I think that would fall under the same purview as the slightly simpler question, "Can I ready an action to attack an arrow shot at me?"
I'm guessing the answer is "ha ha no", but I don't exactly have a citation.
Theoretically. The AC would probably be in the "why bother" range, however.
Fickle winds is a better use of a 5th-level spell slot.
If you could do that, cut from air would not exist. So... ha ha no.I think that would fall under the same purview as the slightly simpler question, "Can I ready an action to attack an arrow shot at me?"
I'm guessing the answer is "ha ha no", but I don't exactly have a citation.
Cut from the air can be done as an attack of opportunity, which is a lot more convenient than readying an action, so that doesn’t really prove anything.
There's also Missile Shield and Deflect Arrows/Snatch Arrows.
There's also a Ranger Archetype, Toxophilite, that can attack arrows and bolts out of the air.
From the Toxophilite's Intercept Arrow:
"Intercept Arrow (Ex): At 3rd level, a toxophilite can ready a ranged attack to deflect a ranged weapon attack against her or an ally within 30 feet. To deflect the attack, the toxophilite makes an attack with a ranged weapon. If her attack roll is greater than the attacking opponent’s roll, the opponent’s initial attack automatically misses. For each size category the attacking creature is larger than the toxophilite, the toxophilite takes a –4 penalty on her attack roll. The toxophilite must declare the use of this ability after the attack is announced, but before the roll is made. Unusually massive ranged weapons, such as boulders or ballista bolts, and ranged attacks by firearms or generated by natural attacks or spell effects can’t be deflected. This ability replaces endurance."
Effectively, a projectile in flight wouldn't be considered an unattended object until after the attack resolved, it seems.
Deflect Arrows isn't a readied action either. The Toxophilite is interesting, because it does use a readied action. The tricky part is that it isn't an attack that does damage, but something that deflects the arrow regardless of damage. Because, what would happen if you shot an arrow with an arrow, if it is possible? Then you'd need to bypass hardness of probably 5 and hp of probably 5 +10 per enhancement bonus of the arrow, while only doing half damage, because you are using a ranged weapon. And so, what's the use of wasting a readied action to still take damage from a barely chipped arrow?
The fact it's a class ability here shows it isn't a normal action, therefore a no. You can't normally ready an action to attack an arrow.
It’s a class ability to deflect arrows which is a stronger option than trying to destroy them. One doesn’t exclude the other.
I will voice my opinion on this topic and agree with the other posters who have expressed the opinion that the existing options for intercepting, damaging, deflecting, etc arrows is an indication to me that this is not something that can normally be done. Whether as a readied action or not.
There's no indication that you can ready an action to destroy an arrow in flight in the first place, so....no.
My reasoning is that it's such an incredibly weak tactic, that there's no reason not to allow it. And there are no rules saying you can't do it, and actual rules as to how you do it, so why not?
There are no rules that say you can specifically ready to attack an arrow flying through the air.
Pathfidner is a permissive rule set, it tells you what you're allowed to do (mostly), not what you're not allowed to do (again mostly, though they do have reminders for what you're not allowed to do).
That it's weak isn't a rules argument to allow it.
That there aren't rules saying you can't isn't an argument, that's not how Pathfidner rules are written.
And the fact that we have several rules on how to do the general thing that's being asked about indicates it takes a special ability via feats or class abilities to do this.
There are no rules that say you can specifically ready to attack an arrow flying through the air.
There are rules for smashing an object. An arrow, even in flight, is an object. Hence there are rules for it.
The only thing that's in question is whether it is an attended object or not. And there isn't any rule that explicitly says it is attended.
Also, it's questionable if you can smash an object with a piercing weapon, since you can't sunder with one. And the text implies that smashing and sundering are largely the same thing, except for one not being a combat maneuver, so regular arrows may be out of the question anyway.
It's disingenuous to say that the smashing an object rules clearly apply to an arrow in flight.
And again, you can't use the argument "the rules don't say". That's not an argument in Pathfinder, because it's not a prohibitive rule set.
With regard to the rules, all we can actually say is:
The rules do not specify anything in regard to this situation.
If we look at the existing rules for doing something to a projectile in flight it requires feats or special abilities. We do also have rules for smashing objects, though in my opinion they don't really apply here.
Based on the lack of specific rules, and looking at the rules within the context I would personally rule that you need a special ability to do something to a projectile in flight, in general.
But really, there isn't strong rules support for any position on this topic. If you want to rule as a GM that for your games it's allowed, that's perfectly fine.
Just don't claim that its clearly or explicitly supported by the rules.
What part of the smashing rules don’t apply to an arrow in flight? And all of the class and feat options for intercepting weapons are for deflecting, which is superior to smashing, so prove nothing about this not being an option.
There are actual problems with it though, like the piercing damage issue and the question of whether you can smash with a ranged weapon at all. But readying to smash an object in flight is just as supported as readying to attack a creature in flight.
Why not remove "range" from the equation. Can you ready an action to sunder a melee weapon that is about to hit you?
Don't forget that dueling parry is a thing in Ultimate Combat:
Each participant in a duel can take a special action called a dueling parry. This special action allows the duelist to deflect a blow from a melee or ranged attack directed at her. A dueling parry cannot deflect spell or firearm ranged attacks.
So, does the existence of dueling parry mean you can't ready to sunder a weapon?
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Yeah, I wouldn't let you use the trigger "weapon that's about to hit me" though clearly you can sunder a held melee weapon. I would allow a trigger for "I ready to sunder the weapon of the next person to attack me with a melee weapon in my reach".
The trigger and response part is the main problem.
Clearly you can sunder an arrow that is sitting on the floor or on table. Even held in hand.
The part where things change is because its in flight.
Targeting an arrow in flight doesn't have rules outside of specific existing abilities.
You're asking something on par with "I'd like to ready an action to sunder the bullet fired from a gun".
And my response is, normal people can't do that. You need a special ability to do so.
The far more efficient question/potential application is readying Mage Hand to catch a midair projectile. Let's look at this question from a flavor, balance, and mechanics angle:
Balance: Spending a standard action, even at low levels, to negate a single attack against an ally or yourself is fairly reasonable, especially considering the other things you could do with that action (provide cover with a tower shield, use Total Defense to get +4 AC to all attacks for a round, or just, you know, attack). It's unlikely to break anything, and would more allow for non-ranged characters to participate in an archery battle. Seems reasonable.
Flavor: What, exactly, is the projectile being 'attended' by? Attended, going by how it's typically referred to in-rules, is when another creature can do something to interfere with a weak spell (mage hand, etc) to counteract the effect by their own minimal effort. Also, it's just an awesome visual, the wizard catching an arrow inches away from their ally.
Mechanics: Deflect Arrows seems to be the most reasonable comparison to this. It allows you to, as a free action 1/round, negate a projectile fired at you. Now, this isn't quite the same as, say, using Mage Hand, as it only affects yourself, but also doesn't require any action investment. So, the question then stands: is there another example where a feat allows you to do something you already could, just with less action investment? As a matter of fact, there are. The first specific example I could find (though there are lots of others) is Panther Claw. Panther Style gives you the ability to make a retaliatory strike as a swift action. Panther Claw, the next feat in the series, allows you to do so as a free action several times per round. While a standard action is more valuable than a Swift most of the time, the feat also allows you to do it multiple times per round, instead of just once, so it still roughly correlates.
Overall? Sure, why not? It's cool, makes sense from a flavor perspective, is hardly going to break anything, and there is precedence for feats mainly allowing for just better action economy (free action 1/round instead of standard is a huge jump in any case).
Mage hand doesn’t work because it doesn’t stop a moving object. It takes an additional move action to move the object. So, with mage hand people would just get shot with arrows that happen to have a spell cast on them.
And I don’t know why someone would think an arrow magically stops being an object just because it is in flight. Does a dragon stop being a creature when it is in flight?
If you allow this, there are going to be very significant repercussions. For a couple thousand gp in wands of Mage Hand and some level 1 hirelings, you can shut down a level 20 archer completely. It's wholly imbalanced because it allows no save and no real cost-efficient counterplay. Deflect Arrows is different because it requires investment and, far more importantly, works only against attacks directed against you.
I could've sworn there was a spell description that specifically clarifies that projectiles are attended objects, but I'm still looking for it.
If you read up, you’ll see that mage hand doesn’t work. The spell doesn’t affect the movement of an object until you take an additional move action.
It’s also worth noting that no archer worth worrying about fires only one arrow per round.
What's the armor class of an arrow in flight? Should it be higher due to its speed? What about a bullet from a pistol?
If you read up, you’ll see that mage hand doesn’t work. The spell doesn’t affect the movement of an object until you take an additional move action.
It’s also worth noting that no archer worth worrying about fires only one arrow per round.
1. Irrelevant; there are other cantrips and first-level spells that can accomplish the same thing.
2. This is why you have a handful of level 1 hirelings all readying actions to interrupt the Nth arrow fired by the archer.
What's the armor class of an arrow in flight? Should it be higher due to its speed? What about a bullet from a pistol?
This is part of my whole point.
We just don't have any rules for how to treat an arrow in flight, aside from a few specific abilities that clearly outline how they interact with that arrow (to stop it).
If the situation were you readied an action to cast time stop as an archer fires their arrow, I guess you would catch it mid flight. And then, because it is frozen in time relative to you, you could try to find something that would destroy or otherwise deflect the arrow (although it's hard because time stop doesn't directly let you act on objects. The easiest thing I can think of would be casting a wall spell in it's path such that it would hit the wall).
1. Irrelevant; there are other cantrips and first-level spells that can accomplish the same thing.
Can't think of a single cantrip that could be useful. What did you have in mind? And if they are burning 1st level spells to counter a single arrow, then that sounds pretty balanced to me, though I can't think of one of these that'd be very effective either, but there are a lot of 1st level spells, so I may just not be thinking of what it would be.
What's the armor class of an arrow in flight? Should it be higher due to its speed? What about a bullet from a pistol?This is part of my whole point.
We just don't have any rules for how to treat an arrow in flight, aside from a few specific abilities that clearly outline how they interact with that arrow (to stop it).
Armor Class: Objects are easier to hit than creatures because they don't usually move, but many are tough enough to shrug off some damage from each blow. An object's Armor Class is equal to 10 + its size modifier (see Table: Size and Armor Class of Objects) + its Dexterity modifier. An inanimate object has not only a Dexterity of 0 (–5 penalty to AC), but also an additional –2 penalty to its AC.
I'd probably put the size at fine, for a +8 bonus. The only questionable thing is how much dexterity bonus it has. The text says that objects "usually" don't move, which means that sometimes they will be.
Can't think of a single cantrip that could be useful. What did you have in mind?
Prestidigitation or Scoop to create an object in the path of the arrow (Prestidigitation specifically creates a 'fragile' object, but you still can't shoot an arrow through it and hit something behind). Potentially Spark depending on how much HP an arrow has.
I would say that this is ridiculous in game terms, because readying an action to cast Shield in front of an arrow spell doesn't let you automatically deflect it- it just gives the normal +4 AC. You shouldn't be able to ready an action to block or grab an arrow because reacting to where the arrow is headed in the middle of combat requires superhuman reflexes (an arrow can travel 100 feet before a human can process that the drawstring's been released, much less cast a spell about it).
Reacting to the archer aiming at you by casting a spell that completely makes you an invalid target, like casting Wall of Stone between yourself and him, is vastly more feasible. But "intercepting" the arrow mid-flight isn't something normal humans can do, so it shouldn't be assumed possible without a feat or class feature letting you do it.
I don't disagree with the above objections to this, but I think there is another one as well.
I don't think there is a 'time' when this could happen (with the exception of special abilities.)
You can ready an action in response to go off in response to someone attacking you, in which case it resolves before the attack, but you can't ready an action that will take place during someone's attack (which is what this would have to be.) 'When he attacks me' is a valid trigger for ready but 'After he attacks me but before he resolves his attack' isn't.
As for the original question regarding magnetic field, while it doesn't say, I would only have it resolve at the beginning and ending of a creatures turn. I wouldn't let someone tumble through an enemies square multiple times trailing a pile of anvils and requiring multiple saves for each for example (although you could certainly make them save against each anvil once, which would be pretty awesome). Beyond that most ammunition wouldn't primarily be made out of metal, so magnetic field wouldn't apply to a typical arrow.
I would call it an attended object, since everything that requires an attack to hit the arrow uses the shooter's attack roll or some ability/statistic of the shooter.
Can't think of a single cantrip that could be useful. What did you have in mind?Prestidigitation or Scoop to create an object in the path of the arrow (Prestidigitation specifically creates a 'fragile' object, but you still can't shoot an arrow through it and hit something behind). Potentially Spark depending on how much HP an arrow has.
Nothing says the arrow stops if it hits a fragile object though. It'd certainly be up to GM adjudication. Scoop is not exactly official, as it comes from a blog. But both are still questionable, because they don't have autotargetting and there is no mechanic for you to conjure it exactly in the path of a projectile.
Damaging an arrow is actually surprisingly hard, because it has hardness and at least 5 hit points. But using spark on an arrow sounds fun from the other side. Cast it on your ally's arrows and see if you can do a little burning damage to people he hits.
...you can't ready an action that will take place during someone's attack
Why?
'When he attacks me' is a valid trigger for ready but 'After he attacks me but before he resolves his attack' isn't.
I don't see why you'd think that, but you could just say 'after the arrow leaves him but before it reaches me'.
As far as I know, there are no general rules for catching an object in flight. Which is weird now that I think about it. People in Golarion can't play baseball, I guess. And catching is quite a bit different than smashing.
The point is that there are rules for smashing an unattended object in flight. We know what rolls to make. But we don't know what the rules are to do something like place a tiny object in the path of a tiny object. Doing something like that is pure GM adjudication. Simply saying no to it might be boring and lazy, but simply allowing it to happen without a challenge is just as lazy and also potentially overpowered.
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But both are still questionable, because they don't have autotargetting and there is no mechanic for you to conjure it exactly in the path of a projectile.
I agree with you that they don't (or shouldn't) work, but I disagree with your reasoning. You appeal to a lack of permissiveness by implying that one can't position a Prestidigitation'd object directly in the path of a flying arrow even though the rules don't forbid it, but then appeal to that same permissiveness you've denied a moment later by insisting that one must be able to react to events that humans can't react to because the rules don't forbid it.
I would personally say that, in mechanical game terms, the arrow is never "in flight". In one instant it is in the archer's possession, and in the next it is sticking out of your body. You may create an instant where the arrow is "in flight" by, say, stopping time, but this does not cause the arrow to not be an attended item in that artificial moment.
It's like insisting there must be a point in a horse's movement where it isn't in contact with the ground and therefore must make Acrobatics checks. Sure, there's scientifically a point in a horse's gallop where all of its feet leave the ground, but for game purposes there is no instant where it does not have solid footing.
I agree with you that they don't (or shouldn't) work, but I disagree with your reasoning. You appeal to a lack of permissiveness by implying that one can't position a Prestidigitation'd object directly in the path of a flying arrow even though the rules don't forbid it, but then appeal to that same permissiveness you've denied a moment later by insisting that one must be able to react to events that humans can't react to because the rules don't forbid it.
It's different in that we have rules for one but not for the other. We have the AC, hardness and hitpoints of the object. We have a roll that we know we need to make. But your case of simply letting someone do something without challenge is too strong to not have rules suggesting you can do something like that.
But this real life business is just silly. The game breaks from real life all the time. Falling from 30 feet will kill the average person. But the average 5th level character can survive that almost every time. They don't have to take a feat to survive that kind of thing, despite how unrealistic it is. The game doesn't need to be realistic. It needs to be fun and somewhat balanced.
It feels like "catch or deflect an arrow in flight" should be a wild talent available to telekineticists, rather than a thing one can do by default with access to mage hand or telekinesis.
Does the readied action trigger if one readies an action to feed his sword to a mage if the mage casts and the mage goes on to cast a quickened spell?
Same question with deploying an aura or an Inquisitor passing a Judgement?
My reasoning is that if one can interrupt a swift action, I see no reason why one couldn't try to hit an arrow in flight provided he was ready to do so beforehand.
This is a silly thread. Almost silly enough to smurf.
EDIT: OH NO, It's too late, I've gone and done it now!
My face! What have you done to my beautiful porcine profile?
Okay, how about a different angle? What would the appropriate amount of investment for reading an action to smash/catch a projectile be? It has to be less than a feat, since a feat lets you negate a projectile 1/round for free (deflect arrows), or at higher levels, use an AoO to deflect "any number." Would it be a trait?
A feat that has a prerequisite of Improved Unarmed Strike and requires you to keep a hand empty lets you free-action deflect a single ranged attack directed at you.
An ability that lets you ready an action to deflect a single ranged attack targeted at anybody would probably be worth one feat, sans prerequisites.
Okay, how about a different angle? What would the appropriate amount of investment for reading an action to smash/catch a projectile be? It has to be less than a feat, since a feat lets you negate a projectile 1/round for free (deflect arrows), or at higher levels, use an AoO to deflect "any number." Would it be a trait?
Well considering snatch arrows does exactly that, and is a feat, AND requires deflect arrows... I'd say you're not right on that.
Catching an arrow does the same thing as deflecting it, really. It negates an attack. So it's not worth less at all.
Snatch arrows allows you to immediately throw back any prpjectile weapons you catch, though, which is arguably the main feature of the ability.
And it still is only a free action, for both Deflect and Catch, not a Standard, which is an absolutely massive disparity in action economy. With the feat, you can always negate a single projectile fired at you, regardless of what you’re doing in your turn. The scenario being presented is that you spend the bulk of your turn to maybe negate a single projectile.
They have feats and spells for getting around ranged attacks. If they wanted you to get around ranged attacks without feats or spells they'd have rules for it, just like they have rules for allowing you to help avoid melee attacks by using aid another.
Maybe you want to make the argument that for all the years that 3.5 and Pathfinder existed they forgot to make a rule adjustment. In theory that could be true, but until it's in the book, it's not a rule, at least without heavy implication that it was an intent.