, which might be interesting to combine with like a bo staff approach.Source plox?
One of the "MyPathfinderSpoiler" cards (#60, Fuse Stance) namechecks "Ironblood Stance" but implies it, like Crane Stance, is only compatible with one kind of strike. So if that's the "your body is armor" one" then we can't use it with weapons.
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One of the "MyPathfinderSpoiler" cards (#60, Fuse Stance) namechecks "Ironblood Stance" but implies it, like Crane Stance, is only compatible with one kind of strike. So if that's the "your body is armor" one" then we can't use it with weapons.Here you go.Of course, allegedly the final release has that monk style which gives you an armor bonus and caps your dex, which might be interesting to combine with like a bo staff approach.Source plox?
Ironblood is actually another new stance, which has a different really cool theme.
Ironblood is actually another new stance, which has a different really cool theme.
Ah- in my head I had been calling the "your body is armor" stance as "Iron Body Stance" since the Iron Body/Iron Shirt is one of the 72 arts of the Shaolin temple, which has been mythologized in many martial arts films in which it is much more effective. So I saw "Ironblood" and made the connection.
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The part in Monastic Weapons about melee weapons is meaningless when talking about flurry as the weapon trait ALREADY allows you to use them [without monastic weapons] with flurry and Shuriken is a ranged weapon with the monk trait. About all Monastic Weapons does is allows matching proficiency bonuses with unarmed/monk weapons and allowing monk feats to be used with monk weapons: however, since an ability can be "a feat, a spell, a class feature, and so on", I'd say the weapon trait already allowed use with feats anyway.
To be honest, I'm not sure why the feat mentions melee at all as it gives you something you already have.
OMG GRAYSTONE I LOVE YOU!!!!!!!
I never noticed that, I hope that dosn't change cuz I'm so excited to make a ranged monk now.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The part in Monastic Weapons about melee weapons is meaningless when talking about flurry as the weapon trait ALREADY allows you to use them [without monastic weapons] with flurry and Shuriken is a ranged weapon with the monk trait. About all Monastic Weapons does is allows matching proficiency bonuses with unarmed/monk weapons and allowing monk feats to be used with monk weapons: however, since an ability can be "a feat, a spell, a class feature, and so on", I'd say the weapon trait already allowed use with feats anyway.
To be honest, I'm not sure why the feat mentions melee at all as it gives you something you already have.
OMG GRAYSTONE I LOVE YOU!!!!!!!
I never noticed that, I hope that dosn't change cuz I'm so excited to make a ranged monk now.
I'm glad I made you happy! ;)
Yeah, I missed it at first too when I made a monk for the playtest and wanted Shurikens: I think the wording of Monastic Weapons throws people off so I hope they reword it and remove 'melee'.
Myself, I might try out a monk [ranger multiclass] and go crazy with those throwing stars.
The part in Monastic Weapons about melee weapons is meaningless when talking about flurry as the weapon trait ALREADY allows you to use them [without monastic weapons] with flurry and Shuriken is a ranged weapon with the monk trait. About all Monastic Weapons does is allows matching proficiency bonuses with unarmed/monk weapons and allowing monk feats to be used with monk weapons: however, since an ability can be "a feat, a spell, a class feature, and so on", I'd say the weapon trait already allowed use with feats anyway.
To be honest, I'm not sure why the feat mentions melee at all as it gives you something you already have.
OMG GRAYSTONE I LOVE YOU!!!!!!!
I never noticed that, I hope that dosn't change cuz I'm so excited to make a ranged monk now.I'm glad I made you happy! ;)
Yeah, I missed it at first too when I made a monk for the playtest and wanted Shurikens: I think the wording of Monastic Weapons throws people off so I hope they reword it and remove 'melee'.
Myself, I might try out a monk [ranger multiclass] and go crazy with those throwing stars.
It's unfortunate that Ranger MC doesn't give Hunter's Edge, would be nice to have that hefty MAP cut.
Would be nice if there was a mid-level Ranger MC feat to get a level 1 Hunter's Edge, but maybe that would make it too much, that MAP drop is a big deal.
from spoilers - RANGER DEDICATION (Feat 2)
[Archetype, Dedication, Multiclass]Prerequisites Dexterity 14
¶ You become trained in Survival; if you were already trained in Survival, you instead become trained in another skill of your choice. You become trained in ranger class DC.
¶ You can use the Hunt Prey action (page ??)
¶ Special You can't select another dedication feat until you have gained two other feats from the ranger archetype.
Hunter's edge is what they renamed hunter target. The flurry type reduces MAP's. Isn't Hunt Prey the new name for it?
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We basically know the rangers stuff from the paizocon spoilers.
#61 shows Hunt Prey (+2 Perception & Survival vs target and ignore penalties in second range increment)
#62 shows hunters edge as a class feature not a feat. The one shown in precision but the reducing MAP was flurry in the playtest. Probably not available for a MC ranger unless as Edge93 says there is a high level class feat to pick another edge.
MC ranger can probably still grab twin take down but I also think that flourish tag we have seen in the spoilers from paizocon will likely specifically prevent this. cards #57 #63
The only things that have the flourish tag are flurry of blows and hunted shot. Both abilities which allow two attacks as one action.
We basically know the rangers stuff from the paizocon spoilers.
#61 shows Hunt Prey (+2 Perception & Survival vs target and ignore penalties in second range increment)
#62 shows hunters edge as a class feature not a feat. The one shown in precision but the reducing MAP was flurry in the playtest. Probably not available for a MC ranger unless as Edge93 says there is a high level class feat to pick another edge.
MC ranger can probably still grab twin take down but I also think that flourish tag we have seen in the spoilers from paizocon will likely specifically prevent this. cards #57 #63
The only things that have the flourish tag are flurry of blows and hunted shot. Both abilities which allow two attacks as one action.
As to flourish, it says that ability can only once per turn. It didn't say you can't use another ability with flourish. [it might mean that but it didn't say it on the spoiler that I saw] So 2 different flourish abilities might work in a round. "As it has the flourish trait, you can use Flurry of Blows only once per turn."
I see the difference from the spoilers now. Hunt Prey is the base ability and edge gets you the bonuses [flurry, precision, stalker]. That's disappointing if it can't be gotten somehow.
True flourish is unclear. And presented in two different ways on Flurry of Blows and Hunted Shot with the first calling out the tag in the description and the second having a frequency rating.
I really hope that those weren't just taken straight from the document sent to the printers because it would be a real shame if they have such inconsistent formatting. I know typos are unavoidable to a degree but this sort of stuff is liable to lead to rules confusion. Just like the wording on monastic weaponry.
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True flourish is unclear. And presented in two different ways on Flurry of Blows and Hunted Shot with the first calling out the tag in the description and the second having a frequency rating.
I really hope that those weren't just taken straight from the document sent to the printers because it would be a real shame if they have such inconsistent formatting. I know typos are unavoidable to a degree but this sort of stuff is liable to lead to rules confusion. Just like the wording on monastic weaponry.
Some of that is special reminder text because 1st level abilities are worth doing a little handholding and reminding just to be safe (we also remind people about how multiple attack penalty works in some 1st level abilities that attack multiple times). In the overall book, it is crystal clear in the definition of flourish that flourishes are limited to just one flourish per turn.
Seems similar to how multiclass rogue sneak attack or barbarian rage damage don't scale up like the actual class features do.
even without Hunter's Edge Hunt Target can be useful. The range penalty negation effect is nice, particularly if you're using a weapon with poor range like Shuriken. And perhaps more importantly it's a stepping stone to other feats that give effects adding on to Hunt Target.
Hunt Target is pretty much required for a large swathe of the ranger feats, so if it wasn't available it'd be a huge hit in feats available to multiclass characters. As to help with Shurikens, ranger MC is less attractive with only one flourish abilities usable a round.
What worries me with Hunt Prey is the Concentrate trait... That seems to mean it eats up an action each round to use and that's worrisome: assuming animal companions work the same, or similar, you're eating up 2 actions commanding it and using hunt prey.
PS: While I'm enjoying the discussion, we should most likely leave it for now as we're starting to wander further away from Monastic Weapons and more towards ranger abilities.
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What worries me with Hunt Prey is the Concentrate trait... That seems to mean it eats up an action each round to use and that's worrisome: assuming animal companions work the same, or similar, you're eating up 2 actions commanding it and using hunt prey.
The Concentrate trait doesn't mean you need to spend an action to keep it up, only that you need some focus to use it (i.e. not Raging or Fascinated) and that it's affected by Disruptive Attack of Opportunities (and Devastators' Opportune Armament)
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What worries me with Hunt Prey is the Concentrate trait... That seems to mean it eats up an action each round to use and that's worrisome: assuming animal companions work the same, or similar, you're eating up 2 actions commanding it and using hunt prey.
PS: While I'm enjoying the discussion, we should most likely leave it for now as we're starting to wander further away from Monastic Weapons and more towards ranger abilities.
The concentrate trait do not eat an action per turn, it looks that it's for stuff like Barbarian rage that don't let you do any action that have it per example, spells had a specific "concentrate on a spell(action)" in the playtest.
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Monk weapons may have some niche uses, but I feel it's very important for a monk that focuses on weapons to be just as good as a monk that focuses on unarmed strikes. Currently that was not true in the play test.
One option is for weapon using monks to have stances that work with weapons. I don't like that because stances have some issues, but I don't see any other solution because of how they set up the monk class.
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Monk weapons may have some niche uses, but I feel it's very important for a monk that focuses on weapons to be just as good as a monk that focuses on unarmed strikes. Currently that was not true in the play test.
One option is for weapon using monks to have stances that work with weapons. I don't like that because stances have some issues, but I don't see any other solution because of how they set up the monk class.
Are you asking for/referring to a specific stance that has synergy with weapons? Because as is, with the exception of crane, you can mix weapons with stances, so you can have a Temple Sword and Dragon kick Style, trip someone with the sword then ax kick them to death while they're flat on their back. Having Monastic Weapon mixed with a single stance you can come up with some very silly wombo combos (aforementioned trip -> kick, Vine style with Nunchaku so you can disarm, throw the weapon far away, and make them stay put so they can't go get the weapon and fight back)
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Are you asking for/referring to a specific stance that has synergy with weapons? Because as is, with the exception of crane, you can mix weapons with stances, so you can have a Temple Sword and Dragon kick Style, trip someone with the sword then ax kick them to death while they're flat on their back. Having Monastic Weapon mixed with a single stance you can come up with some very silly wombo combos (aforementioned trip -> kick, Vine style with Nunchaku so you can disarm, throw the weapon far away, and make them stay put so they can't go get the weapon and fight back)Monk weapons may have some niche uses, but I feel it's very important for a monk that focuses on weapons to be just as good as a monk that focuses on unarmed strikes. Currently that was not true in the play test.
One option is for weapon using monks to have stances that work with weapons. I don't like that because stances have some issues, but I don't see any other solution because of how they set up the monk class.
That wouldn't be focusing on using weapons though, that's using weapons to support a primarily unarmed focused character. I mean something like a stance that increases weapon damage dies by one size, or a temple sword stance that adds new properties like agile and new attacking actions you can perform with the sword.
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spells had a specific "concentrate on a spell(action)" in the playtest.
Ah, that's where I got things confused, I was thinking of that. Cool, that's seems better.
(except maybe Shuriken, that thing really feels like it should be d6)
I hope they bump it up in the actual game or at least give you a option, like a feat, to do that. IMO, it's pretty even with a shortbow and that's a martial weapon. I have a feeling they overvalued the extra traits on the Shuriken: for instance thrown is 1 or 2 extra damage at most.
EDIT: Also don't forget, as a thrown weapon, you have to spend an extra 100gp to buy a returning rune if you plan to buff it to keep damage competitive as you level.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Shuriken is a martial weapon albeit an uncommon one and being agile, thrown, and one handed it is competitive with the shortbow.
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Shuriken is a martial weapon albeit an uncommon one and being agile, thrown, and one handed it is competitive with the shortbow.
Grumble, grumble, grumble... Stupid playtest pdf. They have uncommon ranged after exotic melee so when I saw exotic I though everything after that was exotic too. :(
That does make it pretty close then.
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spells had a specific "concentrate on a spell(action)" in the playtest.Ah, that's where I got things confused, I was thinking of that. Cool, that's seems better.
(except maybe Shuriken, that thing really feels like it should be d6)I hope they bump it up in the actual game or at least give you a option, like a feat, to do that. IMO, it's pretty even with a shortbow and that's a martial weapon. I have a feeling they overvalued the extra traits on the Shuriken: for instance thrown is 1 or 2 extra damage at most.
EDIT: Also don't forget, as a thrown weapon, you have to spend an extra 100gp to buy a returning rune if you plan to buff it to keep damage competitive as you level.
This is probably why they renamed it to "Sustain a Spell action" in the final book. :P
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This is probably why they renamed it to "Sustain a Spell action" in the final book. :P
*two thumbs up* I approve of them reducing the number of reused words when they can.
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I suppose it is close when you put it that way, I keep forgetting Shortbows aren't Agile because in my houserules I drop Volley from Longbows and give Agile to Shortbows.Shuriken is a martial weapon albeit an uncommon one and being agile, thrown, and one handed it is competitive with the shortbow.Grumble, grumble, grumble... Stupid playtest pdf. They have uncommon ranged after exotic melee so when I saw exotic I though everything after that was exotic too. :(
That does make it pretty close then.
I had the exact same idea, how has it gone for you? I was worried it would be to unbalanced.
I had the exact same idea, how has it gone for you? I was worried it would be to unbalanced.I suppose it is close when you put it that way, I keep forgetting Shortbows aren't Agile because in my houserules I drop Volley from Longbows and give Agile to Shortbows.Shuriken is a martial weapon albeit an uncommon one and being agile, thrown, and one handed it is competitive with the shortbow.Grumble, grumble, grumble... Stupid playtest pdf. They have uncommon ranged after exotic melee so when I saw exotic I though everything after that was exotic too. :(
That does make it pretty close then.
Well for one, as this exchange illustrates, it makes bows much more powerful than other ranged weapons.
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Well for one, as this exchange illustrates, it makes bows much more powerful than other ranged weapons.I had the exact same idea, how has it gone for you? I was worried it would be to unbalanced.I suppose it is close when you put it that way, I keep forgetting Shortbows aren't Agile because in my houserules I drop Volley from Longbows and give Agile to Shortbows.Shuriken is a martial weapon albeit an uncommon one and being agile, thrown, and one handed it is competitive with the shortbow.Grumble, grumble, grumble... Stupid playtest pdf. They have uncommon ranged after exotic melee so when I saw exotic I though everything after that was exotic too. :(
That does make it pretty close then.
Hey Mark, I don't know if you're allowed to answer but, are crossbows any better in the final product. I love crossbows conceptually but in practice even the classes with bonuses towards using them are seem better off just using bows.